100,000 march through Dublin against War in Iraq

Loomer

Brilliant!!!

Great atmosphere.

Also its quite possibly the highest turnout per capita of any of the marches round the World .

So Bertie, do we have your attention yet???

therecklessone

I was speechless when I heard how many attended, honestly.

Senior Gardai estimate 80000, but that's still brill.

Here's the maths for Bertie. 80000 is about 10 quotas in a decent sized constituency in the next election. Thats a lot of folk you know.

Congratulations to all involved, and keep up the good work. Damn this bad back! I shoulda been there...

daveirl

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dathi1

Yes I think what got up ordinary peoples noses was the idea that Blair, Bertie and co tried to put up the notion that Bush was the man to bring democracy to Iraq. Leftie Ken Livingston gave a great speech in London...and it was great to see all sides in politics on the march in Dublin today.

pencil

Yeah, there was a amazing turnout!!!

There where so many marching and the stream of people was so long that it was hard to know which stream was the direction to follow.

A few thousand of us, while following the a samba band, ended up marching up Trinity St & then up Wicklow Street & on to Grafton St. When we got to Grafton Street we found another section of the march coming down the street. Both marches joined & then at the end of Grafton Street rejoined the main body of the march.

100,000 & a turn out from all walks of life - Bertie & Cowan are going to have to listen to that.

Great day for Democracy (that's if our overlords listen!)

Shinji

On the other hand, if our leaders don't listen, it'll have been a dark day indeed for democracy. In Britain at least, Blair seems happy to carry on in the knowledge that the public can do little to affect a mid-term government, and the hope that we'll all have forgotten by the time the next election rolls around.

I'm not so sure. I think a lot of ordinary people have suddenly discovered that they're not happy with our elected leaders deciding that their job is to rule rather than to represent.

Estimates for the final crowd in London range from 750,000 to two million, with most independent estimates skewing high - the 750k figure is the official police one, and they only gave that estimate for people who walked the official routes. Many many more came to Hyde Park on side routes.

The people have spoken with the single loudest voice they've ever had. The opinion polls speak the same truths. If the government does not now listen, then it cannot be said to be representing the people; it moves forward without the mandate of its electorate.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Shinji
On the other hand, if our leaders don't listen, it'll have been a dark day indeed for democracy. In Britain at least, Blair seems happy to carry on in the knowledge that the public can do little to affect a mid-term government, and the hope that we'll all have forgotten by the time the next election rolls around.

Bertie/Blair et al would like to think that we'd all be happy with a bit of an aul peaceful protest and then we'll all go home, happy to have a job at all. Sure aren't we great altogether, with nearly full employment and such low taxation and all. Sure who' rock the boat?

Cop yourselves on lads. Peaceful protest can very quickly turn into Poll Tax style riots if the public feel they are being f**ked around by their representatives you know. Imagine the Guards trying to deal with even a fraction of the 100000 who turned up in Dublin today on the rampage.

Do I support violence as a means to a political end? Only when the elected leaders (and remember, unlike the US, we put 'em there) decide to completely ignore the people they serve and decide to do as they please. Peaceful protest is fine up to a point, but what happens if 1 million turn up for the next anti-war march (Dublin grinds to a halt for a start:D ) and Bertie still ignores us? Do we toddle off home with our tail between our legs?

HELL NO!

DadaKopf

Brilliant, brilliant turnout. We should all give ourselves a pat on the back.

Cactus Col

That's all well and good, but how many of that 80000 will bother to do anything else. A lot of people seem to be of the mentality that once they've marched then thats all they need to do to have shown their support. What they need to do now (or on Monday) is call the T.D.'s for their areas and tell them how they feel, or send them a letter, or an email.

Take a more active participation in protest.

regi

Its a pity we couldn't all march to get a decent health or public transport service, rather than to condemn a war this country won't/can't fight regardless. I vaguely wonder about our priorities...

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cactus Col
That's all well and good, but how many of that 80000 will bother to do anything else. A lot of people seem to be of the mentality that once they've marched then thats all they need to do to have shown their support. What they need to do now (or on Monday) is call the T.D.'s for their areas and tell them how they feel, or send them a letter, or an email.

Take a more active participation in protest.

This is a very good idea. Michael Moore (of Bowling For Columbine fame) suggests exactly that to Americans. Swamp our local reps with thoughtful and reasoned e-mails (and I mean that...resort to abuse and you immeadiately lose their attention) and it might just work.

I'll start work first thing tomorrow morning.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Regi
Its a pity we couldn't all march to get a decent health or public transport service, rather than to condemn a war this country won't/can't fight regardless. I vaguely wonder about our priorities...

Valid point. However, we are playing a part in the build-up to war (Shannon), and we are talking about hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives here. Sometimes I wonder do people in this country only care about the money in their pocket, and the problems of traffic congestion and inflation.

I'm being a bit hard on you there, sorry. Doesn't the election of a number of independant TDs in the last election who campaigned on health issues show that we do care? And if you are prepared to organise some form of protest, and I mean a well organised one, I promise I'll back you up. How does that sound?

regi

However, we are playing a part in the build-up to war (Shannon), and we are talking about hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives here

Shannon seems to be quite an emotive issue. I saw a poll earlier that stated that a majority of people would be opposed to use of the airport as a refueling point in the event of a UN resolution backing military action in Iraq. Do people no longer support UN resolutions?

Anyway, the whole thing for me suggests that people find it far easier to make a black/white decision about something very far away than try to clear up the the problems we have here at home. I can understand - its much easier to do.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Regi
Shannon seems to be quite an emotive issue. I saw a poll earlier that stated that a majority of people would be opposed to use of the airport as a refueling point in the event of a UN resolution backing military action in Iraq. Do people no longer support UN resolutions?

Anyway, the whole thing for me suggests that people find it far easier to make a black/white decision about something very far away than try to clear up the the problems we have here at home. I can understand - its much easier to do.

Well, when you know that the majority of the votes on the Security Council are bought by the US (they call it diplomacy, we know it as pre-election spending, Fianna Fail style!) then you tend to doubt even UN resolutions. But I tend to agree, we can't criticise the US for ignoring or sidetracking the UN, then ignore the UN when it suits us. What we should be pushing for in the long term is reform of the UN, so that the veto of the Five Powers is watered down.

As for your second point...possibly its because we know our government will do f**k all about the problems at home, certainly those that need more than five years planning. But then maybe the 50% of us who voted for the current administration should ask themselves is the extra few euro in your pocket from the tax reduections worth the crappy hospitals, the rampant inflation, the abysmal traffic and transport chaos in general, and the complete lack of balls when it somes to dealing with political corruption. Not forgetting the increase in crimes, the disaster that is our education system, and the post-euro fleecing we all got.

But sure haven't we all got a job now, and to be sure the tax isn't too bad now is it? Wait there sir 'til I doff me cap to ya. Jaysus Bertie you're a star...nearly as good as Charlie so ya are.

Biffa Bacon

I was very, very impressed by the whole march - not just the turnout but also the atmosphere. Everyone seemed to be there out of real conviction - it definitely wasn't just the usual suspects and professional protestors of the SWP and co.

People say war is inevitable but if that kind of pressure is kept up I do think there is a real chance that some political leaders will crack - starting with Bertie and Blair.

Which would be a shame.

dathi1

Biffa...you're dead right...I was taken aback by the number of families and ordinary people on the march...in the age of I'm all right Jack and everybody for himself you could multiply the impact of that figure ten fold.
( It might be just Bush's face )

mike65

I wonder did any of the 100,000 on the march have any coherent ideas about what to do about Saddam Hussain? Just a thought....

Mike.

therecklessone

I'm sure a lot of them have...

Try Dennis Halliday and Michael D. Higgins for a start.

Check the other posts about this and you might find what I think should be done, I'm a little tired of typing the same thing over and over...

JTMan

Originally posted by mike65
I wonder did any of the 100,000 on the march have any coherent ideas about what to do about Saddam Hussain?

I also wonder if any of those marchers had coherent idea's about how to stop the millions of deaths that can be attributed to Saddman's rule, the gross neglect of civil libraries and other blutalitisies associated with his regime.

War is likely to be the only method that will bring an end to this brutal regime.

I strongly disagree with those who marched on Dublin yesterday and hope that Bertie, Blair and Bush continue with their support for war in Iraq.

DeVore

Originally posted by therecklessone
Do I support violence as a means to a political end? Only when the elected leaders (and remember, unlike the US, we put 'em there) decide to completely ignore the people they serve and decide to do as they please. Peaceful protest is fine up to a point, but what happens if 1 million turn up for the next anti-war march (Dublin grinds to a halt for a start:D ) and Bertie still ignores us? Do we toddle off home with our tail between our legs?

HELL NO!

You remember and vote.... or is that not "reckless" enough for you.


What will you do? trash a McDonalds? have a sit in in the dail?

Jeeesus.

DeV.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Fungus
the gross neglect of civil libraries

Irish libraries aren't much better you know...only two books at a time in most of 'em:D

Sorry, I'm always doing that as well. As I've said before, show me the stats for the "millions" who've died under Saddam, please do.

As for civil liberties, there are far worse regimes around the world you know. AND he was no better when the US/UK/France were providing him with weaponry, intelligence, and more importantly scientific support (chemical weapons anybody) for the first 20 years of his reign.

Replace him with another general who does what he's told and it ain't gonna get any better.

therecklessone

Originally posted by DeVore
You remember and vote.... or is that not "reckless" enough for you.


What will you do? trash a McDonalds? have a sit in in the dail?

Jeeesus.

DeV.

Very mature of you.

What happens if I do remember, and I vote, and the next government still ignores the people? More importantly, given that the incumbent govt. have a comforatable majority, the chances of an early election are remote. What if they were to take that as excuse to ignore the people who put them there? Do we just sit tight and say "we'll get them f**kers in four years?

I'm not a Reclaim The Streets loonie, but I accept that sometimes peaceful protest is not enough. Its not as black and white as you would like to believe you know.

Some examples of civil disobediance in the not too distant past...

1. The Berlin Wall comes down
2. Tianeman Square (again, excuse my spelling please)
3. Milosevic removed from power in the former Yugoslavia.

In all of those regimes, the actions that took place would not have been seen as peaceful protest. Do you think Chinese students should have waited to voice their dissent through elections?

Let me be clear. If 1 million people were to march in this country at some time in the near future in opposition to war, and our elected representatives were to ignore that, it would have serious consequences for Irish democracy. A motion of no-confidence would be filed in the Dail, and defeated by a united government (assuming no rebels emerging from the backbenches of course). Given the serious nature of what is about to happen in the Middle East, I ask you this: is it good enough to wait four years for the next election?

I know I don't need to answer that, and I am unashamed about it.

Cork

eeh the Baghdad anti-war protest was cancelled due to .........em....beatings ,executions,mass-dissapearences etc.

Seriously - judging by openion polls - If a 2nd resolution is passed - The govt. should not allow the use of Shannon.

Thus - acting aganist the UN?

Should the Irish government stop giving grants to companys supplying the US milliatry effort?

I am anti war - But the UN inspectors will be given a deadline. After this deadline - It will be time for either soldiers to leave the Gulf or War.

It is up to Saddam.

Shinji

Er, I don't quite get this whole "acting against the UN" thing. Ireland's constitution demands neutrality - REGARDLESS of whether the united nations sanctions military action.

daveirl

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Meh

Originally posted by Shinji
Er, I don't quite get this whole "acting against the UN" thing. Ireland's constitution demands neutrality - REGARDLESS of whether the united nations sanctions military action.

Which article in the constitution says this? I can't seem to find anything in there about neutrality or non-alignment, apart from the new prohibition on joining an EU common defence.

therecklessone

Yeah, I'm with them. Its a while since I checked Bunreacht na hEireann, but as far as I recall, there is no constitutional directive on neutrality. If there was, what would we do if we were attacked????:D

Turnip

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Brilliant, brilliant turnout. We should all give ourselves a pat on the back.

Yes pat yourself on the back and be all smug and right on. How does that get Iraq liberated then?

Turnip

Originally posted by DeVore
You remember and vote.... or is that not "reckless" enough for you.

Heh. I guarantee that when the next election comes round people will do the right thing and vote as they did last time. Something to do with the SSIA scheme coming to fruition then....When push comes to shove, people look after themselves then whinge about global issues they have no influence over later.

DadaKopf

Originally posted by Turnip
Yes pat yourself on the back and be all smug and right on. How does that get Iraq liberated then?

Yer such an eejit.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Turnip
Heh. I guarantee that when the next election comes round people will do the right thing and vote as they did last time. Something to do with the SSIA scheme coming to fruition then....When push comes to shove, people look after themselves then whinge about global issues they have no influence over later.

Exactly. And not just global issues. We piss and whinge about our s**t health service, blaming the staff as usual, and the transport chaos, and the failing education system, and the rising inflation.

What really worries me is if things continue as they are, we will probably have FF/PDs in power for another ten years. By the end of that we will be so pi**ed off we'll elect anyone who isn't in the government parties simply out of pure bloody contempt, and a smug git akin to Blair will end up Taoiseach. You think the decision making process is arduous now, just wait until then. Imagine Bill Clinton and Tony Blair rolled into one, all things to all men, without the anorak(Bertie's almost got it right!;) )

We will become so cynical, that politicians will get away with blue bloody murder, and we'll let it happen because they'll have knocked a cent off the top rate of tax.

Argh! I need tea!