Stealth Taxes

Victor

Has the Sunday Business Post gone off the edge? Each time I see it these days, it is becoming more and more whingey and reactionary. Government needs money to provide services to all citizens, it makes this money from (1) taxes (2) user charges.

These items are included on the Sunday Business Post thepost.ie website. The first comes across as a rant and the second included here, is a facile demonstration or their warped logic. Thsi si the paper that said the abolition of the ceiling on employer's PRSI (12%) would shove up employment costs by 20%. Odd isn't how a 12% levy would do that.

Perhaps there should be no charges on any goods or services, the state should provide everything free (including luxury cars) and we should all pay a set percentage of tax on our income (nice for those evading tax). Sounds vaguely somewhere between the logic of a marxist and Ronald Reagan, just not the middle ground.

Are these types of articles making a mountain out of a molehill?

---

Their hands in your pockets

First there is VHI. If the state provided the health service it's supposed to, very few people would join VHI. With "community rating", everyone pays the same premium, regardless of income or age, so it can be seen as a flat fee.

There are the refuse charges of up to €300; the €150 television licence; the €670 college registration charge; the hospital casualty charge of €40; the stamp duty on cheques, ATM cards, credit cards, Laser cards; the increases in parking fees; the annual residents' parking charge; the bridge and road tolls; the airport travel tax; the passport administration charge; and a host of others.

Many services and goods in every sector are flat fees. If I buy a bar of chocolate it is for the same price as everyone else in the shop. Most of the above fees are user fees, if you don't have a TV you don't need a licence. If you don't have a car, you don't pay tolls. If you can't afford to travel abroad, you don't need to buy a passport. Of course the authors stupidity is shown by their being no airport travel tax in this country (there is often a user fee for using the airport) and well many "increases in parking fees" are in the private sector. It's like the bar of chocolate, if you want it you have to pay.

Stealth tax case histories
By Gretchen Friedmann and Paul T Colgan
Dublin, Ireland, 9 February, 2003

George and Kathleen are a couple who have been married for 20 years. They live in a four-bedroom house in Sandycove with their two children. Both have been solicitors for over ten years and earn €100,000 each, giving them a combined household income of €200,000.

After payment of tax, health insurance, pension and PRSI, George and Kathleen have a take-home income of €57,395 each. Their combined income of €114,790 shrinks by 3.7 per cent to €110,612 once stealth or indirect taxes are levied.

The couple's monthly mortgage on their €700,000 home is €4,717, but this rises to €5,094 with the 9 per cent stamp duty.

Kathleen recently bought an Alfa Romeo with a two-litre engine, adding an extra 30 per cent to the cost of her monthly car repayments.

The relative expense of this new monthly outlay on top of their top-rate mortgage prompted Kathleen to suggest to George that they give up one of their two credit cards, which are now adding an extra €80 in charges to their annual outgoings.

Money is not normally a problem for this couple, but Kathleen doesn't want to fork out an average of €23.60 on her laser and cheque accounts any longer and decided last week to cancel her cheque book.

Their daughter Alicia is listed on Kathleen's credit card account, which she used last October to pay the €670 registration fee for her marketing course in DCU.

Although Vat increases and the ESB and TV licence hikes have pushed up the couple's household bills, these haven't affected the couple's social life. Both dine out frequently and take several weekend breaks and two holidays a year.

Do people with a combined income of €200,000 need "sympathy"? Is "After payment of tax, health insurance, pension and PRSI" a true reflection of life, as not everyone can afford health insurance and a private pension. Not that they bother to break down their figures.

And as regard 9% stamp duty, well I think they have a nice €700,000 home that they won't pay tax on when they sell it (aside from how many people can afford a €700,000 home). Of course, the credit card issue (nice that the daughter has one) is complete s*** as the amount is miniscule (and keeps track of how many bank accounts are out their - Liam Lawlor was so disappointed by this).

VAT: Oh dear, that 13 oz steak is now going to cost another €0.20 ... the family will soon starve. :rolleyes: What VAT does do is prevent tax evaders getting away with everything (VAT and Income Tax / PAYE bring in about the same amount of money).

Jason and Mairead are a married couple with a combined annual income of €50,000. Jason works on a manufacturing line in a computer factory, while Mairead works in administration for a semi-state college. They have two children, aged 10 and 8.

Their annual take-home pay after tax, health insurance, pension and PRSI is €32,500.

Stealth taxes, which are applied as either flat-fees or at flat rates, represent over 15 per cent of Mairead and Jason's annual income.

They live in a council-rented two-up/two-down house in south Dublin.

They have a diesel car and two television sets. Jason likes an occasional drink and Mairead smokes 20 cigarettes a day.

They have to pay the bin tax, and have been hit particularly hard by the recent increases in local authority rents (18 per cent).

Mairead travels to work by car, while Jason must take the bus. Increases in motor tax (12 per cent), diesel (3.5 per cent) and public transport costs have made their daily journeys to and from work much more expensive.

Mairead has considered cutting back on cigarettes since the increases in last December's budget, but is finding it difficult.

The increase in the television licence fee has also been expensive for the family. They now pay €150 for their TV licence.

They also eat out less since increases in the Vat rate made restaurant bills more expensive.

The Vat increase has also hit their heating and electricity bills.

OK this family isn't as well off, but the authors fail to say where they are gettign their figures. Of course, being local authority tenants, their rent is about 25% of a market rent (approximately €217 per month). And yes Jason must now pay an extra €0.02 on his bag of chips on the way home from the bus stop.

therecklessone

I've no interest in getting in a them and us argument, but really, you are not gonna get any sympathy for a couple like George and Kathleen, in their 700,000 euro house, with the 2 litre Alfa, and the very active social life. Face it, the economy is slowly getting f***ed, and if they have to tighten their belts a little then so be it.

The other couple however, are left in a position where the cost of a packet of fags has to be taken into account when they do their sums at the end of the week. These are the people who the government should be doing their level best to help when things are getting bad.

I say this as a single male, who earned 50,000 euro last year and am still living at home while I save for a house. I know I am in a priviledged position, so this is not jealousy/sour grapes. Its called a conscience.

Cork

I think that everybody wants low taxes. But - sevices have to be paid for. People object to paying refuse charges?

We need to look at property tax, council taxes etc.

Refuse will be wieghed & people will be charged accordingly.
Water will probably be charged for.


But - we need fairness in the tax system. The tax system should do this while additional charges should be paid by the user.

therecklessone

Cork, you're right. Low taxes are great, but we still need the revenue to pay for services.

The problem is, on the one hane our government claims the credit for lowering income tax, but on the other hand raises indirect taxation to compensate. Net result, we're still out of pocket. Add to that the state of our public services and you have a lot of unhappy little bunnies...

Refuse charges should be kept, not to raise revenue, but to hammer home to individuals the environmental effect of full bins. Recycle ya ba****ds! (kidding)

Water charges should be introduced for the same reason.

But Charlie needs to be honest with us. Stop telling us that things are alright, but then fleecing us on car tax, credit card levies and the like. The govt. should do its bloody job, and address the housing crisis, inflation, and transport chaos. It doesn't always take a hell of a lot of money, just thinking outside the box...hint to govt....what worked five years ago won't necessarily work today.

I for one wouldn't mind income tax rising, IF it meant a better health and education system (non of which I currently use). Am I alone?

john.martin

Can i just say something on the 'bin tax'...

I live in a one bed apartment on my own currentley i am paying that same charges as my parents who live in four bed house.... how is this fair.

This tax needs to be serousley reviewed!

Sparks

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't mind the taxes - if the services were of an acceptable level.

BKtje

It's not unless you create a lot more waste than them.

Im not sure how they could measure everyones waste tho... not like the bin man has a fancy weighing scales and barcode reader on his truck that will charge people per kg/ bag or whatever.
How does refuse tax in other countries work?

dathi1

Get this:
I'm paying 140 euro a year for owning a TV. If we could get rid of this Tax and make tg4 the national station we could then split the difference per household on water and waste.......just an idea.
ps did yall here about the other quango Comreg wanting the government to impose a satellite dish tax to keep their overrated staff in guaranteed jobs?

Victor

Originally posted by john.martin
I live in a one bed apartment on my own currentley i am paying that same charges as my parents who live in four bed house.... how is this fair.

Because you are still one household. Apartments and small households produce more waste per capita.

Originally posted by john.martin
This tax needs to be serousley reviewed!

Not a tax, it's a user charge. Only those that use it pay. Also living in an apartment, is it the council or a private contractor?

I do agree collection is easier form apartments, but recycling and removing biodegradable material is less likely.

Originally posted by B-K-DzR
It's not unless you create a lot more waste than them.

Surely you mean "as much as ", not "a lot more"?

Originally posted by B-K-DzR
Im not sure how they could measure everyones waste tho... not like the bin man has a fancy weighing scales and barcode reader on his truck that will charge people per kg/ bag or whatever.

Actually is is a possibility, not that wheelie bins make it easier to measure.

Free = theft

Victor

Originally posted by dathi1
did yall here about the other quango Comreg wanting the government to impose a satellite dish tax to keep their overrated staff in guaranteed jobs?

They want Sky to contribute to the regulation of the telecommunications industry. Why should Sky have a free ride - all the income and none of the responsibility.

Chaos-Engine

The Sunday Business Post is what all PDs have going on in their head but don't write it down as a manifesto

Bus Post Agenda:
-The only taxs should be those levied on lower-income workers and should be low also..
-no corporate tax, higher income tax(regressive tax systems please)
-lots of levies and fees instead of services via taxs
-privitise everything including democracy(apparently it makes it more competitive )
-Police state(alla Manga Police state type system)
-no law or decision should be passed that has a negative effect on a private businesses profits
-no unions



Basically the Business Post is your Authorcratic Father you never got along with and never talked to since u left home

TomF

In Cork the bin taxes went from €180 last year to €390 this year, and of course the TV license (tax) went from €70 last year to €150 this year.

My response has been a tax avoidance strategy. For the bins, our family separates plastics from "edible" kitchen scraps, saves cardboard, newspaper and bottles for the local recycling bins and burns scrap paper in the fireplace as a fuel (yes, I know we aren't supposed to incinerate, but you can get ridiculous). We take our own refuse to the Cork dump every three weeks or so and have to pay a €10 fee to dispose of a carload there. This should reduce our tax for refuse disposal to about last year's level. The bin men look puzzled when they pass our house every week, but we don't mind.

The TV tax and the blizzard of increasingly threating letters from An Post are just ignored. We have enclosed our TV in a Faraday cage and if the license inspector from whatever debt collection company An Post hires comes to the door, we'll just tell him or her that we don't have a TV. It's a lie, but sometimes you just have to cope. We may not be watching RTE at all, maybe we get our TV signal from a satellite, and if that is so, what right does any national government have to regulate reception of the electromagnetic spectrum? Getting back to the An Post letters. The first letter is a friendly reminder written with a serene blue in the background. The second, a month later, is written with an yellow or amber background (like a traffic light?), the third, two weeks later, is written on a threateningly red background (traffic light analogy confirmed?) and the most recent, two months later, is on stark white (jail cell lighting?).

You just have to take matters into your own hands sometimes, and realise that people in all of these government agencies don't have all the answers. If they had their way, we'd send every penny we make directly to them and they would decide what the country needs, pay for that, divide up the remainder and send an equal amount to every person in the country (naturally paying their own good selves a premium in the way of chauffered cars, fine big houses, excellent food, frequent dining out and several lengthy holidays in sunny climes every year).

Chaos-Engine

TomF

Another way around your TV license(and perhaps a more practical one), is to use a TV/radio card from a computer and connect it to a computer monitor(which are significanly cheaper and sharper images than normal CRT teles)...

Ta Da...
No TV... Just a computer

SkepticOne

Originally posted by TomF
The TV tax and the blizzard of increasingly threating letters from An Post are just ignored. We have enclosed our TV in a Faraday cage and if the license inspector from whatever debt collection company An Post hires comes to the door, we'll just tell him or her that we don't have a TV. It's a lie, but sometimes you just have to cope. We may not be watching RTE at all, maybe we get our TV signal from a satellite, and if that is so, what right does any national government have to regulate reception of the electromagnetic spectrum?

The TV licence fee is a tax on receiving TV regardless of whether or not RTE reception is possible. It applies to people who can't pick up RTE for example because it is blocked by mountains. These people still have to pay the tax even if they only get reception from Britain.

Victor

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
-Police state(alla Manga Police state type system)

But police states cost money. Much better that the police service is privatised so only the rich can access the law at all.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by TomF
In Cork the bin taxes went from €180 last year to €390 this year, and of course the TV license (tax) went from €70 last year to €150 this year.

Are you sure there wasn't an intermittant figure of soemthing like €100?

TomF

If my memory serves right (and it often does not), our bin tax went from £90 (which, according to our nice little white, yellow and blue Charlie McGreevey free calculator is about €114.28) three years ago to €120 two years ago, to €180 last year and to €390 this year. In this household, we didn't see any easy progression from €180 to €390, it just jumped the whole amount!

TomF

Maybe I misunderstood the question. I don't know if there was an intermediate amount between the €70 and the €150 for the TV license, but yes, it does seem that the camel got his nose under the tent in-between those increases.

And reference using the PC to receive TV signals, I think there is some lawyer-language that says no matter how you are able to receive a TV signal, you owe the government the €150.

But I wonder what would happen if you owned one of those TV-on-your-spectacles receivers and answered the door to the inspector's knock while watching TV on your glasses? You might be able to invite him in to check for TVs under the bed while you caught the latest sleaze on "Fair City" and still beat the tax.

Cork

I think a TV licence is out dated. TV and Radio stations should be funded by advertising. TG4 should get support from the government.

The TV licence is a Stealth Tax. The government should not have sanctioned such a massive increase.

The licence goes to "public service broadcasting" - Many programmes like "Friends" & "ER" have sponsors on RTE.

Why does RTE feel the need to put US imports on primetime TV?

Look at the times the broadcast Dail Eireann.

Wook

Originally posted by B-K-DzR
It's not unless you create a lot more waste than them.

Im not sure how they could measure everyones waste tho... not like the bin man has a fancy weighing scales and barcode reader on his truck that will charge people per kg/ bag or whatever.
How does refuse tax in other countries work?

In Belgium you need to pay by 'Bag' rather then bin.
Also have three bins, 1 for normal trash 1 for everything organic and 1 for everything metal (cans, etc)

bonkey

Originally posted by TomF
You just have to take matters into your own hands sometimes, and realise that people in all of these government agencies don't have all the answers.

This is just a polite way of saying "you just have to break the law sometimes, when you disagree with it", isnt it.

I'm wondering if you'd agree with such a moral stance if you were to lose out in some way because others used the same logic. For example, if your bin tax was higher because others felt it was already too high and that it was therefore OK for them to dodge paying it....would you be so sanguine about it all : "Oh, I don't mind paying the extra X Euro per month...after all, these guys who dodged paying and who caused this raise were only taking matters into their own hands because they felt they had to, and thats fair enough".

Regardless of whether or not you agree with a law, the law is there. I'm the first person to say that people should complain when the service being received isnt acceptable or is over-priced, but I still maintain that while you choose to retain a service, then you are morally obliged to pay the asking price for it.

IF something in a shop is too expensive, does that make stealing it ok? IF not, then why is stealing a service (i.e. refusing to pay) any different?

jc

TomF

Good points! I don't know how to answer many of them except to say that a law that is not effectively enforced is in some way not a law. For example, is it unlawful to go 60 miles per hour on Cork's Lower Glanmire Road in the 40 mph zone? It is, but it is almost never enforced, and so in a very real way, it isn't law.

I think the TV tax isn't law because it is not effectively enforced in Ireland.

Other countries manage to support good TV and radio programming by voluntary donations or by government grants (the latter, of course, is ultimately supplied by some tax).

Maybe RTE should support itself by making quarterly appeals for funds campaigns on the air. The stars of the various programs like Fair City could get on in a telethon format and drum-up money to keep the station going. If the people of the country don't support RTE it goes out of existence, or is reduced to a less luxurious lifestyle in Montrose.

bonkey

Originally posted by TomF
Good points! I don't know how to answer many of them except to say that a law that is not effectively enforced is in some way not a law. For example, is it unlawful to go 60 miles per hour on Cork's Lower Glanmire Road in the 40 mph zone? It is, but it is almost never enforced, and so in a very real way, it isn't law.

OK - but if you get stopped for doing 60 on the Lr. Glanmire Rd. and say "but you never normally stop doing 60 here", I don't think you'll find them letting you off. I would also have no sympathy for anyone who breaks a law because "sure they never check it", and then gets caught.

Ask yourself whens the last time you complained about other people doing illegal stuff (littering, driving recklessly, stealing, ripping off the dole, whatever). Now apply your "if htey don't enforce it enough, its fine to break it" attitude to the laws they are breaking. Surely they're only doing what you feel is perfectly acceptable - breaking a law because they disagree with it or dont care about it, and because it is enforced so poorly that they are pretty sure they can get away with it.

Ultimately, I cannot agree with the position that we should only be expected to keep the laws which we might be caught breaking.....which seems to be the base conclusion arising from your argument.

I think the TV tax isn't law because it is not effectively enforced in Ireland.

Well, you've been given your warnings. If and when you get hit with a court-case and/or fine, you will have no grounds for complaint or appeal.

Other countries manage to support good TV and radio programming by voluntary donations or by government grants (the latter, of course, is ultimately supplied by some tax).

Don't get me wrong...I think our government makes an absolute mess out of a lot of the areas it funds. Whether or not Television and the Arts is one of them is open to debate, but thats not the issue.

If the service is crap, and you dont want to pay for it, then dont use it. That means if you dont want to have a TV license, then do not own a radio or television, or have one in your domicile. If you want to have one of these, and dont want to pay a license, then regardless of any excuses, you are breaking the law. You may never get caught....and you may feel justified....but make no mistake, you are breaking the law, and you are ultimately supporting a position that an individual can break a law when they see nothing wrong in doing so and/or decide that the risk of getting caught is acceptable. I'm not so sure thats a great place to stand, personally.

jc

TomF

Like Rodney Dangerfield, "Bad laws don't get no respect."

My daughter had an apartment near Smithfield in Dublin last year and there was some kind of big concert to be held out under the torches. She told me that either Dublin Corporation or the sponsors of the concert actually went to the people living in apartments surrounding the open space to tell them they could not look at or listen to the concert unless they paid up. Now this seemed to me to be an "urban legend" so I won't base too much on it.

Remember the 1920s? Or have you read the history of the 1920s and the Volstead Act in the U.S.? That Act introduced what was known as prohibition, and may have been the makings of the fortune of the Kennedy family (once famous, now infamous, in American society).

That was a bad law because, although government attempted to enforce it, there was widespread disobedience of the law. I think plenty of violators were caught and fined, maybe imprisoned, but eventually the law was nullified after the repeal of the Eighteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that decreed prohibition.

It may be that people aren't loading powerful cars with TV sets and dashing across a border while trading bursts of .45 slugs from Thompson guns with the TV police, but I think that a very large number of Irish people are thumbing their noses at the law, and the law can't be enforced and it is eventually going to crumble.

Furthermore, I suspect that the TV tax law, where it is enforced, is selectively enforced in areas where the pickings are richest: that is, in the cities. The contract collection agencies probably don't envision much profit in driving miles from farm to farm to knock on doors and demand the tax (including their cut), but where there is a dense population, the profit potential must be juicy.

bonkey

Tom,

I'm just making the point that regardless of which way you argue it, you're still breaking the law because you - and others presumably - disagree with it. You are condoning the attitude that once you believe a law is bad, you shouldn't be obliged to follow it...which more or less excuses all behaviour.

You're free to take this stance. I just think that the solution to the problem is not to exacerbate it, but rather to seek change, or support those who seek change, or even to encourage change whilst abiding the law.

We differ in opinion, and I think we've both made our positions clear, so shall we leave it?

On a relate question, theugh....if you end up fined for lack of compliance with the law, will you say "fair cop" and pay up, will you fight your case on the grounds you present above?

jc

Victor

Originally posted by TomF
My daughter had an apartment near Smithfield in Dublin last year and there was some kind of big concert to be held out under the torches. She told me that either Dublin Corporation or the sponsors of the concert actually went to the people living in apartments surrounding the open space to tell them they could not look at or listen to the concert unless they paid up. Now this seemed to me to be an "urban legend" so I won't base too much on it.

Sounds funny, the lads aren't usually that diligent. On second thought, maybe they said not to bring people to view it (and have hundreds of people in the apartments) or to record it?

Originally posted by TomF
Furthermore, I suspect that the TV tax law, where it is enforced, is selectively enforced in areas where the pickings are richest: that is, in the cities. The contract collection agencies probably don't envision much profit in driving miles from farm to farm to knock on doors and demand the tax (including their cut), but where there is a dense population, the profit potential must be juicy.

In the country all you ahve to do is llok for the aeriels. Of course, it should really be added to Cable / MMDS / staellite accounts (issues I know).

Cork

Comreg allowing a 20% rise in the cost of the humble stamp is crazy. What we need is increased efficency. Giving into demands from the post office is crazy. What we are getting is Stealth Taxes to hide ineffency.

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
Comreg allowing a 20% rise in the cost of the humble stamp is crazy. What we need is increased efficency. Giving into demands from the post office is crazy. What we are getting is Stealth Taxes to hide ineffency.

Increasing the cost of a stamp isn't a stealth tax. Comreg are useless but it's still not a stealth tax. Go use Google and find out what a stealth tax is defined as and come back then.

sovtek

Originally posted by B-K-DzR
How does refuse tax in other countries work? [/B]

AFAIK it is funded by property taxes.

sovtek

Originally posted by dathi1
Get this:
I'm paying 140 euro a year for owning a TV.

Sorry, I'm not very familiar with the concept of a licence fee for TV as we don't have one in America(why we have to endure 10 minute commercial breaks). I thought the idea was that you paid a TV licence to forgo a need for commercials, like the BBC.
I also thought that the rise in the licence fee to €150 (after mismanagement of funds by RTE) was contingent upon more local programming.

sovtek

I haven't really seen anybody mention how the government wastes the tax revenues they do receive.
Like the whole Bertie Bowl thing. Three hundred million on something that was never even started. That and the fact that you have a world class stadium that only the corrupt GAA can use.
I'm sorry but I have never heard of any country introducing a tax for the possesion of a credit card. As well the bin tax is a serious joke as there is no viable recycling facilities AFAIK.
I'd like to suggest that the government seriously needs to look at reduction in waste before another tax is even considered.
Put that with the profiteering, price-fixing and extortionate inflation going on, the Irish economy is looking at a serious nose-dive to come.

Cork

Originally posted by sovtek
I'm sorry but I have never heard of any country introducing a tax for the possesion of a credit card.

All major political partys have suuported this tax.

you have a world class stadium that only the corrupt GAA can use.

Fair play to the GAA for putting that stadium up with very little tax payers money. What has the FAI or the IRFU done? The GAA has many members - that put in much effort.

Yes - the government has wasted money. The UK government built the Dome. Governments shout make sure every cent of expenditure is warranted.

But people should pay for the disposal of their refuse. There are many "bring" centres. I know we need Kerb Side Collection.