War looms as Saddam flatly refuses to destroy missiles

Cork

Originally posted by sceptre
Well if US soldiers find themselves within 150km of Baghdad in the absence of a UN resolution to support them being there he's legally entitled to use any legal missiles (read "capable of travelling less than 150km") to blow them to hell.

Well, Saddam said on CBS statedthat he would not distroy these weapons. Today, he has changed his story.

He has no itention to disarm. This is pretty obvious from the last 12 years. Saddam is only playing games with the UN.

I hope that that the UN will tolerate Saddams little games and take necessary actions to rid Iraq of Saddam.

Cork

Originally posted by TomF
So far it looks as though the United States of America is getting more done by jawboning and shuffling troops, ships and aircraft around in the matter of disarming Iraq than the United Nations has done in the past 12 years. Could it be that Europe is really an ineffective presence in world politics and that a policeman is really needed? Hmm.

Fair play for Tony Blair for showing leadership. When other socialist leaders of Europe used the middle east crisis as an election ploy.

If is a pity that Irish socialists can't show such leadership. Hopefully Tony will take on SF/IRA next week in our own peace process.

France's interests in Iraq seem to be very important to French policy makers. For far too long, the French and Germans have seem themselves as the kingpins of Europe.

I think after Saddam has departed as dictator - France and Germany will be seemn as yesterday's men.

He has no itention to disarm. This is pretty obvious from the last 12 years. Saddam is only playing games with the UN.

Can't see as i really blame him, since he's got America lookin to rip him from power. And i can't say that America's continous bombing of Iraq's infrastructure generates any trust between Iraq and the world. Could it be that Saddam, knew that America would come back, and decided to be ready?

Well, Saddam said on CBS statedthat he would not distroy these weapons. Today, he has changed his story.

Cork, this occurs on both sides. Bush & Blair have made statements regarding Iraq in the past that have either proven unfounded, or were contradited later.

I hope that that the UN will tolerate Saddams little games and take necessary actions to rid Iraq of Saddam.

Which can only happen if the UN returns to being an actual power. America's flaunting of its own power, doesn't generate much confidence in UN policy. The UN will deal with Saddam, but who will deal with America?

France's interests in Iraq seem to be very important to French policy makers. For far too long, the French and Germans have seem themselves as the kingpins of Europe.

Just as the UK have seen themselves in the same light. And as America sees itself now. I think i prefer France/Germany being Kingpins of Europe, than America trying to be. Besides, France/Germany have a better peace record, than America over the last 80 years.... surely you would support them for that, Cork?

I think after Saddam has departed as dictator - France and Germany will be seemn as yesterday's men.

Only if the US completely takes over Europe. Which doesn't seem likely. You are talking abt Europe. If you take out France/Germany, theres not that many larger nations left. Besides, Europe is seen as yesterdays nations since WW2, when most of european power was destroyed.

Cork

France/Germany have a better peace record, than America over the last 80 years.... surely you would support them for that, Cork?

Are we not forget Hitler?
Appeasement was also a tactic used back then.

Can't see as i really blame him, since he's got America lookin to rip him from power

As his people suffer:

While not included in the ranking, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's fortune totals at least $2 billion, the magazine said. - Forbes

I think that Saddam got his palaces and his money. His people are suffering.

How can he have such a fortune?

After 12 year of sanctions?

I think the Germans and French need to stop apologising for Saddam.

And SF need to push the IRA to to get rid of their illegal arms.

Are we not forget Hitler?

I doubt very much either Germany or France will ever forgot Hitler. Considering France was the site for some of the most viscious battles at the end of WW2.

Appeasement was also a tactic used back then

Explain in what context you mean, please. Its too open-ended.

think that Saddam got his palaces and his money. His people are suffering

His people are suffering, ok. Well i hardly think that UN sanctions, and US bombing runs, are going to make their lives any easier. As for Saddam, having palaces/money, everyone knows that he's ruling Iraq for money.

think the Germans and French need to stop apologising for Saddam.

Why? Its their choice to block this war if they so choose. Should the UK stop supporting the US, cause i think they're wrong?

And SF need to push the IRA to to get rid of their illegal arms

I have no idea where this came from. But in answer, regardless, its not going to happen in a month of sundays. Just like Saddam, they'll produce a few arms every once a while. But the other side is, why aren't you asking for the loyalists to surrender their arms also? or for Basque Separtists to surrender their arms? or the Palestinians to surrender all explosives?

These groups will keep their arms regardless of what happens. Just as Saddam will keep his weapons, and as will the US keep their arms the next time they sign a weapons reduction agreement.

Cork

Just like Saddam, they'll produce a few arms every once a while. But the other side is, why aren't you asking for the loyalists to surrender their arms also? or for Basque Separtists to surrender their arms? or the Palestinians to surrender all explosives?

Saddam is a dictator with a fortune of $2 billion according to Forbes. Palestinians need to get away from suicide bombers. SF needs also to get the IRA to disarm.

In both Iraq and Northern Ireland, negotiations are entering a critical phase. And for all the differences between the two situations, there is a common thread. In Baghdad and Belfast, disarmament is the key to peace.

What is needed, in both Iraq and Ireland, is a completely verifiable arrangement for the removal of weapons. The threat to international peace on the one hand, and to the peace in these islands on the other, must be lifted once and for all.

In Baghdad and Belfast it is make up your mind time. Both Saddam and the IRA have the ability to deliver lasting stability if they have the will.

the above 3 quotes are from Belfast Telegraph.

I hope that Bertie & Tony will force SF to choose betwwen politics and armed movements.

No More fudging or tiime wasting.

Time is running out for SF & Saddam

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Are we not forget Hitler?

No. We're not. As a result of the actions of that man, the French, Germans, and many other mainland European nations understand the true horror of war in a way that even the Englsh or Americans cannot understand.

England had the Battle of Britain, American had Pearl Harbour. France had pretty much its entire nation turned into a battlefield. As did Germany, as did many other mainland European nations.

Yes, American soldiers died, as did English, Australian, Spanish, Italian, French, German, Belgian, etc. etc. etc.

However, there is a distinct difference between the lessons learned from partaking in a war and having that war fought on your homeland. Neither the UK nor the US are in a position to have learned that lesson in living memory, but those who are in such a position are being knocked as cowards or whatever other insult people want to throw at them back then.

So no - we are not forgetting Hitler. I would say the opposite - that the pro-war faction are forgetting the real lessons of the last 2 World Wars which are to be learned in their impact on the civilians caught in the battlefield-nations.

And yes, you can say "but we have to remove Saddam before he causes such a battlefield", but the inherent flaw in that argument is if you create such a battlefield in removing him.

Unless, of course, Iraqi lives are less important for some reason.

How can he have such a fortune?
I'll give you a clue - rearrange the following letters to form a real english word : i, l, o.

I think the Germans and French need to stop apologising for Saddam.

Show me a single place where they have apologised for him. Just one. Please.

Otherwise, I would strongly suggest that this is nothing more than an incorrect and misleading statement. You know - like the ones you say we shouldnt put up with from Saddam.

And SF need to pushv the IRA to to get rid of their illegal arms.

And you need to understand that when moderators warn you about putting this deliberate off-topic rubbish in threads that they actually mean their warnings.

Or would you like us to take you stance, and to stop dilly-dallying and decide that you are not going to change, that we have had enough, and that despite persistant "diplomatic" efforts to get you to understand what is acceptable you will not learn.

If I - or either of the other two mods - took your "enough is enough" stance, Cork, you'd be long gone from this forum for persistantly ignoring the rules you are required to follow, have been requested to follow, and have shown no inclination of following.

jc

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
Well, Saddam said on CBS statedthat he would not distroy these weapons. Today, he has changed his story.

He has no itention to disarm. This is pretty obvious from the last 12 years. Saddam is only playing games with the UN.

I hope that that the UN will tolerate Saddams little games and take necessary actions to rid Iraq of Saddam.

I have no idea why you quoted me above your post there as you didn't address anything I had to say, nor did you agree or disagree with anything in the post you quoted from. If you're going to quote me, at least have a reason for doing it. All you've done is repeat the same vague line you've been spouting for the past fortnight btw (with a few irrelevent soapbox soundbites popped on to the end of the odd post).


Here's something you can quote and reply to though (note: you only get to quote it if you actually reply to it):

• Iraq has weapons that may exceed limits imposed on them by the UN
• These weapons are openly declared in their weapons declaration supplied to the UN
• US takes two months to get to that part of the report, finds out about the weapons, ignores the fact that they've been declared and proclaims this as proof that Saddam Hussein is trying to fool the UN
• UN calls on weapons to be destroyed
• Saddam tells them to bugger off
• UN says (again) that they want them destroyed
• US says that if they're not destroyed, they will invade
• Saddam Hussein thinks about it and orders weapons to be destroyed
• US declares that this destroying of the weapons is further proof of the appalling duplicity of Saddam Hussein and says they're definitely gonna kick some Iraqi ass now

This make any sense at all? The hawks in the US administration swore blind that the missiles were a major problem for them and that they would have to be destroyed. As soon as the announcement that they were to be destroyed was made, the same chaps said that this was total proof that Saddam Hussein was up to something.

Kindly avoid statements like "well, they must have some more secret arms" unless you have insider knowledge or a cousin in the Iraqi secret service (because statements like that just make people who make them look silly as they're obviously swallowing some kind of propaganda or can't tell the difference between "imagination" and "reality" (or indeed, actual evidence versus conjecture))

daveirl

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Cork

Show me a single place where they have apologised for him. Just one. Please.

Saddam is openly defying UN resolutions - Yet the US is getting much criticism from the French & Germans.

United Nations -- Hans Blix, the chief U.N. weapons inspector, gave a broadly negative report Monday on Iraq's cooperation with two months of inspections, saying that Baghdad had failed to provide persuasive evidence that it had rid itself of weapons of mass destruction.

Link

When the US and UK has criticised this non co-operation.

France believes that the fault lies with not having enough inspectors.

They are very open to their openion. But I would prefer the omis being on Saddam.


This topic is called "War looms as Saddam flatly refuses to destroy missiles".

They are many illegal weapons in this country and I put up a few quotes from the Belfast Teegraph comparing Saddam to the situation that exixts here.

I surpose - it may be a little off topic. But, hopefully George W will now push for IRA disarment as we approach ST. Patricks Day.

Victor

Originally posted by TomF
So far it looks as though the United States of America is getting more done by jawboning and shuffling troops, ships and aircraft around in the matter of disarming Iraq than the United Nations has done in the past 12 years.

Actually no, 80%+ of disarmament was through inspections.

daveirl

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Cork

extreme left in Ireland had always been virulently anti-American and anti-EU

Source


Policing these protests by these groups costs large amounts of money.


Yet these very same protesters can moan about the state of our health service or the government replacing a clapped out old jet.

Yet, policing their marchs or adding extra security to Shannon is not a waste of public money.

[[Source[/URL

Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has plans to surround Baghdad with a "belt" of chemical weapons so he can turn the city's 4million people into a "human shield", a former senior Iraqi scientist has revealed.

Is Saddam allowed to keep chemical weapons?

Not according to the UN.

DadaKopf

Originally posted by Cork Policing these protests by these groups costs large amounts of money.

Yet these very same protesters can moan about the state of our health service or the government replacing a clapped out old jet.

Yet, policing their marchs or adding extra security to Shannon is not a waste of public money.

That's a bit of a silly thing to say, really. I suspect the Gardai who police these protests are on salaries. Apart from the cost in time, I can't see how street protests cost anything more than this except for the deployment of the Garda helicopter, which is generally unneccesary anyway.

As for Shannon: the cost is paltry compared with the cost of war.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
Policing these protests by these groups costs large amounts of money.

Proposed government jet .... €50,000,000

Overtime for 100 Gardaí 8 hours .... €15,000 (including doughnuts)
Overtime for 100 soldiers 8 hours .... free

Look on Corks face ... Priceless

PHB

You mean in retaliation for throwing stones? Israel has used a 1kTonne bomb to kill 1 person in a civilian area and has invaded 4 of its neighbours and you say has used restraint?

The idea of proportionality is somewhat an absurd one, if a Palestinian terrorist bombs a school bus are Israel allowed bomb a Palestinian school bus, is that how it works?

Throwing stones, I love that, not big huge ****ing rocks that can easily kill you if they hit you in the head, oh no its just ikkle baby girls throwing rocks.

Invaded 4 of its neighbours, damm ****ing right it has, cause they declared war on Israel, and Israel fought back, kicked their asses, and invaded them in retalisation!

Further to that the point that using a WMD against an entire population when someone does a suicide bombing is a little extreme, no?

Exactly my point, Israel have shown massive restraint after all the **** that the Palestinian terrorists, not representing their people at all, have thrown at them.

Israel has used 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' in the past.

- Former Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky claims that lethal tests have been performed on Arab prisoners at the IIBR [Israeli Institute for Biological Research]

There are allegations that Israel has used CBW [Chemical Biological Weapons] on numerous occasions

The keywords you have are "has" and "allegations." I would be very interested in some proof of this.

And just in a general reference to Israel defying UN resolutions, what ones are you talking about.
The ones where they define zionism as racism, or those sort of resolutions? Damm right they defo UN resolutions.

And at least they won't sign the UN resolution on profliferation of Nuclleor weapons because they know that they won't stick to it, compared to other countries who will sign it and not ratify it, I dont know what you want from them?
They have a right to have nucleor weapons, not that I like them, to protect themselves from the democracy hating anti semetic bastards that surround them and to suggest otherwise and not say that every other nation shouldn't have them is very hypocritical.

daveirl

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PHB

Absolutly, if a state does not agre with a resolution it should not sign it nor should it comply with it.
If a resolution is not obeyed, then it is up to the security counncil to determine appropriate measures to take againist them, which is what hopefully will happen, and hopefully the security council will support a UN war on Iraq.

* Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

Yes I agree that Israel isnt complying, but nor are the other states unfortunatly, and since the UN do not back up their resolutions with force Israel had to take apropriate actions unfortunately.
Israel gave a solution for peace, which was not even considered by Palestinian authorities since once they set up a state they had to run education and healthcare, and they wouldnt be into that sorta thing.

Anyway, we're getting way off topic here

Cork

Originally posted by DadaKopf
That's a bit of a silly thing to say, really. I suspect the Gardai who police these protests are on salaries. Apart from the cost in time, I can't see how street protests cost anything more than this except for the deployment of the Garda helicopter, which is generally unneccesary anyway.

As for Shannon: the cost is paltry compared with the cost of war.

According to TV3 tonight - the security operation in Shannon cost up to €1 million.

Look on Corks face ... Priceless

Well - Protests in both Shannon and Dublin were pretty small - but the organisers of such events should foot the security bill.

This small protest cost the taxpayer up to €1 million (TV 3) - This is a disgrace.

It is amazing that a few hundred protesters can cost our state this type of money.

Money that otherwise could be spent on health & education.

These types can then be ringing up RTE complaining about our Health system.

Fair play to Mary Harnry for telling like it is.

Éomer of Rohan

Cork do you actually suffer from terminal stupidity or do you forget that this is a democracy? It is an internationally recognised Human Right to freedom of protest - everyone has that right; including those who do not exercise it. Thus the people as a whole pay for the protests when they happen because at some point it may be they who are protesting.

dathi1

Invaded 4 of its neighbours, damm ****ing right it has, cause they declared war on Israel, and Israel fought back, kicked their asses, and invaded them in retalisation!

Were did you learn your history on the middle east...Sky News or Bloomberg TV?

Cork

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Cork do you actually suffer from terminal stupidity or do you forget that this is a democracy? It is an internationally recognised Human Right to freedom of protest - everyone has that right; including those who do not exercise it. Thus the people as a whole pay for the protests when they happen because at some point it may be they who are protesting.

I am fully aware unlike Iraq - we have a democracy. I support the right to protest. But there is no right to damage the property of others or even to threaten to do so.

Shannon Airport is private property and these people should not be left next or near the airport.

Spending up to €1 million (TV3) protecting the airport aganist these people was a complete waste of taxpayers money.

Spending up to €1 million (TV3) protecting the airport aganist these people was a complete waste of taxpayers money.

Just curious, but how much of this was already allocated to shannon security before the protests?

Shannon Airport is private property and these people should not be left next or near the airport.

I don't agree with the damaging of property, as my previous statements regarding shannon, but Cork, these people, or any people are not allowed near shannon? Come on. Thats like saying that since my home is private property, nobody should be allowd within 50 metres of it.

If you're so pro-human-rights, then why are you asking to restrict peoples access?

quote:

---

Invaded 4 of its neighbours, damm ****ing right it has, cause they declared war on Israel, and Israel fought back, kicked their asses, and invaded them in retalisation!

---

Were did you learn your history on the middle east...Sky News or Bloomberg TV?

Daithi, he's partially correct. remember, that while israel did perform pre-emptive strikes, they have been attacked without warning also. Its also hard when you're surrounded by 4 neighbours, who want u out of the middle east.

Well - Protests in both Shannon and Dublin were pretty small - but the organisers of such events should foot the security bill.

Why? The damage performed were by a small activist group. The majority of protestors were peaceful, in their actions.

Money that otherwise could be spent on health & education

Considering what the government is currently spending money on, theres alot worse things to complain about. Whats the point of this new jet anyway?

Well I'd agree if they were terrorists but if a foreign power invaded here tomorrow and fought back would I be a terrorist? Israel are in occupied territories.

Other side of the coin: When America takes over, the Iraqi soldiers that fight against American troops are in the right then, even if they use WMD's? (not that its been proven they have em)

Some democracy they have themselves. One where Palistinians are denied self-determination and where extra-judicial killing is the norm.

Can you really see a Palestinian nation, performing any better? Especially since Palestine did attack Israel originally.

quote:

---

Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has plans to surround Baghdad with a "belt" of chemical weapons so he can turn the city's 4million people into a "human shield", a former senior Iraqi scientist has revealed.

---

Is Saddam allowed to keep chemical weapons?

Where does the above quote come from? I mean this guy might not be legit. Just another rumor that was floating around and picked up by the media?

And no Saddam is not allowed Chemical weapons. Nor has it been proven that he has em.

Saddam is openly defying UN resolutions - Yet the US is getting much criticism from the French & Germans

Maybe the US are getting so much critism, because everyone knows that the US will not respect the UN's resolutions any more than Iraq.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
Spending up to €1 million (TV3)

Thats the third time you have said that in the last 11 lines.

Originally posted by Cork
Spending up to €1 million (TV3) protecting the airport aganist these people was a complete waste of taxpayers money.

Well at least they are getting some fencing for it.



Well some fencing anyway (ooo, they only put in some)

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
I support the right to protest.

Maybe I'm wrong but you seem to be constantly criticising those who avail of it. Maybe you have a different definition of "right" to the normally accepted one.

Cork

"I am clear that there are some people who are working to grow anti-Americanism in Ireland and Europe. They are doing this on the back of peaceful protest and humanitarian concerns- " - Mary Harney

Spending up to €1 million (TV3)

on security at Shannon after a certain group threatened to push down paremter fences.

These very same people will moan & groan about health services.

Ms Harney said she was "very unhappy about the stoking up of hostility to Tony Blair here in Ireland", and added: "Mr Blair has taken risks for peace.

Yet did SF ever go on the "Peace" train between Dublin & Belfast?

"The two key words in (UN) Resolution 1441 are full and immediate: full and immediate compliance; full and immediate co-operation; full and immediate disarmament of his weapons of mass destruction," Jack Straw told members of parliament from his Labour party at a meeting in this northwestern English town.

But have these protesters even read Resolution 1441 or Dr. Blix's damning report on Saddam?

""Even if (Iraqi President Saddam Hussein) were to destroy his Al-Samoud missiles, enormous stocks of poisonous chemicals and diseases would remain in the hands of (his) regime," Straw said.

Yet, do protesters atitude torwards the US blind them to Saddam?

I think, Mary Harney did hit the nail onthe head. She & Bertie support Resolution 1441 - Do these protesters?

bonkey

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
... do you actually suffer from terminal stupidity or do you forget that this is a democracy?

I'll remind you once.

Attack the post, not the poster.

jc

But have these protesters even read Resolution 1441 or Dr. Blix's damning report on Saddam?

Cork, how many people outside of these boards, in ireland have read Resolution 1441? Hell, before i joined these boards, i didn't know the Un had any resolutions against Iraq, nevermind that they actually enforced them. The average person in ireland will not know anything about these reports, or resolutions.

These very same people will moan & groan about health services.

Cork, you're moaning that these people are protesting against the use of shannon, and the damage a minority did, and yet you're blaming the whole... How do u have a better right to moan, since you seem to be moaning just as much abt the Health services in this post?

Mr Blair has taken risks for peace.

Yup. Thats why he's taking the risk, in encouraging Europe to go to War with Iraq. Um, no, he's really lookin for peace. Oh Yes! of course, War always comes first. Sry, i forgot about that.

Yet, do protesters atitude torwards the US blind them to Saddam?

Possibly. Same for my attitude to America. But does your attitude to Saddam blind you to what America is like?

daveirl

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The Saint

Can you really see a Palestinian nation, performing any better? Especially since Palestine did attack Israel originally.

Well before the creation of Israel a minority of Jews lived in what was Palestine in coplete peace with the Arabs. It was only after the creation of the state through Zionist terrorism and the ethnic cleansing of the land that the Arabs began revolting against their oppression. I wish people who make comments on such things would research the history a bit better. Jews were the original terrorists and aggressors which of course does not justify Arab terrorism but offers some perspective.