How many jet planes does a government need?

mike65

Don't ask me, anyone know?

Mike.

Gearoid

I would have thought that they would get a single boeing 737 and sell off the G4, having 3 seperate much smaller jets is proposed with just the Eu presidency in mind.
The problem up until the Mexican fiasco was that the G4 couldn't make long haul flights and had to make regular stops plus having to send baggage using alternative arrangments. 3 jets will allow flexibility during presidency but will not be much good for afterwards.

Cork

Originally posted by Gearoid
I would have thought that they would get a single boeing 737 and sell off the G4, having 3 seperate much smaller jets is proposed with just the Eu presidency in mind.
The problem up until the Mexican fiasco was that the G4 couldn't make long haul flights and had to make regular stops plus having to send baggage using alternative arrangments. 3 jets will allow flexibility during presidency but will not be much good for afterwards.

I think that the government needs one for long journeys and one for longer type journeys. And I think think that they will be using the clapped out one during the EU presidency.

gandalf

To be honest why can they not just use normal Airlines in this time of economic belt tightening. The arrogance and stupidity coming from the government are unbelieveable.

The best piece of writing I've seen on this has been from Kathy Sinnott in the Letters page of todays Irish Indo. I think it sums up my own feelings on this situation quite well.

Money for new jet can be better spent

Sir So, we are going to have another government jet in the air.


We are told that this is necessary because we are a modern European nation and our Taoiseach, ministers and senior civil servants must look and act the part.


But we are not a modern European nation. We are a country that has one neurologist for every 300,000 adults. A modern European nation has one neurologist for every 20,000 to 30,000 adults.


We have one immunologist for every two million people not very modern when you consider that one in three Irish people now has an auto-immune condition.


Nor can the fact that we hide away our mentally ill and disabled adults in psychiatric lock-ups and that our special needs children must fight in the courts for even basic education qualify us as a modern European nation.


If our ministers are meant to represent Ireland and the reality of life as they govern it, it's not jets, giving a false impression of modernity, that they should be taking to Brussels.


Far more representative of the reality of life in Ireland would be a method of travel that involved begging and waiting.


Perhaps hitching would be a more appropriate expression of our national modernity as experienced by the vulnerable in our modern European nation.


Kathy Sinnott,

Co Cork

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=53&si=926142&issue_id=8821


Gandalf.

Victor

Existing Minersterial Transport Service (MATS) aircraft.
Beech King Air 200
Cruise Speed - 240kts
Range - 1000 Nautical Miles
Normal seating - Max 3 crew, 7 passengers

Gulfstream Aerospace G.1159C Gulfstream IV
Max Speed - 465kts
Range - 4000 nautical miles
Normal seating - 14 Passengers, 4 Crew

Leased Aircraft - may end up being purchased
Cessna Citation

Possible Aircraft
Airbus A319 Corporate Jetliner
Max Speed - 428kts
Seating - 12-43 Passengers
Range 4,700 to 6,300nm (depending on configuration)

Boeing 737-800 Business Jet (BBJ - Berties Blow Job)
Max Speed - 428kts
Range - 8 passengers - 6,200 nm, 25 passengers - 5,935 nm, 50 passengers - 5,365 nm (all of Europe, North America, Africa, Asia, most of south America)

Bombardier (Learjet), Raytheon (Beech) and Gulfstream only make aircraft up to about 19 seats.

Discussion on Irish Military Online website
http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=374

Other aircraft

Speaking of our real "Air Force" heres the current state of play regarding equipment and what is currently serviceable from Smith.

The Air Corps at present have 17 fixed wing aircraft and 13 helicopters as follows:

(a) Six Cessna aircraft of American design and French manufacture are held. These are army co-operation aircraft with some offensive (air to ground) capability and with training capability which are all serviceable at present.

(b) One Beech Super Kingair twin-engined turbo-prop aircraft which is used for the Ministerial Air Transport Service and twin-engined pilot training and is serviceable at present.

(c) One Gulfstream IV aircraft which is used for transport of Ministers and officials. This aircraft is serviceable at present.

(d) Two CASA CN 235 aircraft which are used mainly for fishery surveillance purposes. One is serviceable at present and one is on scheduled maintenance and is expected back into service this week.

(e) Seven Alouette 111 helicopters are held. They are used for search and rescue, air ambulance and other services and have proved valuable in security operations. Three are currently serviceable. Three are on scheduled maintenance and are expected back in service in March 2003. One requires major overhaul in France which will take some time.

(f) Two Gazelle helicopters which are used for pilot training. One is serviceable at present. The other aircraft is unserviceable due to crash in 2002 and beyond economic repair.

(g) Four SA 365F Dauphin helicopters which are used for search and rescue. Two are serviceable and two are on scheduled maintenance. Both are expected back in service in March 2003.

(h) Seven Siai-Marchetti SF 260 W aircraft of Italian manufacture which are being used for basic pilot training, of which three are currently serviceable. Four are on scheduled maintenance with one scheduled to return to service during this week.

A contract was signed on 18 January 2003 for the supply of eight turbo propeller training aircraft for the Air Corps. These aircraft will replace the Siai Marchetti aircraft in the pilot training role. These aircraft will be delivered in 2004. In addition, two helicopters and one fixed wing aircraft owned by the

Garda Síochána are flown by the Air Corps. The two helicopters are currently serviceable. The fixed wing is on scheduled maintenance and is expected back in service by 21 February 2003.

Victor

And on a lighter note, a committee has agreed a design for the new jet.

Victor

Oh dear, I have committed a crime (again!).

OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT, 1963 SECTION 13
Acts contrary to safety or preservation of State. 9.—(1) A person shall not, in any manner prejudicial to the safety or preservation of the State—
( a ) obtain, record, communicate to any other person or publish, or
( b ) have in his possession or under his control any document containing, or other record whatsoever of,
information relating to—
(i) the number, description, armament, equipment, disposition, movement or condition of any of the Defence Forces or of any of the vessels or aircraft belonging to the State,
(ii) any operations or projected operations of any of the Defence Forces or of the Garda Síochána or of any of the vessels or aircraft belonging to the State,
(iii) any measures for the defence or fortification of any place on behalf of the State,
(iv) munitions of war, or
(v) any other matter whatsoever information as to which would or might be prejudicial to the safety or preservation of the State.
(2) Where a person is charged with a contravention of this section it shall be a good defence to prove that the act in respect of which he is charged was authorised by a Minister or by some person authorised in that behalf by a Minister or was done in the course of and in accordance with his duties as the holder of a public office.

Victor

I did some browsing and found that while many Air Forces around the world use Boeing 707 / 727 / 737 aircraft, most of these are in the "Passenger", as opposed to "VIP" bracket. Most air forces use BAe125/146/748, Learjet, Gulfstreams, Beech King / Queen Airs, Dassault Falcons and the like. The RAF has 8 VIP jets.

The purchase of a Boeing 737 or similar aircraft would appear to be unwarranted for a country of our size unless it is primarily configured as a passenger aircraft. For some extra cost and at a weight penalty a convertible (VIP/passenger/cargo) aircraft could be purchased.

RAF VIP
http://www.raf.mod.uk/airpower/bae125.html
http://www.raf.mod.uk/airpower/bae146.html

RAF Passenger
http://www.raf.mod.uk/airpower/vc10.html
http://www.raf.mod.uk/airpower/tristar.html

mike65

Pat Kenny prog had a disucssion
on this today with a couple of aviation industry types who reckoned the government could do alot worse than buy a second hand 737 as the savings would justify higher running costs. Aparently prices start at 8 mill for something 20 years old (!).

Mike.

gandalf

Oh this saga gets better and better.

Appartently according to a story in the Indo one of the reasons the current Government jet is knackered is because Bertie & Company don't like travelling to Baldonnel where the Jet is based therefore they fly it to Dublin Airport meaning it has a "disproportionate number of take-offs and landings" to quote the story. The Government Jet has had a total of 8400 hrs flying time whereas the average for Aer Lingus is 30-40,000 hrs.

Oh and the cost to save the "leaders" of this country 30 minutes in traffic is estimated at €143,000 last year alone. No wonder they want to restrict the FOI act with wasteful indulgences like this.

Gandalf.

Story here http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=928826&issue_id=8843

mike65

Can't you drive on the M-50 pretty much "door to door" between the airport and Baldonnel? About 30 mins drive tops? (me cultchie so not certain..)

Mike.

sceptre

Originally posted by mike65
Can't you drive on the M-50 pretty much "door to door" between the airport and Baldonnel? About 30 mins drive tops? (me cultchie so not certain..)

Ah you can - just a little bit down the N7 to Baldonnel from the M50. Drumcondra is probably easier to reach from Collinstown though (we really should have an evil grin smilie so I'll just pop in a :rolleyes: instead)

Dun

I read this story in a hurry this morning, and had myself convinced by this evening that it wasn't true until I was able to re-read it there now.

Words escape me and my disgust.

Victor

Originally posted by gandalf
Oh this saga gets better and better.

Apparently the problem with the tail is because there was insufficient hanger space and the tail was left out in the rain for extended periods.

gandalf

Originally posted by Victor
Apparently the problem with the tail is because there was insufficient hanger space and the tail was left out in the rain for extended periods.

And now they want a bigger plane OH FFS.

How much would it have cost to build another hanger (compared to the cost of a new plane!), this crowd shouldn't even be in charge of a corner shop let alone the country.

Gandalf.

Victor

There was a recent article (Irish Independent?) saying the reason the Gulfstream is screwed was because a third of it's flights were from Baldonnel to Dublin Airport (Bertie's preferred departure point). Hmmm, €500,000 a year so Bertie can have another 10 minutes in bed :rolleyes:

"The tender for the smaller aircraft says it should include an air ambulance option capable of taking a stretcher unit with oxygen. Entertainment and refreshment facilities were also required." Wow, someone gets hospitalised and they still want to be able to booze it up

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/920432?view=Eircomnet

Fears that delivery of State jet may be delayed
From:ireland.com
Tuesday, 24th June, 2003

The Government might not take delivery of its new jet until shortly before Ireland's EU presidency begins in January.

While tenders said the jet should be in service by October, Government sources said there was a growing perception that that deadline might not be met.

Government sources attributed a delay to an eight-week evaluation of tenders by the Department of Defence, which is not expected to produce its initial findings for another two to three weeks.

The evaluation process is made more complex by the fact that the Government has said it is open to the purchase of second-hand aircraft.

However, the indication from well-placed Government sources that Ministers might have to wait until the end of the year for the jet might be interpreted as sign that they favour the purchase of a new aircraft at this stage in the process.

When asked about evaluation, the Department of Defence said it was still feasible to meet the October deadline.

The department's spokesman said: "There's no guarantee that it is do-able. There could well be companies with partially-built aircraft. I certainly wouldn't rule out October to get it up an running."

The Government said in separate advertisements in the EU Journal that it wanted to acquire one 45-seater aircraft in place of the 14-seater Gulfstream, and a smaller seven-seater aircraft to replace the five-seater Beechcraft. If purchased new the two aircraft could cost up to €70 million.

It is believed that Airbus and Boeing, the two main plane-makers, are both in the running for the contract for the bigger jet. The identity of other bidders is not known.

Amid tighter public finances leading to the closure of hospital beds, the decision to purchase the aircraft was criticised by the Opposition. But the Government, which had publicised a series of breakdowns of the Gulfstream jet, has said it needs a bigger aircraft to enable it to fulfil it duties under the EU presidency.

The tender for the larger aircraft said the layout must include a separate forward compartment with eight seats. The tender for the smaller aircraft says it should include an air ambulance option capable of taking a stretcher unit with oxygen. Entertainment and refreshment facilities were also required.

Sparks

And there's yet another story from within the Aer Corps which points out that the hanger is in fact big enough for the GIV, but one journalist gets a candid snap and the next thing you know, the entire nation believes the jet is habitually tied down outside the hanger.
It's damage (according to the same sources) is because it was used for ab initio pilot training by the Aer Corps, which is an activity that generally reduces an aircraft's lifespan significantly unless it's designed for that activity.

mike65

Originally posted by Victor


"The tender for the smaller aircraft says it should include an air ambulance option capable of taking a stretcher unit with oxygen. Entertainment and refreshment facilities were also required." Wow, someone gets hospitalised and they still want to be able to booze it up

That canister will be for laughing gas not oxygen!

Originally posted by Sparks
It's damage (according to the same sources) is because it was used for ab initio pilot training by the Aer Corps, which is an activity that generally reduces an aircraft's lifespan significantly unless it's designed for that activity.

Sounds like an ex-driving school Nissan Micra...

Mike.

Sparks

The tender for the smaller aircraft says it should include an air ambulance option

Sounds great until you look at the record of the aer corp's time for the last year where you see that air ambulance work was a seriously small fraction of their work compared to that of moving TDs about the place...

Sounds like an ex-driving school Nissan Micra

More like an ex-driving school Rolls Royce...

de5p0i1er

They want these jets let them chough up the cash themselves they must have made €50,000,000 in backhanders by now.

growler

this may be an unpopular opinion , but as we assume presidency of the EU and are a relatively rich nation by world standards our elected TD's and ministers are representing our nation when they travel abroad , i certainly don't begrudge (coz that is what this is essentially about , traditional irish begrudgery) them the basictrappings of power and a level of sophistication in their presentation. The state is a large "commercial" entity , if it were a multi million coporation you would expect it's executives to have private jets, chauffeurs and first class accomodation , simple fact is you have to appear to be of similar status as those you are conducting business with.

Would you really have them fly Ryanair to a summit, stay at a b&b and dine in McDonalds? Do you want us to be a laughing stock ?Things may have been mismanged or even abused in the past but thats no reason to for us to play the poor gombeen of Europe.

Sparks

How about they fly on our national airling, stay in a Jurys hotel or the equivalent thereof, and dine at an ordinary restaurant?
We need the money they're spending on private jets for other things.

nellieswellies

Personally I would not mind being an international laughing stock on the basis of superficial persona if we had a half decent healthcare system, education system and infrastructure. There are far better ways to spend that money.

Victor

Growler, fair enough, give them some prestige, however they don't need a 45-person aircraft. If they ever do need a 45-person aircraft, hire it for the day.

Sparks

Growler, Victor,
Why give them prestige? The leaders of other countries of our size require no business jets for that. If the EU wish to provide one on a rotating basis for the EU president, great. But why should we foot the bill for a government jet when we don't even have a national air ambulance?
Like I said, they're our government, so let them use our national airline. Or isn't it good enough for them?

Victor

Originally posted by Sparks
Or isn't it good enough for them?

It's a matter of priorities, executive jets can be useful to move small groups of high value individuals (who need to be paid also) rapidly. Aer Lingus first class to New York costs soemthing like €3,000 return - multiply that 10 times and the balance moves in favour of the executive jet.

growler

Why give them prestige? The leaders of other countries of our size require no business jets for that

where did you read that ? what other countries are you referring to ?

if it was an EU one you can bet it would be even bigger, fancier and probably cost us as much in the long run.

they deserve prestige as they are representing ireland , our country.

Sparks

It's a matter of priorities, executive jets can be useful to move small groups of high value individuals (who need to be paid also) rapidly. Aer Lingus first class to New York costs soemthing like €3,000 return - multiply that 10 times and the balance moves in favour of the executive jet.

€3,000 return for one person is a damn sight more economical than the cost of buying, staffing, operating and maintaining a private jet.

where did you read that ? what other countries are you referring to ?

Well, let's take the UK (more than ten times our population and far richer, and a major member of the EU). From their travel recommendations regarding air travel:

III. AIR TRAVEL
Scheduled Passenger Services
21. All Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries on official visits have discretion to use civil scheduled flights in this country and abroad if they consider that this will save time. Wherever possible British airlines should be used, but if the route or time of a Minister’s journey makes this impossible, subject to any security restraints which may apply, a scheduled flight on a foreign airline may be taken.
22. Senior Ministers are entitled to use the best available class of air travel for all journeys by air. Ministers of State and Parliamentary Secretaries may travel by the best available class for flights lasting longer than 2½ hours but should normally travel by Club or equivalent class, or economy class when an intermediate class is not available, on flights of less than 2½ hours.
Non-scheduled Special Flights
23. These are flights for official purposes, in this country and abroad, using aircraft belonging to the Ministry of Defence or commercial operators. They are generally much more expensive than scheduled passenger services and may only be authorised in the manner and circumstances described in the paragraphs below. They must not be used or diverted for journeys to or from Party business, such as constituency visits or attendance at Party meetings. When the time factor is critical, diversions from direct routes may, however, be authorised to collect or deliver a Minister to an airfield near his or her home provided that the only extra costs result from the extra flying time needed to carry out the additional landing and take-off.
24. Members of the Cabinet and Ministers in charge of Departments only have discretion to authorise these special flights either for themselves or for other Ministers within their Departments. Special flights may be authorised when a scheduled service is not available, or when it is essential to travel by air, but the requirements of official or Parliamentary business or security considerations or urgency preclude the journey being made by a scheduled service. Use of special flights by Parliamentary Secretaries should only be approved in exceptional circumstances.
25. In addition, all Defence Ministers travelling on Defence business and other Ministers engaged on business of the Defence Departments or visiting a Service or Defence Establishment may use Ministry of Defence aircraft in accordance with rules and procedures approved by the Secretary of State for Defence.

So if the UK government are supposed to use scheduled civil flights unless it's impossible (and they don't even get to have first class flights until they're senior ministers), why do we need not one, but three private jets/turboprops?

if it was an EU one you can bet it would be even bigger, fancier and probably cost us as much in the long run.

What I said was that the EU could provide a jet if they so desired - but we wouldn't be picking up the tab on that one, at least not alone.

they deserve prestige as they are representing ireland , our country.

I'm sooooo tempted to say something about how even a gold-plated business jet couldn't do much to promote that, given the records of those inside the jet...

mike65

Bump!

From unison.ie

Government jet will not be replaced

The Cabinet have announced that they are not going to replace the ageing Government jet. Tenders had been sought for a replacement for Gulfstream Four aircraft, which has regularly broken down, but this evening ministers decided that they would not be paying for a new one in the current economic climate.

Mike.

Sparks

Bloody hell. A good decision! That was unexpected...

Third_Echelon

what a crazy decision.... that gulfstream is a flying coffin waiting for an accident to happen...

i agree that the money isnt there at the moment and could be spent elsewhere but the gulfstream defo needs to be replaced...

rather than buying a brand new boeing business jet or equivalent airbus business jet, i think they should look into a leasing or sharing arrangement.... i know in america, that a lot of big corporations buy a share in a jet and have scheduled air time etc...

if this doesnt suit the government then without a doubt, Aer Lingus should be used... there is absolutely nothing wrong with our minister using the national carrier...