Suspended From Work

LegacyUser

Ok long story here... First of all, my friend Alice has no idea that I know this story. So I'm deliberately trying to be vague about the details. I'll be specific where I can, but I've been asked by Alices partner to get some advice, I thought what better/worse place than boards. Get both sides of the stick.

My friend Alice works in sales for a stuff company. She has been there for 30 odd years in the same job. Shes bloody good at her job. Has always come in well above her monthly and yearly targets, regularly beating everybody else in that same department every month. Up till about 4 weeks ago she sold all of the companies products, but mainly dealt in product Y. Then one day she's told that she's not allowed to sell product Y anymore, and this new 20something is hired to sell only product Y pretty much making Alices job reduntant. Alice is then told that she may only sell product X. This month her sales were way below her usuaul targets.

Now she was offered a company PC to take home, as they were upgrading the office PC's. She thought it logical to copy some helpful things off of the company network, to bring home, as she works from home on occasion. Main idea was to use this information to see who hadnt bought any product Xin a while, and who might need some more. Basically using the company resources for company gain. Offsite I know, but giving her the leads she needs to reach those all important targets.

Anyway the IT guys came in on Saturday to install the new computers. They saw file copy complete on the screen and investigated it. They reported it to the bosses, and Alice was called in for a meeting.

Her instant reaction was to claim it was an accident. She said that she had just dragged and dropped files and wasnt sure what she was copying. She was suspended at the end of this meeting, with full pay.

At the second meeting she admitted she knew what the information was, but only wanted it for above stated reasons.

The company have now said that they will reach a decision in the next couple of weeks.

As we see it one of 3 things will happen.

1. Alice Gets Sacked
She intends to follow something like this up with unfair dismissals as she feels she was forced into this situation by the above mentioned job transfer, and other contributing factors.
What sort of choices are open here?

2. Alice gets made Redundant.
What are her minimum reduntancy entitlements after working so long in this company?

3. Alice keeps her job, but only on their strict terms.
What sort of choices are open to her here? She doesnt want to crumble to their will, but she knows that if this is the case, she will not enjoy working here anymore.

So.. Options People?

Kell

Depends on the T's & C's of her contract really regarding company confidentiality. I think they were a bit rash TBH as she does not seem to have been offered an opportunity to return whatever it was she took, hold her hands up and go "I've been an ass". Personally I would get her to check her employment contract and speak to the Labour relations people as well.

In relation to the outcome of the meeting and she gets to saty on but under x conditions and feels she has to leave, then she can always claim involuntary redundancy I think it's called and try and take legal action that way.

Review employment contract first though. A lot of them say things like "or at the companys discretion, deems the employee to have committed an act of gross misconduct" which is a get out clause to fúck you on a whim.

Not sure if that was helpful.

growler

hi ,

i guess this depends almost entirely on the terms of her employment , if there is a contract that specifically states that you can't copy files, take sensitive material sout of the workplace they might be able to fire her, but it would be very harsh and probably open to further legal action.

redundancy isn't an option, too much legal process to be worth the company's time

it does sound like either a constructive dismissal , ie making the work environment so bad that the employee resigns
or (leaving aside the debacle about the file copying, which should be a storm in a tea cup) maybe they are trying to get the best from her as a salesperson for X. A salesperson should be able to sell a new product , its not all that unreasonable , though slightly daft if sales of Y start to fall.

options 1 and 2 , she has a case for compensation I think , option 3 may not make much business sense in the long run , she jsut needs to be smarter (like not saying oops i copied by accident)

Kell

Originally posted by NoWork
1. Alice Gets Sacked
She intends to follow something like this up with unfair dismissals as she feels she was forced into this situation by the above mentioned job transfer, and other contributing factors.
What sort of choices are open here?

Just had a think about that one. Again, back to contractual duties for a second, most peoples contracts or job offers usually have a line somewhere at the end of your job description that reads:

"Or other duties assigned by your manager as they arise from time to time" or something like that, so no one really forced her to take anything from work as she probably signed up for this "non normal" work ages ago. That is if said contract, job offer whatever contained those words.

Sorry to be devils advocate, but I lost my job twice and when I went to do anything about it found there was fúck all I could because the T's and C's of the contract/offer totally suckered me.

DMC

You say she's 30 years in the job, which may indicate that she has no contract, she's a permanent employee. There are more safeguards in place for that than any contract employee.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/employment_rights/victimisation_at_work.html and http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/employment_rights/ might be of help.

Is there any union there?

eth0_

Surely any company worth its salt would ghost PC's before giving them to employee's? It's as much THEIR fault as it is hers...

leeroybrown

Whether they Ghosted it or not ...

She thought it logical to copy some helpful things off of the company network, to bring home, as she works from home on occasion.

A look at her T&C the company NDA, and IT Policies would be in order.

Unfortunately as 'Alice' made some effort to hide the fact that she had intentionally removed the information from the work-place she makes herself look guilty of something.

'Constructive Dismissal' (I love the term ) as suggested above is a very extreme HR resolution tactic and I would say that it is totally unsited to her. Firstly, constructive dismissal is used by employees in a situation where their working conditions have become untenable (The classic examples of PA's whose bosses have been replaced leaving them with a desk and shrinking supply of stationary in a broom closet spring to mind). Secondly, constructive dismissal is one of the hardest form of HR issues to enforce.

'Alice' on the other hand is already in a situation where the company have taken steps against her and as such constructive dismissal is unsuited. I would recomend that she talks to some one who has a knowleged of HR Law and sees exactly where she stands from a dismissal/suspension standpoint.

Unfortunately, all too often the employees T&C's will favour the employer especially if any indescression has taken place.

As I see it the main thing going against her is the fact that she attempted to cover up what was an otherwise innocent mistake.

She can probably claim that she has been under extreme stress with the change of product lines and the high targets for a product with less fo a sales base and this made her very defensive when questioned but again some good *legally sound* advice from an experienced HR expert would be worth it's weight in gold.

WhiteWashMan

to be honest, whether she is in sales, and what she sells is of no consequence.

the fact is that she took files that she wasnt allowed to take.
a simple request would have made her life very much easier.

she has to make them understand that the simple fact was she didnt think she had to ask. a simple mistake.

Saruman

Also not lying about it in the first place would have looked a little better dont you think? If she had been truthful from the beginning then she probably would have been fine. As it is they may see it that she was disgruntled about loosing her product Y so either setting up her own business using her contacts from this company or going to another company with this info and go very high very fast. Thats probably how they see it, especially since she tried to cover it up by acting stupid!!

Asok

Hang on the pc was still in the workplace when the engineers came in so technically the information never left the workplace or have i missed something

Delphi91

Originally posted by NoWork
...She intends to follow something like this up with unfair dismissals as she feels she was forced into this situation by the above mentioned job transfer, and other contributing factors...

Have to say, I think you're on a loser there. Did anyone put a gun to her head and "force" her to copy data? I wouldn't use that argument if there was further discussions.

Someone else mentioned that because she was with the company for 30 years, she would be permanent. Not necessarily. I'm aware of someone who is working for almost 25 years in the same place and is still not permanent!

If there is a contract which she signed, she might want to check whether she agreed to a non-disclosure agreement or not. If she did, then it could be awkward.

Mike

Kell

Originally posted by Danny
Hang on the pc was still in the workplace when the engineers came in so technically the information never left the workplace or have i missed something

I think that is a very good technicality. If the PC hadnt left work then she can only be suspected of stealing intellectual property. There was no theft if the information never left the premises. In this light the company have made a very big error in suspending her.

Victor

Given the circumstances you outline, she really needs to speak to a union rep or a solicitor or she will be screwed big time.

Originally posted by NoWork
Up till about 4 weeks ago she sold all of the companies products, but mainly dealt in product Y. Then one day she's told that she's not allowed to sell product Y anymore, and this new 20something is hired to sell only product Y pretty much making Alices job reduntant. Alice is then told that she may only sell product X.

This looks like constructive dismissal (age discrimination?) and/or bad management.

Originally posted by NoWork
This month her sales were way below her usuaul targets.

This can't be held againt her. Natural justice, to which she is entitled, would compare last month's sales of her current product range to the previous month's sales of those products.

Originally posted by NoWork
She thought it logical to copy some helpful things off of the company network, to bring home, as she works from home on occasion. ..... Her instant reaction was to claim it was an accident. ..... At the second meeting she admitted she knew what the information was, but only wanted it for above stated reasons.

This is almost handing the company a reason to fire her. While the copying of the information could possibly be explained away, the "lying" can't.

Originally posted by NoWork
2. Alice gets made Redundant. What are her minimum reduntancy entitlements after working so long in this company?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85467 She is not "redundant" as there is still work in that department. Copying of data aside, if anything the 20something should go. However, given that she hasn't acted very well, is it in her interest to take redundancy if offered?

Originally posted by Delphi91
Someone else mentioned that because she was with the company for 30 years, she would be permanent. Not necessarily. I'm aware of someone who is working for almost 25 years in the same place and is still not permanent!

Anyone working for a company for more than a year (consecutively or sequentially) is considered permanent.

Originally posted by DMC
You say she's 30 years in the job, which may indicate that she has no contract, she's a permanent employee.

Every employee has a contract A work for B pay plus other terms. Employers are obliged to provide all employees with a written contract. Many are lax in this matter and this may be a possible defence if there is none.

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
a simple request would have made her life very much easier.

Indeed and I and anyone else would question her motives on this.

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
she has to make them understand that the simple fact was she didnt think she had to ask. a simple mistake.

Originally posted by Danny
Hang on the pc was still in the workplace when the engineers came in so technically the information never left the workplace or have i missed something

These two points might be the best way out. On the matter of the company giving people PCs, can she not claim "but aren't they for home work?" Otherwise they would be liable to pay tax (Benefit-in-Kind) on them.

Darth Henry

i know a guy that was sacked for stealing a box of matches from the company he worked for.

you steal anything - you've no come back.

Borzoi

From what you say it sounds like the company are out to get her. Firstly by taking away a major line, secondly by making a big deal out of a minor item (file copying).

It would seem that the working relationship has gotten so bad that she would be better off somewhere else.

So get a solicitor to professionally advise her, and see how much she get get out of the firm before she goes.

My 2c