Was CJH better than Bertie?

bertiebowl

Here's the poll folks......was CJH better for the country (don't get me wrong - I think he's the antichrist) than Bumbling Bertie ?

Lets look at the facts:

CJH has some sort of brain

CJH actually had opinions

CJH would fight for what he believed in

Bertie is a useless a*slicking Bushy boy

Bertie has never sat anywhere other than the fence

Bertie thinks its okay for him to drive at 95mph while the common people would get banned for it

Shinji

Bertie just follows the paths of corruption laid down by his mentor. If CJH hadn't got away with so much for so long, Bertie wouldn't even dream of chancing his arm.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that once you get past the cunning weasel on the exterior, the man is utterly charmless and incompetent as a statesman and national leader though. I cringe every time I see him at an international meeting - my god, is this really the man chosen to represent me and my nation?

Victor

Better at being good or better at being bad?

Bertie is largely passive, only reacting when he has to (including when his mates want him to).

CJH was pure malace (refer to my previous posts about CJH and the Haemophiliacs).

DapperGent

I dunno while Bertie may be zero gravitas itself at least he's not Machavelian (sp?) Robert Mugabe-esque gangster.

Washout

Its kind of a difficult one to answer with respect to political achievments and such...CJH had to deal in a harsher social environment as it was back then.

Bertie is indeed a very passive taoiseach.....if CJH had to deal with the Charlie Bowl he would have never backed down on that or other issues.

Cork

I think that CJH did stand up and remained neutral during the Falklands war.

He started social parnership and the peace process.

He took money off individuals - THIS WAS WRONG - but at least it was not tax payers money.

CJH let himself down by accepting money from others.

CJH had great potential. He wasted a lot of his talent. But he was not a bad Taoiseach.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
I think that CJH did stand up and remained neutral during the Falklands war.

Whoopi-do-da-day. How relevant is this to the greater scheme of things? Are you advocating we should have attacked the British or the Argentines?

Originally posted by Cork
He started social parnership and the peace process.

And you come to this conclusion how? I thought that you attributed the Peace process to Reynolds previously. Did John hume have nothing to do with it?
Originally posted by Cork [/i]
CJH had great potential. [/QUOTE] And seeing as he was Toiseach 4 times, how come he didn't use this potential?

Cork

I think that it easy to knock CJH. It is so easy to kick people when they are down.

I think that Vincent Browne was one of biggest critics of CJH (long before the mob started) but Vincent wrote in the SB Post a number of week ago about CJH.

CJH did a lot of good. He should not have taken money from Ben Dunne. But, he did a lot of positive things for this country.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
I think that it easy to knock CJH. It is so easy to kick people when they are down.

Down in his nice mansion in the countryside, his tax-free stud farm, his helicopter rides and free Aer Lingus flights?

Originally posted by Cork
CJH did a lot of good. He should not have taken money from Ben Dunne. But, he did a lot of positive things for this country.

I'm sorry but I can't really see a lot of it.

Cork

Down in his nice mansion in the countryside, his tax-free stud farm, his helicopter rides and free Aer Lingus flights?

Stud Farms are tax free - even when we had a socialist mininister of finance.

CJH introduced free public transport for the old.

New Labour recently done this in the UK.

I think it is easy to moan, groan and be a begrudger.

CJH did a lot of Good. Sure, he had faults.

But I think that he got this nations finances in order. Our debt levels were out of control.

But as we can see with Roy Keane groaners at the monent - eaten bread is soon forgotten.

Certain newspapers and witch hunts can have as many lead articles as they want - but they cannot ignore contribution.

What contribution did the Rainbow government make to the OAPS?
What megre increases were they given?

& did not a socialist prefer the Waldolf in New York as opposed to Fitzpatricks?

CJH did some wrongs. But he did some good. Some of our politicians squandered public money - yet why is this never debated?

too close to the bone??

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
Stud Farms are tax free - even when we had a socialist mininister of finance.

Wasn't it also introduced by CJH?

Originally posted by Cork
CJH introduced free public transport for the old.

But would have done better increasing pensions to the same amount. Instead of sitting in their frozen hovels, old people got to ride around on trains all day to keep warm.

Originally posted by Cork
New Labour recently done this in the UK.

And this is relevant how?

Originally posted by Cork
I think it is easy to moan, groan and be a begrudger.

I think you occassionally indulge in it yourself.

Originally posted by Cork
CJH did a lot of Good.

Yet you have difficulty listing these.

Originally posted by Cork
But I think that he got this nations finances in order. Our debt levels were out of control.

In part because Charlie and his mates weren't paying tax. And wasn't Bertie MoF at the time. And debt isn't a problem when you have a corresponding asset.

Originally posted by Cork
But as we can see with Roy Keane groaners at the monent - eaten bread is soon forgotten.

And this is relevant how? When was Keane Taoiseach? Oh sorry you mean when CJH took the round of appluase after that football match, when CJH captained the Irish team? :P

Originally posted by Cork
Certain newspapers and witch hunts can have as many lead articles as they want - but they cannot ignore contribution.

Please tell me that this is a sentence.

Originally posted by Cork
What contribution did the Rainbow government make to the OAPS? What megre increases were they given? & did not a socialist prefer the Waldolf in New York as opposed to Fitzpatricks?

How does this compare Bertie with Charlie? I sure you will find your answer at http://portal.welfare.ie/index.xml And what does soemones hotel preference have to do with the comparision. (And who is this "socialist" or are you referring to the Taoiseachs' socialite buddies?)

Originally posted by Cork
CJH did some wrongs.

I think he did an awful lot of wrongs and history has shown it. He condemned divorce when he was having an affair. He improperly took money. He didn't pay his taxes. His response to queries was to browbeat people.

Originally posted by Cork
Some of our politicians squandered public money - yet why is this never debated?

Are you saying CJH provided value for money to the Haemophiliacs? And didn't CJH donate government money to a private airport in the middle of the countryside? (Knock) And spend nearly €50m doing up Government Buildings? (So he could pee in warmth).

Originally posted by Cork
too close to the bone??

For who?

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
I think that it easy to knock CJH. It is so easy to kick people when they are down.

Yes, but when the reason that youre down is because you were a corrupt politician who got caught, then such a kicking is in order.

You make it sound like CJ should not be criticised for all those terrible things he's been caught for...just because he's been caught for them.

jc

dathi1

The last King of Ireland.

Victor

Originally posted by dathi1
The last King of Ireland.

An Ireland where royalty is hated.

PH01

Bertie Boy is a different type of leader. He wouldn't be a man with vision - that's not his game. He's more of a chairman, waits until things happen and then makes his decision.
Also, FF wouldn't be where it is today with him. He took control of a party which was badly fractured and was in real danger of splitting beyond repair. He stopped the rot and won back seats for the soldiers of destiny. This is more that can be said for CJH who it could be argued was the worst thing that happened to FF.
However, there is trouble ahead for Bertie. This government isn't performing, bar for one or two ministers. It need to be shake-up, and this needs to happen in the next couple of months. If Bertie doesn't do this, then his job is on the line.

Cork

Are you saying CJH provided value for money to the Haemophiliacs? And didn't CJH donate government money to a private airport in the middle of the countryside? (Knock) And spend nearly €50m doing up Government Buildings? (So he could pee in warmth).

Government buildings were a good investment.

Connaght Regional Airport was a great investment which did not cost the Irish taxpayer much. I think that the West of Ireland deserved an airport.

He also iniated Temple bar & the IFSC.

Compare this to the list of achievements of John Bruton as Taoiseach or to that of Sinn Fein over the last 30 years.

The
Haemophiliacs deserved better compansation. But Bertie is speeding up compansation to victims of abuse in instsitutions that the state were responsible for & Bertie is being criticised for this.

CJH did some wrongs. But - you cannot ignore his achievements.

Bertie too has achievements eg the Good Friday Agreement. But I hope Sinn Fein begins to choose democracy and finally announces the war is over.

I hope the March tomorrow will be their road to Damascus.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Connaght Regional Airport was a great investment which did not cost the Irish taxpayer much. I think that the West of Ireland deserved an airport.

Because as everyone knows, Shannon is not actually an airport in the West of Ireland.

Oh - no - wait. It is.

West Ireland obviously deserved a *second* airport.

But hang on...there was an airport in Galway. Still is in fact. Just as well Thats not in the West either. Nor is Sligo for that matter.

So exactly why did the West of Ireland deserve a fourth airport?

Compare this to the list of achievements of John Bruton as Taoiseach or to that of Sinn Fein over the last 30 years.

Yes - that makes sense. WHen trying to decide if Bertie is better or worse than Charlie, we should compare Charlie to John Bruton.

Cork - quit trying to just defend your corrupt heroes, and stick to the damned topic if you wish to continue posting on it.

CJH did some wrongs. But - you cannot ignore his achievements.

Yup, and Hitler resurrected Germany's failed economy. That doesnt make him a good guy.

Give the choice between someone who is average, and someone who will do great good and show great corruption....I'd rather go with the average person thanks.

I am not ignoring CJ's achievements, but you seem to want to use those achievements to ignore his corruption.

I hope the March tomorrow will be their road to Damascus.

Cork. I will say this slowly and clearly one more time.

Stay. On. Topic.

Gottit?

jc

Cork

So exactly why did the West of Ireland deserve a fourth airport?

It was an investment in infrastructure. It is providing a service. It is an international airport that many people use.

It was sneered at but it is an investment in the future. I think that it did not cost the Irish Tax payer a lot. But I think that Knock is not very near Shannon. I think Galway & Sligo are regional airports but Knock can take larger planes which all benefits the local economy.

I am not ignoring CJ's achievements, but you seem to want to use those achievements to ignore his corruption.

No - I think that CJH was wrong for accepting monies from others.

But I think it is time to forgive.

It is about time we looked at CJHs achievements. He has been vilified in the press - for doing something many politicians have done prior and subsequent to him.

It was a wrong. Yet people still harp on about it. I think that we need as a nation have to come to terms with CJH and forgive him.

We need also to forgive Eamonn Casey.

There are people in this country who live on the moral high ground. It is about time - we grew up as a nation and accepted those around us have did wrongs and made errors.


I think CJH was a leader who had a vision. But he should have involved more in decision making. Bertie like Tony Blair - consults more but I think Tony and Bertie worry far too much about the media.

I think that Bertie needs to spell out objectives of government. He should have targets on health, housing and infrastructe.

He needs to forget the media and openion polls. These are inconsequential and try and solve this countrys poblems.

I think Albert was better than either CJH or Bertie. He played a great part in the peace process and for our economy.

Yet people disliked him for using the word "C**p".

The Dublin media never gave him a chance. This is the same media that never properly investigated any corruption in our
society.

People did not like Albert because he was from the country and was a successful business man.

Albert was one of the first to come out to voice concerns over CJH.

So, Bertie of CJH - I'd pick Bertie.

But Bertie or Albert (Bonkey I know I am off the topic)

Albert.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
But I think it is time to forgive.

I'm sorry, but I actually have this strange belief that all people who break the law should be treated equally under the eyes of the law.

Haughey comitted a crime. He should not be forgiven. He should be tried and sentenced properly. Once he has received and fulfilled the terms of his sentencing, I will be willing to forgive him should he apologise.

Its a classic facet of humanity - ordinary crooks should be punished, but really successful crooks should get off more easily.

No thanks.

jc

jc

RainyDay

He took money off individuals - THIS WAS WRONG - but at least it was not tax payers money.

By failing to pay tax on his income, he effectively took taxpayers money.

Meh

Originally posted by Cork
I think that we need as a nation have to come to terms with CJH and forgive him.

Forgiveness requires contrition. I have yet to hear a single word of apology from Charlie. Has he even admitted he did anything wrong?

Cork

Originally posted by RainyDay
By failing to pay tax on his income, he effectively took taxpayers money.

Agreed.

Forgiveness requires contrition. I have yet to hear a single word of apology from Charlie. Has he even admitted he did anything wrong?

Do all people who evade taxation make apologies?

CJH did wrong but he also did good.

I think that he has suffered thru public vilification and an intrusion by tribunerals into his private life.

Where these tribunerals warranted?

Or should we have a faster methods of investigation?

Why relevence has CJHs private life to anybody outside the Haughy family?

But has that stopped our "Quality" media from stooping to gutterpress levels?

Yet - people are demanding more retribution and apologies from CJH?

Yet - Why can't we get aplogies from Geoge Bush for carpet bombing or SF for not condemning violence?

How much are these tribunerals going to cost?

How many Knock airports? 20-30?

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Do all people who evade taxation make apologies?

No, but we dont have you telling us its time to forgive those other who evaded taxation either. Which is what we were talking about - forgiveness.

CJH did wrong but he also did good.

You've already said this. Its not the issue. They dont offset each other off.

Its not a case of "well, you broke this law, but you're basically a good guy so we wont bother about it". Much and all though you may wish it to be so for CJH, the simple fact is that he did wrong and you seem to think he should get away with it - that silly little inconveniences like the law are for lesser mortals. As long as you're the corrupt ex-leader of Cork's favourite party, then as long as you did some good, the bad doesnt matter.


Sorry Cork...you can repeat yourself ad nauseum, but I doubt you'll convince a single soul here that we should excuse criminal behaviour for such a weak reason.

I mean - Saddam Hussein supplies something like 17 million people every month with food aid (despite the media claims of him starving his people). 17 million - thats several times the population of this country.
Does this mean that we should excuse Saddam for his "bad" actions.

He hasnt apologised, he hasnt been punished...just like Charlie. But he has tried to make sure that 17 million people havent starved. Thats a pretty good action. Lets all just forgive and forget, huh?

Where these tribunerals warranted?

I cannot believe you are asking that question. Were they warranted? OF course they bloody were. Did you miss the bit where they found all the evidence about corruption...which is what they were there for?

How could they have not been warranted? Oh - hang on - I know - via the Cork argument : Our politicians have tried to do a good job, so we should forgive any criminal activities on their part.

Give me a break.

Or should we have a faster methods of investigation?

The alternative to those tribunals was a full criminal investiugation, which would have had your poor beloved Saint Haughey behind bars. Stuff your "humiliation", the man would be branded a proper criminal.

You take your pick Cork. I thought you'd have been all in favour of tribuinals, as they more or less ensure that criminal charges can never be brought against these criminals.

Its as close to forgiveness as any of those crooks will ever get, and its a damn sight closer than they deserve.

Why relevence has CJHs private life to anybody outside the Haughy family?

If CJ's (or any politician's) private life involves illegal activities, then it is of interest to the police for a start. It is also of interest to those who he was supposed to represent - you know - the people of Ireland?

Yet - people are demanding more retribution and apologies from CJH?

What apology have we received Cork? Where has CJ once stood up and say "yes, I abused my position, I am deeply sorry, and I wish to make amends" ??? Never that I recall. I've heard "our representative should not face these allegations cause the poor chappy is sick", and I've heard "hasnt the poor man suffered enough" from aplogists who seem to think that running the country puts you above the law, but I have not once heard an apology, or seen Haughey make restitution.

So we are not looking for more anything. That implues something has already been given, and it most certainly has not.

How much are these tribunerals going to cost?/B]

I;ve lost track of the numbers of times posters have already pointed out to you that the tribunals in recent years have brought in more revenue than they cost.

In short - they cost the taxpayer a big fat nothing. They actually were a source of revenue.

You seem either unable or unwilling to grasp this fact, and its not difficult, so I can only assume you are deliberately acting thick on this point.

jc

Cork

I am not making excuses for CJH. I think that he did wrong.

But comparing CJH to Saddam is OTT.

criminal behaviour

Tribunerals are not courts of Law. The planning tribunerals are focused on Dublin - What about Cork, Limerick or Galway?

Garret D Good got loans written off. So did CJH.

Policians of various partys got handouts.

But are there various degrees of wrong doing?
Are there various degrees of morality?
Who sets these standards?

Planning abuses need to be investigated, the blood scabndals need investigation.

But witchhunts and hounding need to be avoided.

We need to get at the facts - but tribunerals as they are presently constituted are expensive and are prolonged.

Will they be worth it in the end?

Maybe

Cork

I really do not have much to add on this subject - but I think the treatment he got in Cork at Jack Lynchs funeral showed poorly on Cork people.

I think - he deserves to be fairly treated. "For he has not Sinned - Cast the first stone".

Thank God - The Irish were not around during that Bible eposode.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
Why relevence has CJHs private life to anybody outside the Haughy family?

Because Haughey took it on himself to comment on other peoples lives - the first divorce referendum, the haemophiliacs and the "hairshirt" comment come to mind.