Gaeilge-Irish, should it be restored?

Gearoid

I started a similar post like this in the Irish language section but this is a more political angle on the subject.

the question is should Irish be restored, and should it be the state's responsility? say hey or naye and then give an explanation for ur answer.

Gearoid

My own opinion is that it should because this country needs an identity of its own . Culturally we are turning into the backwash of the US and UK. The most major pillar of identity is language and since Catholicism is losing importance as a major part of our Identity hopefully Irish will rise up to take its place.
Ireland without Irish would be like France without French, the longer nothing is done the worse things will get. At the moment we dont know wat we are except when the World cup comes around.

richindub2

If people wanted to use it they would, theres no point in forcing it on them.

I think in schools Irish should be expanded into a study of our history / old celtic legends / culture etc. Might get more people interested in it; nearly everyone I know just switches off when they go into irish class at the moment as they feel its rather useless / pointless. If there isnt some drastic change in the way its taught I cant see it living on for much longer really.

mike65

As one should'nt impose a culture or creed on the unwilling, I take a free-market approach to this sort of thing. Namely if the ppl see a point or feel the need then they can learn the Irish language but if ppl dont then they should'nt have to. The states job is'nt to tell anyone to be Catholic or white, it should'nt be involved in language either.

Mike.

oeNeo

I agree with Rich that it shouldn't be forced on people. If you want to speak the language then fair enough but a lot of people (myself included) don't like the language. I also don't care much for Irish history, I find it very boring!

Turnip

Originally posted by Gearoid
The most major pillar of identity is language and since Catholicism is losing importance as a major part of our Identity hopefully Irish will rise up to take its place.

This is rubbish, English was the language through which the 19th century nationalist movement operated. O'Casey, Shaw, Wilde, Synge, Yeats etc all wrote in English. Did Beckett or Joyce write in Irish? No, the Irish language was an important catalyst which gave our writers the edge over the dull English literature of the time. Irish is there as a secondary language for those who love it for its own sake.

Éomer of Rohan

I think that although Irish is important in a national identity, we should define ourselves as different from the US and UK by striving for socialism and eradicating any hold which the old age Imperial and new Neo Colonial powers have over us - that would define a united workers Eire. Using common sense dictates that Irish is NOT our national language, and being very gifted in oration, I would not be given to learn a new language - non-knowledge of Irish should not pose any barrier for example to the entry into politics BUT at the same time knowledge of the language should be rewarded with incentives by the government, meaning that sometime in the distant future Irish could be phased back into use as the national language and English reduced to it's use in other countries - ie Air Traffic Control, study of English literature, Naval control etc. As to the study of Irish History, I must agree that 800 years of continual pointless bloodshed is boring - having had to go through 5 years of schooling in just that, it should be up to the student what they study - choosing between Continental history, colonial history, superpower history, the world wars, medieval times et cetera.

sceptre

Catholicism was never a badge to uniquely identify us (the few hundred million others prevented this). Neither was it really a badge to actually identify us (we still have some Irish Protestants).

I realise I'm being a bit simplistic here (believe me, I'm not being sarcastic or anything near it) but Ireland is still irish without the irish language (as opposed to the current language of the Irish, which is, well english) in the same way that France would still be France without french. France without wine, garlic and baguettes, now that wouldn't be France.

There are two examples of successful language revival in the past 120 years. Wales and Denmark. Denmark is obviously the more successful, given that almost the entire country now has Danish as a first language (up from close to 1% 120 years ago). Welsh is probably a more appropriate case for us to emulate should we wish to revive Irish as a tongue, given that English is not going to be abandoned as a main language, the nationalism necessary for the success of Danish is not present and television (with all those English-language channels) is rather more available now than it was in 1880.

(there's a third: Israel. Israel is in a different case though as there are quite a few unique reasons for the success of Hebrew)

I don't personally hold any great allegiance to the Irish language. I quite like its sound (compared to say, some of the Slavic tongues) and I like its syntax (compared to say Japanese). In other words, I like it but not just (or even) because it's Irish. I wouldn't say that language is the "most major pillar of identity", I'd say it's merely the most obvious. An English-speaking majority never caused any major problems for our national identity 80 years ago.

pickarooney

Slightly OT - what language did the other 99% of Danes speak 120 years ago?

mike65

I'm guessing Swedish.

Mike.

Lalaland

I love irish as a language for all my cack-handedness at actually speaking it but i don't think that this is an issue for the government beyond ensuring bi-linguism in all government departments and communications.

I still hold that for all the pain in the ass aspects of learning irish in school it shoul stay on the curriculum but perhaps move to being an option for the leaving cert cycle. The way the language is taught at the moment is a disgrace, the monotony of rote learning is unbelievable. Then again I hold we should all be learning a third language from kindergarten (studies show a new language is learnt easier at that age).

PS Who else thinks it a disgrace we didn't demand irish interpreters be present at EU meetings? It's in the f**ing constitution and they just ignored it for the sake of a few shekels...

Gearoid

Thanks for the big response, I hope it continues.
I hope I haven't been taken up wrong in what I have said.
Firstly I am totally against shoving the language down peoples throats, people should have a choice in their education as pointed out by Rohan.
When I say that the government has responsibilities in reviving it I mean that it should present it as a more important language by using it in The UN and EU. This may change peoples view towards it as a redundant "bog language".

Gearoid

In reply to Turnips comments (see above) yes English was used by the great Irish writers because Irish was a minority language in Ireland as it is now. They wouldn't have gotten through to people in Irish, sure they had to make a living they were writers!.
We are having this disscusion because of that fact that it was necessary and still is necessary to have English to live in this State.
I think your taking a very one sided outlook on events of the time for example Irish was used as much or more as English in Dáil Éireann debates during hte Anglo-Irish war.

seamus

There's a big problem with the way Irish is taught in this country, and the subsequent attitude which that generates. The forced teaching of Irish throughout your school years, coupled with the requirement by most colleges for some sort of pass grade, just makes everyone hate it.
Irish is seen by very few as a useful tool or an interesting subject, in the same way maths or Physics might be interpreted. Instead it is just seen as a pointless, useless, pain-in-the-arse subject that you can't get rid of.
This attitude persists after school, and young scumbags slag/beat up people who they hear speaking Irish, and the rest of the population are likely to give them strange looks.
Personally, I'm quite interested in relearning the language in the future, when I have time.
What can be done? Well I don't know Migration from the 'requirement' to have Irish for certain jobs/courses, but increased encouragement to use it would be a start. I strongly disagree with giving incentives in certain things (extra marks in the leaving for example) when Irish is used. This favours those who happen to be good at languages in general, or those who had the fortune to be raised in Irish-speaking environment, there are rarely people who can/will make that extra-special effort just to avail of the incentive.

D-Generate

The forced teaching of Irish isn't the real problem in why Irish is not spoken, it's teh poor teaching methods. They teach us how to write synopsis of Irish literature instead of teaching us how to go in to a restraunt and order food. How do the expect Irish to come in to everyday speech if all we ever learn is about poems such as Treall. This is the reason why students are better at speaking German and French even though they have only learnt it for a couple of years.

In short, give us everyday Irish instead of Irish literature.

Sand

Personally I feel we should restore Spanish as the national language. We need to get it taught in the schools, and get people interested in it. Surely if we can get Spanish to be seen as a language you can use around the town, in everyday life - if we can make it cool and relevant to todays youth well have a mass Spanish revival. Now I know youre thinking, huh, Spanish?!? but lets be honest, theres probably more fluent Spanish speakers in Ireland - especially in the Summer when they arrive in droves - than there are fluent Irish speakers. I make the point to demonstrate just what Irish is - a completely dead language, irrelevant to the vast majority of people.

As a taxpayer I dont want my money *wasted* on this dead, foreign language - I dont want school time wasted on a subject the vast majority of kids will get by in to pass exams and then promptly forget about - thats what I did, hasnt harmed me a jot - I dont want my money wasted on a television channel which broadcasts its programming in a language the vast majority of its intended audience cant understand.

And language is hardly the pillar of our national identity. If youre cheering Liverpool on, whilst reading the Sun, chatting about the re-run of Fawlty Towers on the BBC last night - does it truly make a difference if youre doing it in language A or B? Its what you say that counts, not how you say it. As Irish were as distinct from other English speaking countries as say the Australians are from the English. Two culturally different people, speaking the same language, one a former colony of the other. Whod have thunk it?

Personally the misty eyed romanticism that seems to clouds some peoples eyes, and their reason, when Irish is mentioned is irritating to me and seems to stem from some sort of feeling of obligation to shell out money on the national sacred cow - shure isnt it what our forefathers died for, the right to support a dead language? The Party or leader that steps up to the plate and has the guts and the common sense to call a halt to the blubbering over the dead language will get my eternal gratititude.


At the end of the day, if theres a demand for Irish to be spoken then let the speakers and fans of it set up a charity or foundation or whatever to get it spoken and let *them* pay for it and waste their time. Cant do any worse than the States social engineering experiements can it?

gurramok

I agree with D-Generate\Séamus here on how irish is taught.
It is taught atrociously in schools force-feeding youngsters the literature (remember Peig?) rather than how its spoken in everyday occurences, hence the hatred of it
Wasn't there a government report in the 30's/40's/50's reporting this fact but nothing was done ?

More people know the foreign langs than irish, most people i know have forgotten how to speak the language(including myself!) since leaving school but strangely they could still muster a few sentences of German, Spanish, French etc..

If it can be revived like it Danish was in Denmark and French in Quebec, Canada in the 60's.... why not copy their strategy of revival ?...How did they do it ? !

O'Casey, Shaw, Wilde, Synge, Yeats etc all wrote in English.

Not completely true. You're ignoring that Yeats wrote a fair bit of his work in Irish. Also, since Irish was suppressed as a language for the previous hundreds of years, its understandable that English would be spoken. I doubt too many publishing companies would have released too many books in Irish.

You're also ignoring that a large portion of the sings written from that era were in Irish, so there must have been an audience for them.

Well i was brought up speaking irish in the home, and i only learned English when i turned 6. Personally i love the language, and considering the way most people feel about the language, you can easily see why it is taught that way in schools.

I see the irish language as being part of our culture/history. Something that gives us a link to our roots, in this age of becoming more European.

As for compulsory education of irish, i don't think people should be obliged, to learn it, however i don't think it should be taken off the education system. Make it an optional language like German/Spanish is in most schools.

One other point. English is compulsary in schools, and it doesn't involve teaching us how to speak it. Should it also not be relegated to a secondary subject, like what is proposed for Irish?
I can't remember that last time, i needed to say a line out of Macbeth....

One other point. A dead language is one that is never spoken again. Irish while not widespread, does have a population of native speakers. So use of the dead language phrase shouldn't be applied here.

At the end of the day, if theres a demand for Irish to be spoken then let the speakers and fans of it set up a charity or foundation or whatever to get it spoken and let *them* pay for it and waste their time

Thats interesting. But we are paying for this. We pay taxes too. Is our right to what is spent with taxes, any less that your right? i don't think so.

Also a number of the "Irish Schools" in ireland are private owned, and paid for by the parents of the students.

P.s. My family still speaks irish at home. But thats understandable, considering my Dad is an Irish Teacher

bonkey

Originally posted by klaz
One other point. A dead language is one that is never spoken again. Irish while not widespread, does have a population of native speakers. So use of the dead language phrase shouldn't be applied here.

I believe it is more correct to say that a language is ckassified as dead when it no longer evolves through usage. Latin and ancient Greek would be examples - people can still speak them fluently, but the language never changes. This is an arguable danger facing many "resurrection" projects - that they will revive a language but freeze it in its form, thus keeping it technically dead.

Irish, on the other hand, is far from a dead language. It is constantly evolving.

While I believe the teaching mechanism for Irish should be changed, I'm not quite sure what would be an optimal solution - bearing in mind that our system has to cater for people for whom Irish is a first and english a second language, as well as the more common reverse situation.

jc

Sand

Thats interesting. But we are paying for this. We pay taxes too. Is our right to what is spent with taxes, any less that your right? i don't think so.

Actually , Id hold the point of view that the Government should be responsible in its budgeting and try to spend its money wisely. Funding a TV station, devising an *entire* curicculumn, hiring teachers to teach it, making it compulsory to ensure that anyone who isnt an Irish lover cant escape from the kulturekamp, making it a qualification for many civil service jobs so to ensure that whilst potentially good Gardai arent up to scratch unless theyre good Irish speakers, theres even a requirement that stations broadcast/air a certain proportion of their airtime in Irish, a language only 30000 people are fluent in, mostly concentrated in the Gaeltacht areas - which are rapidly dwindling despite creative accounting and grants to try and stave off the inevitable as English, the national language makes inroads. Oh and the administrative costs of ensuring every single state document and exam is printed in Irish too- despite English being thevernacular that *everyone*, even Peig, understands. And ALL this for 30000 fluent speakers.

Is this the right of 30000 people, to exert influence and spending *far* beyond their rights or actual need? I dont view speaking Irish as some sort of chronic long term disability or disease requiring extra care or compensation, nor is it a form of unemployment or some other social inequity requiring aid to put right. I dont see why the money dumped on these 30000 people isnt used for other projects of far more utility and value to the entire people of Ireland - health for one thing. Would Irish speakers prefer extra beds in their hospitals or the nurse telling them in Irish theres no room?

Also a number of the "Irish Schools" in ireland are private owned, and paid for by the parents of the students.

And I totally support these schools. Theyre great in my opinion. Its exactly what Im talking about when I say people interested in funding the Irish language should fund it themselves. It is far more likely to be successful than the current strategy which is overwhelmingly negative.

One other point. A dead language is one that is never spoken again. Irish while not widespread, does have a population of native speakers. So use of the dead language phrase shouldn't be applied here.

I stand corrected, a dying language on life support to delay the inevitable then.

Gearoid

Actually , Id hold the point of view that the Government should be responsible in its budgeting and try to spend its money wisely. Funding a TV station, devising an *entire* curicculumn, hiring teachers to teach it, making it compulsory to ensure that anyone who isnt an Irish lover cant escape from the kulturekamp, making it a qualification for many civil service jobs so to ensure that whilst potentially good Gardai arent up to scratch unless theyre good Irish speakers, theres even a requirement that stations broadcast/air a certain proportion of their airtime in Irish, a language only 30000 people are fluent in, mostly concentrated in the Gaeltacht areas - which are rapidly dwindling despite creative accounting and grants to try and stave off the inevitable as English, the national language makes inroads. Oh and the administrative costs of ensuring every single state document and exam is printed in Irish too- despite English being thevernacular that *everyone*, even Peig, understands. And ALL this for 30000 fluent speakers

In response to this- Where is the figure 30,000 coming from Sands? I understand that this is the population of the Gaeltachts that speak Irish everyday, but think of this- they are bilingual speakers who speak both languages on different days depending on where there are, there is a....."collective Gaeltacht" if you like , of speakers Nation wide who speak the language everyday also. This is easily more than 30,000.

Thanks for the response.:)

Sand

The 30000 figure came from a discussion of a survey I heard on the radio one evening at work. Im afraid I cant provide linkage:x Im open to counter claimd.

As for the collective gaeltacht I know there are some fluent Irish speakers outside of the gaeltacht but despite having met/econcountered hundreds of not thousands of people in my lifetime I know of only two who could be described as fluent. Id imagine then that the fluent outside of gaeltacht speakers are a fraction of the 30000 and that they are so dispersed as to be unable to spark a Irish revival as opposed to having to use english as their vernacular.

As I said if people want to speak Irish grand. Theyre wasting their time trying to talk to me in it, but whatever. So long as the government is not paying for their hobby, grand.

Cork

How long would it take somebody to learn it?

I think the way it is tought is a disgrace.

I learnt Irish in school for14 years and now cannot speak it.

Teachers, department of education etc love making excuses for this but really there is no improvent in schools today.

bonkey

Originally posted by Gearoid
despite English being thevernacular that *everyone*, even Peig, understands.

And its just tough noogies on those people for whom English is about as difficult as Irish is to a non-fluent speaker?

I know dozens of people living in the Gaeltacht who's grasp of English would be approximately comparable to that of many of the people I work with here in Switzerland.

Bear in mind, also, that while people like Peig may have understood English, they didnt necessarily have the ability to speak or write it. I know my German and French comprehension is far ahead of my ability to express myself in those languages.

Personally, I dont think its acceptable to say "but you understand some English, so lets ignore our Constitutionally First language cause its cheaper to do that, and say that you should fill out your forms etc in this not-native language you are far from fluent in.

If thats the path we are taking, then I think the first step is to modify our constitution. Admit Irish is not our First language, and English our second (with the ability by government to use one exclusively where it feels it should) and just say that English is our first language, and that Irish is a failed and doomed language that is basically part of our heritage, but has no place in the real world.

Originally posted by Sand
As for the collective gaeltacht I know there are some fluent Irish speakers outside of the gaeltacht but despite having met/econcountered hundreds of not thousands of people in my lifetime I know of only two who could be described as fluent

Whereas I would know dozens (at least) and would have once classed myself amongst them. Then again, I was heavily involved in things like irish youth clubs and so on some years ago, so I was in one of the best locations to see it.

I'm the first person to admit that our schools do not teach Irish "correctly", but even more of a problem is the attitudes of teachers. In my experience (having moved about quite a lot in my life), and from stories from aunts/uncles etc. It seems that there are large swathes in the country where even the teachers are of the opinion that Irish is a useless but mandatory subject.

My 10-year old cousin told me about someone in his class complaining about learning Irish, and the answer from the teacher was "I hate it too, and you'll never use it, but you have to learn it because its mandatory".
Now, I'm sorry, but with an attitude like that, does it even matter what the curriculum's flaws are?

I attended 4 primary schools - one in Cork, one in Dublin, one in Tralee, and one in Ennis (like I said, I moved about a bit). Two of them taught me excellent Irish. The two others disimproved the level of Irish I entered the school with. From talking to my parents, it is clear that the two schools that disimproved my Irish were from regions where Irish was considered useless, and it improved in those places who thought that Irish was a beautiful language which is a unique part of our hertitage, and for those reasons alone was worth learning.

Ultimately, I think its the teachers and not the syllabus, but I'm sure the teachers would take offense to that.

jc

The Reaper

FúCKIN SURE IT SHOULD BE RESTORED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sand

If thats the path we are taking, then I think the first step is to modify our constitution. Admit Irish is not our First language, and English our second (with the ability by government to use one exclusively where it feels it should) and just say that English is our first language, and that Irish is a failed and doomed language that is basically part of our heritage, but has no place in the real world.

We agree then? ( That was me btw, Gear is the irish loving fellah )

My 10-year old cousin told me about someone in his class complaining about learning Irish, and the answer from the teacher was "I hate it too, and you'll never use it, but you have to learn it because its mandatory".

The teacher is merely stating his/her opinion on it, stating what we all know but what were not brave enough to state openly - for fear of being criticised for dismissing the "national language". Is there a non "artificial" use for Irish?

Éomer of Rohan

No offence Sand but that is not even a constructive comment and is unduly dismissive. You seem to be unable to forment a well based argument and rely on attacks at certain points in arguments which ignore fundamentals dealt with by the whole. You did the same with my argument w.r.t. America, Bully or Policeman.

Gearoid

Bonkey, I definitely didn't write that piece ur quoting me on, I did however put a portion of sand's post in mine and replied to it, u may have taken this as my words as i failed to make it clear that it was a quote , my apoligies
.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
We agree then? ( That was me btw, Gear is the irish loving fellah )

No - we dont agree. I was referring to what whould be done - if this is the path we choose to follow. In other words, the "not pro-Irish" faction should bite the bullet and tackle the problem at the source, instead of faffing about with half-assed solutions.

I dont think I said that it was my stance. Let me just go check....nope, I didnt.

The teacher is merely stating his/her opinion on it, stating what we all know but what were not brave enough to state openly - for fear of being criticised for dismissing the "national language".

That is irrelevant. The teacher's job, strangely enough, is to teach - to impart information and learning to the best of their abilities. Whether they agree with the syllabus they are required to teach is about as relevant as whether or not I approve of the shade of magenta that a customer wants me to make the font on a web-site.

What no professional should be doing is deliberately undermining the very purpose of their job, simply because they have a personal disagreement with it.

This holds doubly true for teaching, when it is children who we are affecting. Who gave any teacher the right to deliberately form the opinions of children on subject's such as the relevance of Irish, based on nothing more than the teacher's personal opinion?

I must say, if and when I have kids, if I find any teacher offering any such "wisdom" to my children - that a subject isnt worth learning in the teacher's opinion I will be insisting that the teacher explain to me in writing why their opinion carries more weight than the board of education which hired them, and would consider taking action against them.

Is there a non "artificial" use for Irish?

I suggest you holiday in the Gaeltacht - say somewhere like one of the remoter villages in Conemara and see just how artificial the use of Irish is. But I guess wiping out these people's culture would be preferable to "wasting" some other taxpayer's money for some.

jc

Sand

other words, the "not pro-Irish" faction should bite the bullet and tackle the problem at the source, instead of faffing about with half-assed solutions.

I agree they should. Im tired of people being afraid to call time on the national sacred cow. A party ready to do so would get serious consideration from me even before taking into acount the rest of their policies.

That is irrelevant. The teacher's job, strangely enough, is to teach - to impart information and learning to the best of their abilities.

A teacher has a lot of jobs, my mother is one and shes got a whole lot of responsibilities either taken on or dumped on her - teaching being just one of them. And youre right , one of a teachers job is to impart information, to educate the children. Ive yet to see a syllabus that isnt about memorising simply to regurgitate in a test in *any* subject. So sticking inside the syllabus isnt always the best option. If a teacher feels the course is of little value then why cant he or she say so - syllabuses are constantly being reviewed and re-evaluated by teachers and the educational system as a whole - why is Irish somehow immune from criticism?

I must say, if and when I have kids, if I find any teacher offering any such "wisdom" to my children - that a subject isnt worth learning in the teacher's opinion I will be insisting that the teacher explain to me in writing why their opinion carries more weight than the board of education which hired them, and would consider taking action against them.

They might tell you to stop being so bloody orwelian and accept the teacher has a right to speak their mind, as do you. Who is your child going to belive regarding the importance of Irish - you their parent, or a teacher? If you feel threatened that a teachers exspressed opinion might hold more weight with your child than yours then perhaps you might want to review your relationship with your kids before you go on a crusade to stop people saying what they feel.

I suggest you holiday in the Gaeltacht - say somewhere like one of the remoter villages in Conemara and see just how artificial the use of Irish is. But I guess wiping out these people's culture would be preferable to "wasting" some other taxpayer's money for some.

Ah remote, yes. As in backwater, as in not the vernacular - as in practically dead. And Im not saying to wipe out the "culture" of ooh, 30000 people or so - Im saying stop giving their apparently vibrant, living breathing culture life support at rather considerable cost to the tax payer.

Éomer of Rohan

You are all so willing to criticise what you fail to understand. I studied Irish - conversational Irish - for three ears outside of school and then for two in school (and before we get stereotypical, I am not nationalist/republican and not catholic - I am an atheist). I personally would love to see a revival of the language in this country - I use it when I holiday in the gaeltacht - I have been twice with school and go to donegal every year for a short stay. It is a useful skill to know ANY language, especially for a historian like me. What is more, language is not just a method of conversation - it is a mode of thought and a way of life - something that many people in this country understand but I know you troglodytes will fail to. I do not intend to justify this rant but I will say this. One day there will come a time when intelligent culturally aware people run the country and they will not be anything like you morons.