How many jet planes does a government need?

Villain

Originally posted by Third_Echelon

if this doesnt suit the government then without a doubt, Aer Lingus should be used... there is absolutely nothing wrong with our minister using the national carrier...

Dido
exactly what I think

sceptre

In the interest of the thing not crashing, it'd be nice if it didn't have to make numerous quick flights from Baldonnel to Collinstown any more.

I'm sure they could work out a discount scheme with Aer Lingus. Think of the airmile points!

Lennoxschips

The Australian Prime Minister flies Qantas.

Occidental

Despite the shouting from the hilltops about not buying a 737, our glorious leaders have not been quite so vocal about the Learjet 45 they are paying €10m for from Bombardier.

The grand plan for our presidency of the EU is 1 x Gulfstream 4 (which is not a flying coffin, despite what Bertie would like you to think), 1 x Learjet 45 and 1 leased buisness jet (which has yet to be decided). It shall be interesting to see how large the leased buisness jet turns out to be.

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/2186431?view=Eircomnet

New €8m Government jet arrives tomorrow
From:ireland.com
Thursday, 18th December, 2003

The Government will take delivery of its new €8 million jet tomorrow. The LearJet 45 is expected to fly from the US via Iceland and will land at Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel, tomorrow evening.

It will be officially unveiled to the media on Monday morning at Baldonnel before Aer Corps pilots undertake a round of familiarisation flights. The first official flights are expected to take place within two weeks.

The eight-seater jet, which was built by Bombardier LearJet, is seen as vital to Ireland's EU presidency, which begins on January 1st.

The Minister for Defence, Mr Smith, said it was "reassuring for the Government to know that the Air Corps and the Defence Forces can be relied on 100 per cent" for air transport during the six-month presidency term.

"Contrary to what you are likely to read in the media, this is not a luxury item but rather an essential tool for the coming EU presidency. At a net cost of €8 million this aircraft is excellent value for money and, as it was funded from savings made from within my Department's budget, it is not costing the Irish taxpayer an extra penny.

"For the next six months, Ministers, Ministers of State and their officials will be obliged to attend literally hundreds of meetings across Europe, while at the same time trying to manage their Departments and deliver for Ireland.

"We will have responsibility for the political management and well-being of over 380 million people. And, through its involvement in the flying and maintenance of the Government's air transport service, the Air Corps will be playing an essential and crucial role in Ireland's presidency."

The LearJet 45 has a maximum flying range of 1,900 nautical miles with a full complement of passengers, meaning that it can travel to Moscow or Istanbul from Dublin. Such a range is far greater than that of the aging five-seater turbo-prop Beechcraft used since 1980.

The Government has also had a 14-seat Gulfstream IV aircraft since 1991. That will be retained. Mr Smith has also confirmed the State will take delivery next year of eight Pilatus PC 9M turbo-prop trainer aircraft at a cost of €60 million.

Sparks

Wonderful. Nice to see we're keeping the old belts well tightened for a good cause, isn't it?
:rolleyes:

Gob****s, the lot of them.

Morpheus

The bloody defence forces have paid for this glorified limo, they could have used that money to buy decent SAR helicopters, or a few more personell carriers or even put it towards a much needed naval vessel, instead,the money they earned by selling off some of theyre unused land has paid for it.

It hasnt come directly out of your pocket, it hasnt come from the new budget, ive yet to see another govt dept fund its own equipment? And the Defence forces are lucky it was only an 8 seater and not the airbus or 737 that bertie was wishing for.

The Dept of defence is a dept that runs on unbelievably tight belts already, in a western state it is unheard of a 1st world country to spendless than 0.5% GDP on a 3rd world defence, (the average by other neutrals and by neutral i mean constitutionally which we are not, is around 2 or 4%)

If Irish people new how really vulnerable and ill equipped our army,navy and air corps is, they would be crying out, not because of the money being spent in the wrong department but because it is mis-spent on the wrong equipment, the defence forces have been backed into a corner by the govt over this private jet issue and its a coup that they have managed to keep the damage done to a scarce 8m euro.

AND no we DONT need another jet, Bertie SHOULD travel on the national carrier, indeed the funding put into AerLingus over the years by the state should have paid enough for them to always lay on at least a 737 for the govt for free whenever it is required.

Yes i KNOW we have a neutral defence policy (note WE ARE NOT CONSTITUTIONALY NEUTRAL ) so do a number of other european countries, yet unlikje our neutral partners, we must constantly rely on allies to defend our skies and to pull drowning seamen from our waters.

Surely you, the people of Ireland, agree that we should have the right equipment, training, manpower and funding to look after ourselves or we will never ever be able to stand up and say "no, we dont agree with what your doing, because we are neutral." ???


The health service is in a sh*te state due to unbelieveably bad mis-management, to compare its costs with that of the dept of defence is a joke, and NOT an argument, the ammount of money pumped into that hole of a dept could easily supply the aircorps witha fleet of aircraft that would be used as air ambulance, air sea rescue and the irish men and women in the army, when on peace keeping missions, would know that on a moments notice they could be air-evacuated if anything should go t*ts up.

The dept of defence has more or less had no choice in replacing the old aircraft and they have done well in keeping costs down, dont knock them, and dont worry about your pocket change, the dept of health would do well if the govt pumped the money from the increase in fags into yet another whitepaper this time on their dept. the health boards (note the plural in a state half the size of the UK we have 5 or more) should be amalgamated and streamlined. I could go on but i wont, we dont need the jet and the dept of defence didnt need to pick up the costs. INDEED i think that we the irish people SHOULD have paid for it seperate from the defence forces own meagre paltry budget.

My 2c.

:dunno:

Capt'n Midnight

Have my encyclopedia of world air power (1980) let's see what it says...
Current status in italics from victor's earlier post.

The Air Corps at present have 17 fixed wing aircraft and 13 helicopters as follows:

(a) Six Cessna aircraft of American design and French manufacture are held. These are army co-operation aircraft with some offensive (air to ground) capability and with training capability which are all serviceable at present.Seven of eight cessna FR 172Hs with provision for underwing stores patrol the borders in 1980

(b) One Beech Super Kingair twin-engined turbo-prop aircraft which is used for the Ministerial Air Transport Service and twin-engined pilot training and is serviceable at present.One Beech King Air 200 on a three year lease.

(c) One Gulfstream IV aircraft which is used for transport of Ministers and officials. This aircraft is serviceable at present.Only Gulfstream II were around in 1980

(d) Two CASA CN 235 aircraft which are used mainly for fishery surveillance purposes. One is serviceable at present and one is on scheduled maintenance and is expected back into service this week.Not listed

(e) Seven Alouette 111 helicopters are held. They are used for search and rescue, air ambulance and other services and have proved valuable in security operations. Three are currently serviceable. Three are on scheduled maintenance and are expected back in service in March 2003. One requires major overhaul in France which will take some time.Eight listed in 1980

(f) Two Gazelle helicopters which are used for pilot training. One is serviceable at present. The other aircraft is unserviceable due to crash in 2002 and beyond economic repair.First flight by a Gazelle was 7 April 1967

(g) Four SA 365F Dauphin helicopters which are used for search and rescue. Two are serviceable and two are on scheduled maintenance. Both are expected back in service in March 2003.First flight 24 Jan 1975

(h) Seven Siai-Marchetti SF 260 W aircraft of Italian manufacture which are being used for basic pilot training, of which three are currently serviceable. Four are on scheduled maintenance with one scheduled to return to service during this week.Ten listed in 1980 - first flown 15 July 1965

A contract was signed on 18 January 2003 for the supply of eight turbo propeller training aircraft for the Air Corps. These aircraft will replace the Siai Marchetti aircraft in the pilot training role. These aircraft will be delivered in 2004. In addition, two helicopters and one fixed wing aircraft owned by the Garda Síochána are flown by the Air Corps. The two helicopters are currently serviceable. The fixed wing is on scheduled maintenance and is expected back in service by 21 February 2003.

What do the Silver Swallows display team use now ?

Overall the last time the Air Corps had aircraft that wern't withdrawn from front line service in other countries was during WW II when some crash landed British Fighters were repaird and put into service.

So apart from fisheries and Govt transport we have the sort of air corps you'd expect from an impoverished third world country. Instead we have a training college for AerLingus...

Cork

Depends on the envisaged role for the Air Corp & any possible Pan European meutual defence Iniatatives.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Depends on the envisaged role for the Air Corp & any possible Pan European meutual defence Iniatatives.

The envisaged role for the Aer Corps never has been and never should be to act as a training ground for Aer Lingus or the other airlines. Plain and simple. As to "mutual defence treaties", we're not in any, at least none that the Irish people were asked to vote on.
If you can name one that we voted to be a part of, spit it out Cork.
Otherwise, give it a rest...

Cork

Can I quote Young Fine Gael (Link )?

Even among Irish Opposition Partys - Irish Foriegn policy is being debated.

YEPP notes that until these changes are made, it may be necessary to act independent of a UN mandate such as in the Kosovo crisis.

NATO is the best framework in which to forge this policy.
YEPP welcomes NATO enlargement. A strong autonomous European defence benefits both Europe and NATO. We support a transformed NATO in which the Atlantic alliance is strengthened and the EU takes on a stronger political and military role.


The Partnership for Peace (PfP) will allow EU neutrals to co-operate fully in an EU Defence although it would be better if all EU member states also become full members of NATO.

The neutral states retain the right not to participate in military operations..

Capt'n Midnight

This mean we'd get a Navy too - the quality of it is way better than the AirCorps - but far too few to do fisheries or coastguard never mind both at the same time...
Remember they even got rid of that confiscated spanish trawler that was making a profit.

If we want to have viable self defense forces we'd be better off buying some saab's (non-aligned and AFAIK not involved in any bribery scandals like a lot of US companies). At the moment the best you could say we have is counter insurgancy - though since stinger missiles etc. have been sold up north even that could be in doubt.

Yes SAR would also be important - not exactly a matter of national pride that the RAF still do air sea rescue from Wales because we don't have enough helicopters to guarantee cover. - In fact a lot of AirForces use radar picket heli's for SAR too. - So could combine fisheries protection too. (Which is a profitable exercise)

Back in 1980 by comparison with other small nations Denmak had 8 SAR Sea Kings, Norway had 10,

Belgium - had one Sikorsky and three Alouette III's for SAR - but that was 23 years ago and for a much smaller area which was also covered by UK, Holland and France and to an lesser extent Germany.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Can I quote Young Fine Gael (Link )?

You can quote them all you want - the odds of me taking their policy decisions as correct are somewhat less than slim...

Even among Irish Opposition Partys - Irish Foriegn policy is being debated.

Note that there you use the word "debate". Not something we've seen a lot of from this government, which has specialised in dictating policy with closed-door decisions and guillitined Dail and Seanad sessions.

Cork

The opposition are all over the shop on this one.

But the Sunday Business Post reported that

Link

The Irish government came under strong political pressure from the French government to choose French-made helicopters for the Irish Aer Corps, in the interests of "implementing a common European security and defence policy".

Un-provoked political pressue from foriegn powers needs resistance.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
The opposition are all over the shop on this one.

*sigh*
:rolleyes:

Yes Cork, you see there are more than one opposition party and they have different ideas as to how to do things.

Un-provoked political pressue from foriegn powers needs resistance.

Indeed Cork, I heartily agree. Which is why I was so pissed off when Bertie, on behalf of the country, bent over and offered the Shrub a large tub of KY Jelly...

Cork

Originally posted by Cork


Link

Maybe, we could ask the US for some help dealing with the French.

Seiously, we deserse decent military services for peace keeping.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Maybe, we could ask the US for some help dealing with the French.

Yes, because that's what we need most :rolleyes:

Seiously, we deserse decent military services for peace keeping.

And that has what, exactly, to do with the government not being willing to sit on an airline plane with the rest of us schmucks?

Cork

They had one. It was clapped out.

They bought a new one.

Where has Policy has changed?

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
They had one.

Which they shouldn't have had.

It was clapped out.

No, it was damaged because it got used for ab inito training by the Aer Corps pilots who flew it. This is what I meant by saying that Purchasing is not the cheaper option cork...

They bought a new one.
Where has Policy has changed?

None. That's the problem. The policy was wrong before, it's wrong now, and we can't afford it.

Cork

Rock Stars & Film Stars can afford Jets. But Ireland Inc can't.

Such Jets are ultilised.

The same case could be made for state cars when we give massive subventions to CIE.

I know, many MEPS & TDS use commercial Airlines.

Bertie might want to get over to london for a meeting at a given time. Is he to check plane timetables before hand?

Commercial Airlines too have a cost. Booking flights on short notice can cost an arm and a leg.

A Government Jet has a pretty long life and it is an investment.

We will have the EU Presidency from January. If we did not have a jet for this 6 months - We'd have to hire one.

The old one served this country well & was a worthwhile investment.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Rock Stars & Film Stars can afford Jets. But Ireland Inc can't.

Rock stars and film stars and business leaders do not need to pay for schools, hospitals, gardai, nurses, teachers, doctors, roadworks, SAR services, fire services, and the thousand and one other parts of our country which all take priority over Bertie's desire not to use our national airline so as to avoid contact with the great unwashed public.
As such, your comparison is meaningless.

The same case could be made for state cars when we give massive subventions to CIE.

Indeed it could in many cases - and I for one would welcome the sight of Jackie-Healy Rae sitting on the train from Tralee to Dublin when en route to the Dail, rather than sitting in his Merc. It might actually motivate him to fix the problems he was elected to fix, rather than to line his own nest.
Such measures might also hasten the construction of a working LUAS....
And might lead to fewer offical cars been seen travelling at well above both the speed limit and the safest speed at which such cars can be driven....

But for now, I would be happy to see commercial airlines being used as a first step.

I know, many MEPS & TDS use commercial Airlines.

And yet the government works and the EU does not grind to a halt.
What then, therefore, can possibly be the reason for paying so much money (not merely the purchase cost, but the maintainance and training costs, as well as the premature depreciation on the aircraft due to the ab inito training the aer corps must then carry out on the aircraft) on what is, by your own words, an unnecessary luxury?
Especially at a time when the government is telling all of us that we must accept cutbacks and economic times that are not as good as what has been before.

The principle they must learn, Cork, is to lead by example.

Bertie might want to get over to london for a meeting at a given time. Is he to check plane timetables before hand?

Is he not to?
If I have a meeting to attend, I must check plane timetables. It takes all of five minutes online, and that's when I do it myself. Bertie has staff who arrange such things and so it takes none of his time. His timetable is set days in advance and arrangements can easily be made.
In short, it is not a problem.

Commercial Airlines too have a cost. Booking flights on short notice can cost an arm and a leg.

Indeed. I know this. However, such last-moment bookings need never be made, except in extreme circumstances, which are thankfully rare - and as the National Carrier, I am more than certain that Aer Lingus would be happy to make arrangements to reduce the cost - as you said yourself, companies love to be seen to be involved in this way with the runnign of a country. For the cost to them of a reduced rate for government ministers, they can claim in advertising that you fly with the same airline entrusted with the government...

A Government Jet has a pretty long life and it is an investment.

But it does not and it is not.
Recall, the last jet was retired less than a third of the way into it's lifespan because it was being used for ab inito training by the Aer Corps. Which had to be done, because it was bought instead of leased with trained pilots and maintainance staff.

As such, it is nothing more than a waste of a lot of money on an extravagant and - by your own admission - unnecessary luxury at a time when we cannot afford such things.

We will have the EU Presidency from January. If we did not have a jet for this 6 months - We'd have to hire one.

No, we would not. And even if we decided to do so, in full knowlege that it was a luxury, it would still be cheaper and better to lease one for the year than to purchase one.

The old one served this country well & was a worthwhile investment.

It did not, and it was not. It was a waste of money and served only to pamper people who forgot they were there to serve us, not to rule us.

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by Cork
Commercial Airlines too have a cost. Booking flights on short notice can cost an arm and a leg.

A Government Jet has a pretty long life and it is an investment.

Think of the frequent flier miles he'll build up - loads of free flights (BIK implications ?)

From my previous post you'll see that most of the AirCorps aircraft that are used for real work were purchased in the 1970's !!! - by this measure the Govt' jet had a very short life.

And as for being an investment you can expect the cost of jet engine replacements over the life of the plane to equal or exceed the initial cost - never mind all the other items - and you can't use second hand parts...

Also if Bertie needs to be in London PDQ - the cost of videoconferencing equipment is less than the fuel used on the return trip. And there are flights every half hour or so.

Victor

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
What do the Silver Swallows display team use now ?

Marchettis, but they are no longer formally the "Silver Swallows".

Turkey

Just to inject an element of accuracy into this discussion; the present operational government jet [G4]was damaged in the distant past because it was stored in a hanger that was too small for it.It was not ever used for ab inito training, this exercise is carried out by another aircraft, the Beechking.
The G4 is in excellent shape and is capable of at least another 12-15 years of operations.
In common with the Lear 45,it is a complet waste of money and is not needed for any purpose, indeed it has only carried out one worthwhile mission in it's life; when it transported Brian Keenan home from the middle east when the terrorists released him.
The Irish Air Corps [note correct spelling] would be better served, as would the Irish public, and the world at large by a fleet of general purpose Cargo aircrafts such as C130's or Casa 235 or 295, which could transport troops , be available for aid, such as Iran presently desperatly needs, or at a pinch, transport a minister to a meeting on the very rare occasion when a normal airliner was not available.
Then money could be made available for the helicopters, trainers , maritime patrol aircrafts, and fighter aircrafts without which this country has no future, apart from being the laughing stock of the world.
Incidently a few main battle tanks and other army vehicles would not hurt either, along with an application form from NATO!

Sparks

Originally posted by Turkey
Just to inject an element of accuracy into this discussion; the present operational government jet [G4]was damaged in the distant past because it was stored in a hanger that was too small for it.It was not ever used for ab inito training, this exercise is carried out by another aircraft, the Beechking.

Not what the pilots posting on the Irish Aviation board have stated consistenly and backed up over the past few years. I'd post links but the board appears to be down I guess you'll have to take my word for it Turkey - but then you read those articles too I'm guessing....

The Irish Air Corps [note correct spelling] would be better served, as would the Irish public, and the world at large by a fleet of general purpose Cargo aircrafts such as C130's or Casa 235 or 295, which could transport troops , be available for aid, such as Iran presently desperatly needs, or at a pinch, transport a minister to a meeting on the very rare occasion when a normal airliner was not available.
Then money could be made available for the helicopters, trainers , maritime patrol aircrafts, and fighter aircrafts without which this country has no future, apart from being the laughing stock of the world.
Incidently a few main battle tanks and other army vehicles would not hurt either, along with an application form from NATO!

Turkey, you and I have had this discussion on several other boards, including boards for professional, military and private pilots who actually know what's involved in great detail. No-one's ever agreed with you before, and your arguments to back up your thesis don't seem to have changed, so why would anyone agree with you now, just because you've changed from saying we need a full fighter squadron of F-16s and an Irish version of the 101st airborne right now, to saying we need a squadron of troop transports first?

Maybe if the Irish army had any interest in shooting straight, I'd agree with you, but they don't, and they don't serve outside this country without logistical backup from the UN force they're assigned to, so we don't need C130s.

We need schools and hospitals and doctors, nurses and teachers.
Get enough of them first, then worry about toys for the boys.

Turkey

Sparks, no matter how often you repeat a lie , it still remains a lie, the Irish army can still shoot straighter then you, in the event that some scum are firing back!
I am almost 20 years older then you, I know the truth , w**kers and left wing filth on Irish avaition web[now closed down] do not , try growing up , I seen the results in enough funerals, [it hurts,]I have no desire to see any more, but as long as government policy remains the way it is, my desire will be meaningless .
Incidently, we have more then enough teachers, nurses, doctors, hospitals, and schools, we only have to f**k out the non working administrators to make both systems work.
I have never said we need fighters right now........... they should have been here 20/30 years ago.
Also , Spark as far as I am aware you are the only ********* who disagrees with me, you were offerd a truce, because beneath all your adolecent stupidity there exists the faint signs of a brain, you rejected it, --face the consequences!!!!!!!!!
Now I know your ego is so large that you cannot comprehend that someone might know more then you, but I assure you that this is the case.

BTW, I do not post anything, that may be interpeted as fact without checking it from at least 2 sources.[sometimes more].[you could try that yourself--mind you; so could G Bush]

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight

What do the Silver Swallows display team use now ?

They don't use anything....

Also, the stories about lack of hangar space in Baldonnel is completely false.

They also do not fly to Dublin Airport because ministers are too lazy to go to Baldonnel. They would have a Garda escort in any case, which would make the trip virtually the same.

As for the debate about the planes, the G4 and Learjet are both being heavily used in the first couple of weeks of the EU presidency, I'm pretty sure that after the 6 months are up, it wouldn't have been as cost-effective as leasing planes.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Sparks
Not what the pilots posting on the Irish Aviation board have stated consistenly and backed up over the past few years. I'd post links but the board appears to be down I guess you'll have to take my word for it Turkey - but then you read those articles too I'm guessing....

The G4 is not used for training, there is only 3 or 4 pilots who regularly fly it. The Beech is used for training, as stated above.

Sparks

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
As for the debate about the planes, the G4 and Learjet are both being heavily used in the first couple of weeks of the EU presidency, I'm pretty sure that after the 6 months are up, it wouldn't have been as cost-effective as leasing planes.

You lease aircraft for a set period of time Tommy, not on a per-flight basis. That's chartering, a different arrangement alltogether.

Sparks

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
The G4 is not used for training, there is only 3 or 4 pilots who regularly fly it. The Beech is used for training, as stated above.

Not is used, was used. By the three or four pilots who regularly fly it.
They'd never flown jets of that class before flying the Gulfstream.