3 IRISH GUYS in Colombia

Cork

I am no fan of either SF or the IRA.

I think that neither of them done anything for the case of Irish republicanism.

But the 3 in Columbia have to get due process.

I still think that SF/IRA need to offer an explanation to what they were doing out there.

But - I think they need to get a fair hearing and they are indeed innocent until proven otherwise.

Victor

Originally posted by Hobart
You seem to ignore that representitives of your government are from Sinn Fein.

Who?

Originally posted by Hobart
I also believe that it is now illegal to elect anybody who is a known criminal or a member of an illegal organisation.

No. In some places current prisoners aren't allowed run for elction, that is all.

Pompey Magnus

Originally posted by daveirl
Sinn Féin are still terrorists and criminals. They refuse to obey the law of the land and don't agree to fundamental sections of our constitution.

Can we hear an attack along these lines aimed at the United Irishmen and Wolfe Tone as leader of an illegal armed force in the British empire, government of the land ? what about the Collins, De Valera and Connolly not committed to exclusively democratic means, will we hear Bertie and co. condeming their illegal actions? Fianna fail entering Dail Eireann with handguns in their pocket sounds unusually like " armalite in one hand, ballotpaper in the other" if you ask me! Maybe The French Resistance fighting the Vichy government, I'm sure they didn't agree with fundamental sectins of THEIR constitution AND they committed political assassinations..ooooh naughty Free French. Surely Afghanistans Mujahideen deserve a mention, I mean they slaughter hundreds of prisoners of war and have scaled up opium production! lets not pick and choose who we condemn here, lets be fair across the board.

Meh

Originally posted by spandauballet
Can we hear an attack along these lines aimed at the United Irishmen and Wolfe Tone as leader of an illegal armed force in the British empire, government of the land ?

The British government in Ireland in 1798 was not democratic and did not govern with the consent of the Irish people. Unlike today's Republic.

what about the Collins, De Valera and Connolly not committed to exclusively democratic means, will we hear Bertie and co. condeming their illegal actions?

The IRA during the War of Independence did have a democratic mandate from a majority of the Irish people -- completely unlike today's Sinn Fein/IRA. 5% in the last general election is very far from a mandate to wage war.

Fianna fail entering Dail Eireann with handguns in their pocket sounds unusually like " armalite in one hand, ballotpaper in the other" if you ask me!

I'll grant you that one. But how does Fianna Fail's behaviour 70 years ago excuse Sinn Fein today? FF have at least learned something over the years; SF are still stuck in the last century.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

growler

Meh : "The IRA during the War of Independence did have a democratic mandate from a majority of the Irish people -- completely unlike today's Sinn Fein/IRA. 5% in the last general election is very far from a mandate to wage war"

this is quite impossible to prove or otherwise, most Irish people at the start of the century were reasonably content with their lot or were too busy trying to do work/ raise faimilies / run the farms etc. to give 2 seconds though to such lofty ideals as an independent ireland. It was by no means a mass uprising , in fact i seem to recall that only the force of the british reprisals made it a popular cause , if the leaders of 1916 had been jailed for 10 years not shot , the outcome could have been very different I think.

Meh

Originally posted by growler
this is quite impossible to prove or otherwise, most Irish people at the start of the century were reasonably content with their lot or were too busy trying to do work/ raise faimilies / run the farms etc. to give 2 seconds though to such lofty ideals as an independent ireland.

Is the 1918 general election enough proof for you? 73 seats out of 105 is a mandate; 5 out of 166 (or 4 out of 18 in NI) isn't.

Pompey Magnus

Originally posted by Meh
Is the 1918 general election enough proof for you? 73 seats out of 105 is a mandate; 5 out of 166 (or 4 out of 18 in NI) isn't.

what growler was saying is actually correct, the IRA members were pelted with fruit and abuse by Dubliners after their surrender:

"We got a very hostile reception along the way. At this stage we had very little sympathy in the country as a whole."
Joseph Sweeney (member of the IRA in 1916).

so when the rebellion occured there was NOT a democratic mandate from the Irish people alot of whom had relatives in the British army, it was against the wishes of the majority. also wrt the "mandate" given in 1918 the Home Rule party was a shambles and didn't even contest 25 regions against SF so the choice was quite limited indeed!.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Pompey Magnus

ok. I am not an expert on the subject or any kind of spokesman for people from the north, but here's my understanding, and please correct me in anything I have wrong here...punishment beatings (shootings I believe are almost exclusive to unionist paramilitaries nowadays) by the IRA were aimed at criminals and drug dealers and other scum of the society who, due to the inefficiency by the RUC in nationalist areas, were not being halted in their activities and so a vacuum of "protector" of the community was filled by those with the local power to do so.Also I don't believe this has anything to do with the struggle for independence, just a by-product. (I also do NOT agree with them, they don't work as crime is high in these areas, and I believe the new police force, with further improvements will bring an end to them).

Drugs dealing, I have yet to hear any real link between the Provos and drug dealing apart from Direct Action Against Drugs which targets drug dealers to keep nationalist areas clean and not to keep a monopoly.btw of course there is a direct and obvious link between drug dealing and Loyalist paramilitaries.

growler

couple of points , meh it's revisionist (ish) to say an election in 1918 prove a mandate was there in 1916 ..it simply doesn't , the cause of irish nationalism in that period was not truly popular until the executions of the rising's leaders. Anyway it's a bit of a moot point as there weren't any national opinion polls in those days , so we can't know for sure , anecdotally i believe it wasn't truly popular based on my own readings of irish history and chats in the pub.

from spandau "inefficiency by the RUC in nationalist areas "

lol , the threat of a bullet, petrol bomb, riot etc may have slightly impinged on their ability to curb the drug dealing and joyriding etc. in nationalist areas.

on the drugs issue , again i can't point you to any facts , but i know that in cork you need to purchase permission from the ira to deal drugs. I have heard the same said of Dublin and Limerick. They don't want to gett their hands dirty with drugs but aren't above taking a share of the cash.

Pompey Magnus

Originally posted by growler
.

from spandau "inefficiency by the RUC in nationalist areas "

lol , the threat of a bullet, petrol bomb, riot etc may have slightly impinged on their ability to curb the drug dealing and joyriding etc. in nationalist areas.

I think that the above is as a result, not a cause of the actual inadequacies of the sectarian police force. you treat a dog like sh*t for long enough and you get bitten.

karpovx

Please......
is not COLUMBIA

is COLOMBIA.

cheers.

Cork

Originally posted by growler


on the drugs issue , again i can't point you to any facts , but i know that in cork you need to purchase permission from the ira to deal drugs. I have heard the same said of Dublin and Limerick. They don't want to gett their hands dirty with drugs but aren't above taking a share of the cash.

I really do not know if this is true but the IRA needs to bisband.

All gangs then need to be taken on.