Should Europe take on America?

Éomer of Rohan

The official socialist position w.r.t this question is that reactionary Europe opposes America because America is now the dominant Capitalist nation; in terms of historical dialectic, someting similar to the opposition of Feudalism to industrial capitalism as it arrived on the scene.
For once however, I beg to differ. I am an historian and personally I think that Europe and Asia, as the most culturally diverse places one Earth are the foremost opponents to the globalisation being imposed by the USA, both in economic terms but much more importantly in cultural terms. A real grievance that I have is sited in Nepal where a McDonalds opened a few years back, in Kathmandu, the capital. This region is an important religious region for Buddhists and the McDonalds serves only the western (and westernised?) tourists that visit Nepal thinking it is a quaint little place with interesting monasteries. The same applies to the Forbidden City in Beijing where the natives cannot actually afford to buy a 'Big Mac' or in Qu'om, one of the holiest sites of Islam (and Mecca for that matter).
Basically what I am saying is, should Europe, as the most civilised continent take on the increasing American 'liberalisation' drive when it begins to impinge on native culture? I salute the French and Italians for the stand they take with regard to their movie and theatre industries, not to mention arts etc and personally (I don't know whether the guy who doesn't like arts students is reading this lol - think it was Sand) but personally I prefer non-'Hollywood Blockbuster' movies since they tend to reduce important items to stereotypes and Americanised ideas. This of course ignores the other thing about inserting American characters into films that have no american dimension (Has anyone ever watched Amelie or read the famous novel 'Journey to the West' by Wu Che'eng en (written C16 and turned into a motion pic by America - which completely destroyed the point of the story) or read the English book, 'A Little Princess' turned into a motion picture where the girl was sent to America in 1914 supposedly when US was conscripting (in 1914?? Yeah that really happened!!!!!) - the list is endless - even 'Saving Private Ryan and U-571 are really woeful for this).
Does anyone even remotely know what I am talking about? It makes me despair when all I ever see is 'american views' in press and no one actually fighting back for the most educated and advanced cultures on Earth.

Victor

Yes it should. France and Germany are to the fore of this politically. However Europe must not become what the USA is at the moment, it should not become an agressive rival like the USSR did. However, Europe needs to be assertive (I'm important, but so are you) in saying there is another way of doing things in the world.

Does anyone even remotely know what I am talking about? It makes me despair when all I ever see is 'american views' in press and no one actually fighting back for the most educated and advanced cultures on Earth.

well Éomer,I accept your position on this topic, but, you trouble me straight away when you suggest the above.
Like it or not, the U.S has been driving the scope and direction of western society for sixty years or more now.
The majority of people generally like and accept most of this as their way of life.
But thats not to say , people in the west don't own their own minds. The current hot war topic being the ultimate example.
People in Europe on the whole oppose it and know that the U.S is driving it, in their perception as the only way to protect them selves from future proliferation of WMD's via Sadam's Regime.

Europeans though aren't going to drop Western values/Globalisation/Capitalism just because they disagree with the U.S on any particular topic.
mm

pickarooney

What do you mean when you refer to the stand France and Italy take with regard to their movie industries? The way all their top stars run off to Hollywood to make megabuck blockbusters as soon as they're noticed, or the way they shamelessly dub every one of the American blockbusters which count for 80-90% of cinema ticket sales?

What American characters were there in Amelie?
Surely an "educated and advanced" culture should be more than capable of standing up for itself and making its voice heard? Especially nowadays, anyone with a computer and a modem can broadcast his opinions to the world if he so wishes.

For the rest, I agree it's quite nauseating how McDonalds and its ilk appear like a plastified rash in the most incongruous places, but they're there because the customers want them there.

Éomer of Rohan

Like it or not, the U.S has been driving the scope and direction of western society for sixty years or more now.

What I am saying is that America may have been driving some of Western European society but now it is challenging (and threatening with extinction) many aspects of our culture and eastern culture which in my opinion is not to be tolerated; I do not like the 'regimes' in France or Germany, both Schroeder and Chirac being corrupt but I do applaud their stance on this matter. Also this ties in with something Gearoid brought up; the Irish language; a famous philosopher said 'follow the major languages of the world and behind them you will find an army' and so I ask, not specifically related to Irish but when it is estimated that an indigenous language disappears every two weeks, is it not time to say stop! not just to the cultural poison but to the army behind it also?

Éomer of Rohan

What do you mean when you refer to the stand France and Italy take with regard to their movie industries?

The governments subsidise the arts industries in order that native culture is preserved against the incoming 'virus' as prominent journalist Merryl Wyn Davies describes it.

Surely an "educated and advanced" culture should be more than capable of standing up for itself and making its voice heard?

Are you denying that Europe is educated and advanced? I actually had to sit and read the other day about how Americans were saying Europe is finished because our population is receding gradually; which they fail to understand is a natural tendency that occurs in cycles. The point is that with regard to America, all the flow of imformation is one way; look at England and America; the Rupert Murdoch Group expounds solely pro American ideas and culture yet no major news corporation in the US is owned by Europeans. Look at American tv shows such as Melrose Place and Baywatch; they are exported to Europe but the standard American practise with regard to shows they like from Europe (eg Who Wants to be a Millionaire? or The Weakest LInk) are bought and turned into US derivations thus our voice is drowning in their wealth - which is a bad thing. There is no European equivalent of Fox News precisely BECAUSE we are better educated and more advanced both intellectually and culturally. I am not a Social Darwinist however and I attribute this to their system rather than racial aspects.

mike65

I'm get as pised off as the next man about the McDonalds-isation of the world but "take on the Americans"?

Purleeeze!

The only way to counter act the US' influence is the offer something as a viable alternative. Europe largely has'nt as its a cobbled together notion of a (very) embronic State. Its punches nowhere near its collective weight. Certainly not in terms of post-war popular culture which has always been "anglo-american" with the american bit ever more dominant.

As for armies, Éomer. You'd better go for a nice lie down in the dark...

Mike.

Éomer of Rohan

As for armies, Éomer. You'd better go for a nice lie down in the dark...

Don't patronise me. I mean throw these Armies out of our countries; whether the UK, Germany, BeNeLux or France etc.

Europe largely has'nt as its a cobbled together notion of a (very) embronic State

Congratulations. Would you like to try in good english?

Certainly not in terms of post-war popular culture which has always been "anglo-american" with the american bit ever more dominant.

That was almost precisely my point; we need to counterbalance that influence and your perception that we need a European Superstate with which to do this is wrong; we need to simply start using our imaginations rather than letting ourselves be lulled into Brain death by popular culture.

mike65

Éomer of Rohan, sorry for taking you
up wrong about armies I was wondering...

Mike.

pickarooney

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan

Are you denying that Europe is educated and advanced?

Compared to whom? And no, I didn't say anything of the sort, I suggested that an educated and advanced people should be well-equipped to stand up for itself and make itself heard.
I have to repeat myself there, because I can't find any simpler words to express what I've already said. If I were to deny that Europe is educated and advanced, I would use the words
"Europe is not educated and Europe is not advanced", though this in itself would be a meaningless sentence.

For what it's worth,( i.e. nothing) Murdoch is Australian, and first and last a businessman. He has his employees tell Americans what they want to hear and British people what they want to hear. Likewise, the European owners of European media companies have their employees tell Europeans what they want to hear.

What people want to hear, and I'm talking about the clueless morons who make up the majority of all societies, wherever they are, and whatever they do, is that they live in the bestest place of all, and their leaders are taking good care of them.

PH01

Here's a theory for you.

What the US fear most is the loss of empire. Some may say that this is an irrational fear because they're so rich and powerful. No nation or organisation comes close. Except for Europe or the EU.

Ten nations are about to join the EU and more are lining up to join. In ten years, all going well, the EU will be well on its way to becoming an economic super power to rival the US.

The US will see the pros and cons of this. It will be a bigger market for their goods and services - good. But they won't have the same economic muscle as they had before - very important thing to have when you're trying to negotiate trade agreements - bad.

But what the US fear most of all is if the EU becomes a political union. Imagine the EU with the same foreign policy? Imagine this policy going against them over Iraq? One thing is for sure, the US wouldn't be getting away with half the things like they are now.

Now that's power!

gandalf

Europe largely has'nt as its a cobbled together notion of a (very) embronic State

---

Congratulations. Would you like to try in good english?

Eomer your just back from a ban, if I ban you again its permanent !

Argue the point and not the person or their bad grammer or spelling !

I and I'm sure the majority here got the jest of that phrase so please just argue the point. If I see one more of these I'm banning you for good.

Gandalf.

bonkey

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
A real grievance that I have is sited in Nepal where a McDonalds opened a few years back, in Kathmandu, the capital. This region is an important religious region for Buddhists and the McDonalds serves only the western (and westernised?) tourists that visit Nepal thinking it is a quaint little place with interesting monasteries. The same applies to the Forbidden City in Beijing where the natives cannot actually afford to buy a 'Big Mac' or in Qu'om, one of the holiest sites of Islam (and Mecca for that matter).

One would ask how McDonalds managed to put up such travesties in opposition to the wishes of the locals, if it is of so little benefit to them.

The conclusion is that, ultimately, someone in some level of a political position granted permission for these McDs to spring up in these places.

The travesty here is that the non-US part of the world seems to be falling over itself to become more American in its lifestyle - at least in certain repsects. This is hardly entirely the fault of the US.

At the end of the day, if the religious rulers of a holy city like Qu'om are happy to permit the defilation of the holiness of their city with a hedonistic, capitalistic western icon like McDonalds, then who are we to blame McDonalds for setting up there?

I salute the French and Italians for the stand they take with regard to their movie and theatre industries,

You mean the way that they have successfully become the major financial force in backing Hollywood projects? That European company's are now effectively calling the shots in Hollywood, albeit quietly, because they themselves wish to keep the artificial distinction between Hollywood Blockbuster and European Arty?

but personally I prefer non-'Hollywood Blockbuster' movies since they tend to reduce important items to stereotypes and Americanised ideas.

Gosh - an American industry producing Americanised ideas - what a surprise. So what you're saying is that your prefer Francophile or Italo-Roman stereotypes and ideas? From a cultural perspective, neither of them is your native culture, so I'm wondering why one industry is morally reprehensive to you for promoting or proliferating its nation's viewpoints and ideals, while the others are morally laudable for doing exactly the same thing.

And - as I said - lets not forget that they are all backed by the same bankrolling companies at the end of the day - which as I have already pointed out are significantly and increasingly European in origin.

This of course ignores the other thing about inserting American characters into films that have no american dimension

You use Amelie as an example here - a movie written and produced by a Frenchman, backed mainly by a French company, made in Europe, starring (exclusively?) European actors.

Yet somehow the US is at fault because Jeunet chose to represent a typical aspect of France which is the fact that there tend to be a significant number of foreigners in France, and a significant number of those tend to be American as a cultural result of the last world war.

Indeed, the American in Paris meeting and falling in love with the French girl is as much a French cultural stereotype as it is an American one, and yet the inclusion of it in a French movie is somehow evidence that the US has too much influence?

I agree that you have a basic point, but I'm not sure that your arguments are well chosen to support it.

jc

bertiebowl

no one actually fighting back for the most educated and advanced cultures on Earth.

So are you saying that Europeans and Asians are superior to the Americans being more "advanced"???

Just try substituting the words Christians/Muslims or Whites/Blacks into the above sentence.......you'd get on well in the days of apartheid in South Africa.....

The Saint

I do agree with the notion of US film companies rewriting history for Americans such as U-571 which a lot of Americans take as fact. Also I think that the spread of American culture is not a good thing and it is true that because of the spread of this culture is killing other cultures, look at Japan, they are basicly a country of small, asian looking Americans and even the middle east is heading that way too. Even in Ireland I hear people (especially girls) talk like they are Californian beach babes saying "Helloooo" in that ****ing annoying way. The fact that we watch more American TV is also contributing to this and also dumbs down people because I hate to say it but US TV is stupid, pathetic and made for stupid people.

tribble

I beg to differ on a few subpoints that you make...

The same applies to the Forbidden City in Beijing where the natives cannot actually afford to buy a 'Big Mac'

Having spent some time in China incl. Beijing (capital), Xi'an(former capital), Chonquing (largest city), and the very strange Hong Kong I can say with some assurance that the Chinese can indeed afford a 'Big Mac'. Well, when i say Chinese I mean those who have embraced western capitalism and 'benifited' from it.
Incidentally a feed in McD's in Beijing (50yuan = €7) actually costs more than in Dublin(€5). You may, however, say that the majority cannot afford to.

Basically what I am saying is, should Europe, as the most civilised continent take on the increasing American 'liberalisation' drive when it begins to impinge on native culture?

My friend you have obviously never been to the east. Civilised europeans we are not

tribble

growler

there is much talk about stereotypes here, particularly reacting to an american stereotype , however the proliferation of McDs , KFC, The Gap etc. is because we live in an industrial society in the midst of a period of huge changes in the world, communications , travel and power generation have transformed the world very qucikly (relatively) from an agrarian world of farmer peasants to the first (near) global consumerist society.
That the US is the leader of this is to their credit, they are smart business people , Europe is not far behind , a factor of population , wealth and education. Eomer I think you worry too much , the world is a big place , those big M's are very noticeable but don't fundamentally change people, as you say things move in cycles, national identities may well reassert themselves in the future.

If not I am not entirely opposed to a true global culture evolving from the mish mash of dominant cultures around right now, consumerism is not a long term - feasible concept, unless we solve our energy problems very soon. But a global culture that embraced the american ideal is a better looking future imho than say one based on say chinese society or any religion.
A natural balance will always be achieved, i hope.

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by tribble
Having spent some time in China incl. Beijing (capital), Xi'an(former capital), Chonquing (largest city), and the very strange Hong Kong I can say with some assurance that the Chinese can indeed afford a 'Big Mac'. Well, when i say Chinese I mean those who have embraced western capitalism and 'benifited' from it.
Incidentally a feed in McD's in Beijing (50yuan = €7) actually costs more than in Dublin(€5). You may, however, say that the majority cannot afford to.

Well I too have been to China. And also the forbidden city. While MOST east-coast chinese can afford a McDs the forbidden city is a different story entirly. Tibetan's earn on average alot less than your average western embracing chinese.

The McD's in Tibet is actually a tool for the Chinese government to assert a sort of acceptability about occupying Tibet.

you know the saying: "Anywhere there is a McDonalds is a friend" ?

Éomer of Rohan

Having read the replies, I am forced to enter in to a lot of detail so please bear with this.

there is much talk about stereotypes here, particularly reacting to an american stereotype , however the proliferation of McDs , KFC, The Gap etc. is because we live in an industrial society in the midst of a period of huge changes in the world, communications , travel and power generation have transformed the world very qucikly (relatively) from an agrarian world of farmer peasants to the first (near) global consumerist society.
That the US is the leader of this is to their credit, they are smart business people

In terms of 'globalisation' of industry and commerce, the Americans (and other advanced Capitalist nations) play the system that their parent country defines with little regard for others. At present the WTO has an agreement in force on Trade Related Intellectual Property and its protection; which is fair enough since various countries used to pirate idea of one another, the shuttle being a good example. However this agreement does not lay down protection for the indigenous knowledge of a less 'advanced' native people. Check out patent no 5, 304, 718 in the US; two scientists from the University of Colorado were granted a patent on the traditional Bolivian Apelawa quinoa variety of plant, a plant used by the native Andean peoples; thus suddenly under the WTO arrangement, these people were under law forbidden to use something that generations of their people had used for centuries - all because US companies had discovered financial benefits to be had; this is a real threat of globalisation and there were between 1985 and 1995 over 37 other patents of this type granted. Do not be fooled by those who claim that globalisation is the answer to US power and influence or that the US justifiably occupy the pinnacle of capitalist influence and power.

Even in Ireland I hear people (especially girls) talk like they are Californian beach babes saying "Helloooo" in that ****ing annoying way. The fact that we watch more American TV is also contributing to this and also dumbs down people because I hate to say it but US TV is stupid, pathetic and made for stupid people.

I hear that.

So are you saying that Europeans and Asians are superior to the Americans being more "advanced"???

Yes I am indeed saying that European and Asian CULTURES are more advanced and indeed more benign than American culture; people consider 50's Britain to be conservative and stale and so on, that is took American culture to liven things, and to an extent I agree - all cultures can benefit to a certain extent from one another but that has gone past its sell by date; consider popular music, mostly imported from manufactured bands in the US or from copycat manufactured bands in the UK; some of the greatest periods in music history originated in Britain remember and now the flow is generally one way, unless a British performer can imitate the American style better than the Americans themselves. This idea stifles up and coming bands and their creativity because it is now large corporations (and this was in fact American in origin) in charge of the music industry, that choose culture and propagate it through mediums that people can't ignore; TV, Radio, Cinema etc, leaving Europe and the British Isles specifically starved of creativity unless directed into a predesignated area such as 'pop' music. And remember that is only one aspect.

You use Amelie as an example here - a movie written and produced by a Frenchman, backed mainly by a French company, made in Europe, starring (exclusively?) European actors.

Can anyone actually pick at my examples of cultural imperialism other than Amelie?? (Which I admit I had the wrong film).

Eomer your just back from a ban, if I ban you again its permanent !

Argue the point and not the person or their bad grammer or spelling !

I and I'm sure the majority here got the jest of that phrase so please just argue the point. If I see one more of these I'm banning you for good.

I didn't understand him and I consider that paramount since his argument was addressed to ME. Also, I consider this to be barracking - when he told me for exampleto go and lie in the dark, which is incredibly rude, you did not upbraid him! Moreover, Mike65 himself seems to have regarded it quite amicably. Furthermore, read lower where someone by inference calls me a racist; are you going to deal with them also? Can you PM me with regard to a complaints procedure if one exists? I have no problem with your ban; I apologise for my behaviour concerning that but this seems very unfair to me.

As a historian I am pleased to call myself a European, with a history so diverse and rich in culture as ours, whether French Art, Gaelic music, Italian culinary feats, Russian literature, English parliamentarian democracy, German welfare breakthroughs, Spanish and Portuguese discoveries and so on. I think that America's threat militarily is nothing compared to what the hamburger, the US idea of 'popular' entertainment, fundamentalist Christianity (which admittedly was homegrown and then emmigrated but ultimately lies at the US doorstep),
and the worst of all, 'liberalism and globalisation' the twin gods of the US industry abroad, pose to this continent, to the world. Thus do I say that Europe, divided of old, must stand united anew against America.

Sand

As a historian I am pleased to call myself a European, with a history so diverse

Thats the problem right there - Europe hasnt been able to forge a common position, and indeed many EU member and candidate countries rebelled against the Frances assumption of leadership with their letters of support for the US and the strong ties between the US and their countries.

Europe remains a concept more than anything else - its member states are so diverse as to make concensus impossible - hence the move to majority voting under the Nice Treaty. That isnt a strong platform for taking on the immense political and economic - milatary isnt even up for debate imo - muscle of the United States and its allies. This is even before we consider whether a return to a cold war era in international and trade relations is good for anybody.

Does anyone even remotely know what I am talking about? It makes me despair when all I ever see is 'american views' in press and no one actually fighting back for the most educated and advanced cultures on Earth.

The claim may certainly be made that Europe is the most educated and advanced culture on earth, but It reminds me of the jingoism Americans are often derided for. One could also ask how educated and advanced a culture when it has been quite recently in the scheme of things been overrun by Communism, Fascism, Nazism, and even more recently Ultra Nationalism (Id call it neo-nazism but theyve got their own movement ) and a fairly recent throwback to anti-semitism "incidents" - and has survived in its liberal forms due mostly to the sacrifice and guidance of its much maligned "rival".

Éomer of Rohan

Thats the problem right there - Europe hasnt been able to forge a common position, and indeed many EU member and candidate countries rebelled against the Frances assumption of leadership with their letters of support for the US and the strong ties between the US and their countries.

I regard that as a reaction to arrogance on the part of the French and generally inept political leadership rather than a specific sympathy w.r.t. the US - countries fail to see a united Europe and therefore throw their lot in with the US for themselves rather than from a ideological perspective.

The claim may certainly be made that Europe is the most educated and advanced culture on earth, but It reminds me of the jingoism Americans are often derided for. One could also ask how educated and advanced a culture when it has been quite recently in the scheme of things been overrun by Communism, Fascism, Nazism, and even more recently Ultra Nationalism (Id call it neo-nazism but theyve got their own movement ) and a fairly recent throwback to anti-semitism "incidents" - and has survived in its liberal forms due mostly to the sacrifice and guidance of its much maligned "rival".

Conceded that Europe is experiencing some political upheavals which are not necessarily for the best but let us not forget that America is practically the home of Neo-Nazism and Ultra Conservatism. Consider the links between the BNP and certain political groupings in the southern US. However I do (surprised lol?) object to the point with regard to Communism - I don't think at any point Europe was overrun by communists - it may have been a good thing? They WERE however overrun by the USSR which as I have proved before is different. Even mildly progressive regimes have had benefits however; look at the stability that Yugoslavia enjoyed under the rule of Marshal Tito and his would-be communist government which supported a comprehensive welfare state (although was ultimately as corrupt as all the other 'communist' Stalinist states. The contrast this with the collapse of the regime and subsequent civil war - making perfectly clear that Milosevic et al were not the successors to Tito - they merely covered themselves in his shadow to disguise their REAL objectives.

The claim may certainly be made that Europe is the most educated and advanced culture on earth, but It reminds me of the jingoism Americans are often derided for. One could also ask how educated and advanced a culture when it has been quite recently in the scheme of things been overrun by Communism, Fascism, Nazism, and even more recently Ultra Nationalism (Id call it neo-nazism but theyve got their own movement ) and a fairly recent throwback to anti-semitism "incidents" - and has survived in its liberal forms due mostly to the sacrifice and guidance of its much maligned "rival".

Other point to consider is that America has been hit by these extremes also. They had their witch hunts for communists in the past in which nobody was safe. Also at present the US has the largest concentration of extremist groups in the world; Nazi's, white supremists etc. All with a supplier to weapons.

Nobody can say that America is any Paradise in this area.

TomF

As this topic seemed to veer-off into movies as yet another illustration of American awfulness, and as I had just read another column by Johah Goldberg, I thought it might be good to post two paragraphs from his column here.

"Now, I don't think just boiling everything down to a movie script is a great way to think about foreign policy. But I do think it can be an instructive exercise, because, in the most grossly generalized terms, movies tend to reflect the character of the cultures that produce them. Europeans can leave a theater intellectually or aesthetically satisfied by a film that treats evil like inconvenient rain — a problem to be avoided or dealt with but, ultimately, beyond your power to do anything about. Americans prefer to see cinematic evil as a problem to be solved. Maybe we can't stop it everywhere or for all time, but we don't turn our backs to it either. We're not fools, we're just not fatalistic.

"Of course, foreign policy isn't a Hollywood pitch meeting. But I ask you: Look at Saddam Hussein and Iraq. Look at the torture, the brutality, and the invasions of his neighbors. Look at the government-trained rapists and the women they plied their trade against. Look at the gassed Kurds, the tongueless men mutilated for suggesting that Saddam wasn't Saladin. Sure, look at the big picture. Look at America helping Saddam and looking the other way. But also look at how America learned from its mistakes, even as the Europeans continued to look on Saddam's Republic of Fear as an opportunity to make a few bucks. Take in all the facts and imagine how you would turn it into a movie. And ask yourself: Who would be the good guys? Who would be the bad guys? And, how would you like it to end?
http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg.asp

We're not fools, we're just not fatalistic

Am i reading this right? So apparently we are fools and Fatalistic?

But also look at how America learned from its mistakes, even as the Europeans continued to look on Saddam's Republic of Fear as an opportunity to make a few bucks. Take in all the facts and imagine how you would turn it into a movie. And ask yourself: Who would be the good guys? Who would be the bad guys? And, how would you like it to end?

Who is this guy? I have very little interest in movies, so i'm totally in the dark.

But i think he needs to take another look at his "facts". Also he might want to rethink the whole thing about America learning from its mistakes.

Good Guys: The Weakling Iraq, forced to defend its territory from the Evil American Empire.
Bad Guys: The Evil Alliance. Watch out for Darth Bush's special power.
Result: There will be 42 movies in succession. Once they're finished, they'll decide that they need to invade again, which will create more.

How would i like it to end? Ireland discovers an army of robots, which we can use to boost our army, and we invade the US. Woohoo! Ireland is now the superpower of the world.


End result. Lots of money made in Regalia for the movie. Minitures, computer games etc.

gandalf

Well as far as I can see that article is by a Conservative wackjob whose article is on a webpage whose site of the day is http://www.studentsforwar.org/ which makes it really impartial and balanced :rolleyes:

But I do recognise that they have opinions as well, I just do not agree with them.

Gandalf.

TomF

"a Conservative wackjob"?

Tsk, tsk. Let's remember manners and respond to the points and not confuse name-calling and labelling as debate even if they do tend to be left-wing tendencies. (I think I've read everything but "running dog of capitalists" on this board.)

mike65

Originally posted by klaz


Good Guys: The Weakling Iraq, forced to defend its territory from the Evil American Empire.
Bad Guys: The Evil Alliance. Watch out for Darth Bush's special power.

Ho hum.....:rolleyes:

And this especially for TomF

"running dog of capitalists"

Every anti-Amercian cliche now present and correct!

Mike.

TomF

Well that's a great relief. It's like the tenant upstairs finally dropping the other shoe.

Gearoid

I agree that america has far too much influence culturally,economically and politically. look at our Television for example, now I only have the 4 Irish channels and bbc etc.
Take Tv3 its a so caled Irish channel but most of the stuf,Judge Judy, Gerry springer, (pure ****e I mite add) is Imported american material, i know numerous ppl who tho native Irish ppl because of the likes of that crap have american accents. A certain amount of contribution from other cultures i believe is ok, but the current trend of america and also possibly england setting the cultural direction and development of things is totally unacceptable. as for political and Economic influence i feel that Eomer has covered them.

Éomer of Rohan

i know numerous ppl who tho native Irish ppl because of the likes of that crap have american accents

I must admit that I agree with Gearoid that the number of people succumbing to the 'yeah whatever' (aka 'Clueless') Syndrome is unbelievable and one of the most irritating things in this whole debate; I know a group of girls in particular who try and imitate American accents when talking and american culture in their dress, their colloquialisms and their attitude towards certain things and it is quite frankly the most disgusting result of the cultural imperialism emanating from the US - something that did happen from almost every other powerful state (If anyone has ever watched TV or listened to Radio broadcasts by people such as Captain Terence O'Neill and his godawful English accent, though he was Northern Irish) but is no less disgusting for having done so.

Sand

I regard that as a reaction to arrogance on the part of the French and generally inept political leadership rather than a specific sympathy w.r.t. the US - countries fail to see a united Europ

Id agree, but this doesnt seem too hopeful that Europe is going to be able to forge any sort of common position on just about anything. If Europe is going to take on America, youre first going to have to convince those Europeans - me included - and our representitives why entering into cold war relations with one of our greatest allies is such a good idea? I can understand why the French want to recapture their old imperial glory and its never been any harm for their leaders to be compared to De Gaulle, but I dont see how it helps us.

Conceded that Europe is experiencing some political upheavals which are not necessarily for the best but let us not forget that America is practically the home of Neo-Nazism and Ultra Conservatism.

All the idealogies I noted have controlled entire nations or pacts of nations in Europe, with terrifying results, not only for Europe but also for the world. Not on the same scale or having the same influences as Billy Bob Joe and his Cousin Zeke dressing up in bedsheets at night. As for neo-nazis theyre rife throughout Europe, Germany is obviously noted for it, Britain also had a few incidents in the north not so long ago - but most amusingly theyve taken hold in Russia as well where some Irish fans were assaulted in the game played there - amusing because nazis didnt have too high an opinion of slavs in their racial heirarchy. None of this seems to point too much to clearcut superiour culture.

Am i reading this right? So apparently we are fools and Fatalistic?

Think he means Americans arent fools, they just dont believe evil regimes cant be defeated and better ones put in their place. Their history ( at least the sanitised version anyway ) and sheer power probably reassures them on this. Id assume by default hed mean Europeans are fatalistic. Their history (again a sanitised version ) and , uhm, power reassures them on this.

Take Tv3 its a so caled Irish channel but most of the stuf,Judge Judy, Gerry springer, (pure ****e I mite add) is Imported american material, i know numerous ppl who tho native Irish ppl because of the likes of that crap have american accents.

TV3 is a commercial entity. It finds out what people want, it sticks it on, people watch it and TV3 get money of the advertisers. Theyre not agents of some American imperialism project, theyre just giving people what they want. If there was some rule of 40% American programming minimum then Id get worried about cultural engineering and big brother type stuff ---- oh wait!