Should Europe take on America?

seamus

Just on the point of American ideals 'taking over'. America is the technological and financial superpower of the world.
It has a citizenship close to (?) half a billion (OK, over a quarter billion, certainly way more than any other english-speaking country), who we all share a great deal in common with, i.e language and (base) morals. It's in the sheer numbers that we are swamped. The Americans produce more English language television programming than all of Europe put together (probably). Ireland and Britain are two small islands, and the population of each country are mostly similar. The US, however is a gigantic landmass imalgamation of 50 states, each with their own population, TV stations, local programming. It's in the sheer volume of everything that America produces that it seems as though they're taking over. But I don't think so. I think we just use their stuff cos it's convenient (ie they speak English too)

As for Europe 'taking on' the US. Well, maybe, but not in the cold war sense. If the US go to war without the UN, I wouldn't like to see a mass revolt against the US, leading to war, but at the same time, I wouldn't want to see the UN bending over and saying "Please sir, can I have another?". I would like to see the US brought to book, made give money/aid to countries, or lift sanctions on poor countries. It would be a bit hypocritical that the Americans are demanding Iraq complies with UN rules, but then if they went ahead and ignore the UN, while enforcing it's law.

TomF - Take that guy's stuff with a pinch of salt. In ref. to the movie bit - Did you ever hear that history is always written by the victors? Imagine how movies would look if the 3rd Reich defeated the Americans? It would be courageous Nazi soldiers bravely holding back hundreds of American/British troops while holed up in a small French villa with nothing more than a few loaves of bread and rifles.

Éomer of Rohan

Id agree, but this doesnt seem too hopeful that Europe is going to be able to forge any sort of common position on just about anything. If Europe is going to take on America, youre first going to have to convince those Europeans - me included - and our representitives why entering into cold war relations with one of our greatest allies is such a good idea?

I never suggested a cold war style situation; my original post railed against America cultural overtones in society and why it is seriously necessary that we should combat that influence since our own is so much older and more precious compared to the filth that America spews out.

It has a citizenship close to (?) half a billion

America has a population of 280 million approximately. Certainly not half a billion.

It would be a bit hypocritical that the Americans are demanding Iraq complies with UN rules, but then if they went ahead and ignore the UN, while enforcing it's law.

Anyone remember the 14 to 1 SC votes on the security council or the human rights resolutions passed in a committe which has no veto and which damned Israel but the US refused to heed?

yankinlk

I think I had this argument over a few beers with a friend this weekend. If America disappeared off the face of the earth tomorrow what would happen to the world? My argument: the same thing would still drive the future of the world = money...it would just be a different group of people in the drivers seat.

Be thankful many of you live in Europe and not America. You all get to enjoy the culture America created, then pick it apart and take the good bits out of it - use what you want for yourselves and make it better - and finally call it your own.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Éomer of Rohan

Be thankful many of you live in Europe and not America. You all get to enjoy the culture America created, then pick it apart and take the good bits out of it - use what you want for yourselves and make it better - and finally call it your own.

Europe and her cultures were extant long before America was anything other than a group of natives with their own culture. Europe ruled the world while America was a pathetic little nation all on its own. We have our own culture thank you very much - what we are now trying to discuss is how best to protect it from the virus-like American culture.

seamus

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Europe and her cultures were extant long before America was anything other than a group of natives with their own culture. Europe ruled the world while America was a pathetic little nation all on its own. We have our own culture thank you very much - what we are now trying to discuss is how best to protect it from the virus-like American culture.

Virii actively take over cells, use them to create copies of the virus, until they're dead. American culture is certainly not virus-like.

As yankinlk was trying to say, we pick out the bits from American culture that we like, and adopt them into our own. McDonalds is one perfect example. However, we don't have to deal with the bad bits. American culture doesn't force us to take the bad bits. Rather, we take the bits that we like, or we may consider to be good for us, and throw away the rest. I wouldn't consider it an infection of our culture, but an evolution - creating mutations, and keeping the good ones, while discarding the bad ones.

Éomer of Rohan

Virii actively take over cells, use them to create copies of the virus, until they're dead. American culture is certainly not virus-like.

Consider another example of McDonalds - in China for example, the McDonalds offers 'mc roast duck' - is this not a virus like imitation of native culture? Almost like the use of cellular antigens to protect the infected cell from the immune system?

popinfresh

Cultures change anyway. Ireland in 1500 was nothing like Ireland in 1200 as it is nothing like Ireland today. I do however disagree that one country should be shaping the cultures of the world. It really disgusts me when you see Italian people speaking English in perfect American accents. But tbh it will never totaly take over, as mentioned above we take the best of the cultures. Eg: 50 years ago ppl in Ireland were devout catholics and you couldn't get any action until you were married. It is quite clear that influence from USA and UK changed this..

Éomer of Rohan

Actually I think that this change, mostly in the 1960's reulted as the world, not just the US and UK though they are included, emerged from post-war austerity and coincided with the invention of the pill and the tightening of other forms of birth control plus the increased availability of over the counter and NHS prescribed contraceptives.

SloanerF1

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
The official socialist position w.r.t this question is that reactionary Europe opposes America because America is now the dominant Capitalist nation; in terms of historical dialectic, someting similar to the opposition of Feudalism to industrial capitalism as it arrived on the scene.

Have we not moved on from the days of capitalists opposing communists countries simply because they are communist and vice versa?

Victor

Originally posted by seamus
It has a citizenship close to (?) half a billion (OK, over a quarter billion, certainly way more than any other english-speaking country),

Bah! just spent the last half hour geting the numbers and you edit it.

Country	Population	Area (sqkm)
United States  	 280,562,489 	 9,158,960 
   		
Austria 	 8,169,929 	 82,738 
Belgium 	 10,274,595 	 30,230 
Denmark 	 5,368,854 	 42,394 
Finland 	 5,183,545 	 305,470 
France.. 	 59,765,983 	 545,630 
Germany 	 83,251,851 	 349,223 
Greece.. 	 10,645,343 	 130,800 
Ireland 	 3,883,159 	 68,890 
Italy.. 	 57,715,625 	 294,020 
Luxembourg 	 448,569 	 2,586 
Netherlands 	 16,067,754 	 33,883 
Portugal 	 10,084,245 	 91,951 
Spain... 	 40,077,100 	 499,542 
Sweden.. 	 8,876,744 	 410,934 
UK .....	 59,778,002 	 241,590 
EU15 ....	 379,591,298 	 3,129,881 
Excluding micro-states, oversea territorites and départments and associate members. 		
		
Czech Republic	 10,256,760 	 77,276 
Cyprus...	 767,314 	 9,250 
Estonia..	 1,415,681 	 43,211 
Hungary..	 10,075,034 	 92,340 
Latvia..	 2,366,515 	 63,589 
Lithuania	 3,601,138 	 65,200 
Malta....	 397,499 	 316 
Poland..	 38,625,478 	 304,465 
Slovakia..	 5,422,366 	 48,800 
Slovenia..	 1,932,917 	 20,151 
EU25 ...	 454,452,000 	 3,854,479 
		
Turkey..	 67,308,928 	 770,760 
Romania 	 22,317,730 	 230,340 
Bulgaria 	 7,621,337 	 110,550 
EU28 .....	 551,699,995 	 4,966,129

Originally posted by seamus
who we all share a great deal in common .... (base) morals.

Do we. The attitude of many Americans is more, more more and me, me, me. As a society it is more agressive than assertive. I'm not saying it is exclusive but there is a much stronger tendancy towards it in the USA.

Éomer of Rohan

Have we not moved on from the days of capitalists opposing communists countries simply because they are communist and vice versa?

I don't know about you but I was referring to the growing disparity between reactionary capitalist Europe and revanchist reactionary but more powerful capitalist America LOL

seamus

Originally posted by Victor
Bah! just spent the last half hour geting the numbers and you edit it.

Lol, we really need to get you laid My point though is that the US is English-speaking. As you travel onto mainland Europe, American culture has much less of an impact, because it's mostly in English. That said, it's still remarkable how much American TV gets shown in European countries, especially when you consider how much European TV is(n't) shown here

Do we. The attitude of many Americans is more, more more and me, me, me. As a society it is more agressive than assertive. I'm not saying it is exclusive but there is a much stronger tendancy towards it in the USA. [/B]

I wouldn't consider us very alike, morally, but we'd be much closer to the US than say, Iraq or China. We still have the basic 'don't hurt anyone else, and you'll be grand' type of morals in common with the US (in general) IMO.

yankinlk

Originally posted by seamus
Virii actively take over cells, use them to create copies of the virus, until they're dead. American culture is certainly not virus-like.

As yankinlk was trying to say, we pick out the bits from American culture that we like, and adopt them into our own. McDonalds is one perfect example. However, we don't have to deal with the bad bits. American culture doesn't force us to take the bad bits. Rather, we take the bits that we like, or we may consider to be good for us, and throw away the rest. I wouldn't consider it an infection of our culture, but an evolution - creating mutations, and keeping the good ones, while discarding the bad ones.

well put seamus. you werent meant to take it as an insult rohan...its actually the reason I love life here - and will continue to do so. I invision Ireland/UK/Europe as the "Beverly Hills" of the World minus all the snobby attitudes in the not-too-distant future.

Éomer of Rohan

Did you read my reply to that statement he made about Virii?

SloanerF1

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
We have our own culture thank you very much - what we are now trying to discuss is how best to protect it from the virus-like American culture.

The best way to "protect" our society from American culture is to make our own cultures seem attractive to our citizens, which we have clearly failed to do.

Éomer of Rohan

The best way to "protect" our society from American culture is to make our own cultures seem attractive to our citizens, which we have clearly failed to do.

Conceded but it is important to realise that the seductive nature of a culture seems to be closely tied in with the virilty, the power and profit (much to my disgust) that the society behind said culture exudes; Europe is civilised but it is an almost archaic form of civilisation and to cheapen it by conforming to the standard of what is 'interesting' which is defined by American advertising and the like would be a sad thing indeed.

SloanerF1

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Conceded but it is important to realise that the seductive nature of a culture seems to be closely tied in with the virilty, the power and profit (much to my disgust) that the society behind said culture exudes; Europe is civilised but it is an almost archaic form of civilisation and to cheapen it by conforming to the standard of what is 'interesting' which is defined by American advertising and the like would be a sad thing indeed.

You make it sound like "American advertising" is some sort of government conspiracy. We are not talking about Stalin's Russia, Mao's China or Hitler's Germany here. The government would obviously want American companies to do well abroad, but how they acheive that success is up to them. Clearly, successful marketing strategies will be copied, and "American advertising", and therefore American culture, which we have established is attractive to Europeans, starts to look homogenous. This is not a centralised conspiracy to brainwash us and erode the culture of our individual nations.

Éomer of Rohan

successful marketing strategies will be copied, and "American advertising", and therefore American culture, which we have established is attractive to Europeans, starts to look homogenous. This is not a centralised conspiracy to brainwash us and erode the culture of our individual nations.

Spoken like a true capitalist, considering no system bar the one you are presently wedded to. Just because it is not deliberate does not mean that it does not happen nor does it mean that it cannot be stopped at the source.

SloanerF1

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Spoken like a true capitalist, considering no system bar the one you are presently wedded to. Just because it is not deliberate does not mean that it does not happen nor does it mean that it cannot be stopped at the source.

...nor does it mean that it is not our responsibility to maintain our culture from "our end"

Éomer of Rohan

...nor does it mean that it is not our responsibility to maintain our culture from "our end"

If not ours, then whose responsibility? The American corporations who ruin such culture? I agree - but they never will. On us lies the sole responsibility to up hold our own values and principles; if we did not do that then for example Fascism may have conquered the UK long ago and Socialism would have faded from existence following the supposed 'fall of communism.' This applies to every single individual rather than to societies as a whole; each individual must be in a position to make the choice as to whether or not they are willing to be a part of a parasitic culture such as that of the US - and our education system does not provide the scope for such though IMO.

dumb larry

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
... try and imitate American accents when talking and american culture in their dress, their colloquialisms and their attitude towards certain things and it is quite frankly the most disgusting result of the cultural imperialism emanating from the US

What exactly is wrong with appropriating the colloquialisms of another culture? Or dress even? Why would you consider that 'disgusting'? When my youngest sister is excitedly telling a story, her voice goes up slightly at the end of each sentence. I know she's acquired this funny accent from watching American shows on TV. Her friends do it aswell - but what harm is it? Most of the shows she watches are far more sophisticated than the ones I used to watch when I was her age. Sabrina is one example, rugrats another, the Simpsons and Futurama too... they certainly beat Forty Coats.

I can understand how fast-food is an issue to worry about since it affects a person's health but in all fairness, who gives a crap about how people dress? Would you rather everyone wore Aran sweaters instead of hoodies?

Peace out bro.

Éomer of Rohan

What exactly is wrong with appropriating the colloquialisms of another culture? Or dress even? Why would you consider that 'disgusting'? When my youngest sister is excitedly telling a story, her voice goes up slightly at the end of each sentence

Why you ask. Let me think about how to put this in words.

I am not a nationalist in either traditional or Northern Irish conotations of the word but I am fiercely proud to be Northern Irish. I consider myself highly intelligent - Sloaner F1 will confirm that LOL. I also pride myself on being an extremely independent person - I choose my tastes in fashion, music, TV, ideology and so forth. Thus it offends me that people act like sheep to be led for they are in effect lambs to the slaughter - I do not and probably never will tolerate anyone who cannot think for themselves but is lured by populist advertising and populist culture which for me is irrevocably tied to the decline in highly intelligent programs on TV, truly political music and fashions that are independent of the mainstream and before I am hit with a barrage of how this is innaccurate, please consider, those of you from Northern Ireland the two great culture groups - the spide / popular look and the gothic or thereabouts / underclass look; the latter of these grew in relation to people trying to strike out on their own path yet within a few years a new mainstream had turned up - cheapening what it means to be an individual, to think for ones self, tying each and every one of us to the system, to corporations who have no interest in the preservation of what little history this nation has to itself, what ability a steadily 'dimmer' society has to think outside the confines of 'me me me' to look at the world and realise that there is so much wrong with it rather than to be conned by the gilt edged cage in which a stagnating and decadent Western society has encased itself.

Gearoid

I have to say that is one view i can agree with entirely, well said Éomer.
quote:
[I know she's acquired this funny accent from watching American shows on TV. Her friends do it aswell - but what harm is it? Most of the shows she watches are far more sophisticated than the ones I used to watch when I was her age. Sabrina is one example, rugrats another, the Simpsons and Futurama too... /]

Fair enough, they maybe in your opinion more sophisticated than forty coats or anything u watched but the point is that these programmes were firstly created for an American audience and therefore are imports of a foreign culture that throught being broadcast everyday eventually become the norm, at this stage we take it for granted and accept it(the stories or morals of the programme) as our own. Now we have assumed a way of thought which b4 was alien to us and have taken up a foreign set of behaviours(me grammars crap, my apoligies) based on the said programmes. we use these as our standards of behaviour etc and they become part of our culture. Not all aspects of this are bad u might say and perhaps u may be right we won't know until years to come what the real consequences are.
The second objection I have to american programmes is, and this is my biggest complaint is that it causes us to speak like americans. U think this is no harm because as u say its only slight at the moment. what u fail to see is that this is something which will go on and on. I predict that if uncontrolled american television will have every1 sounding like yanks within 50 years.
Reflect on this,today we are celebrating our nationality and are all proud to be Irish. But will we really be Irish when we are all turned into American yobs with an accent that is not our own?

We have already almost lost our native tongue, let us not lose any more.