Would you consider yourself to be Anti-American?

Meh

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
I wish for the end of American influence in a world better off without it - nothing more.

Except that's not what you said. You want Osama to "eliminate America entirely" -- genocide.

Éomer of Rohan

I just noticed all those things from Von so since you are so 'Orwellian' tell me what did Orwell say when commenting on censorship and control in a 'democratic' society??

Further to your points;

Americans don't like them either. Only half the electorate votes and only half of them voted for the present government

And? I am simply referring to all the parts of America that I dislike and that only half vote is besides the point - thus the quarter (by your maths) that voted republican, I don't like.

(Regarding Fundamentalist Christianity) There's plenty of that here in case you haven't noticed

I am very aware of that but having experienced both, I like the US variety least.

the popular culture,

So long as you are prepared to give everyone equal share in the media, so be it but the point is that they don't - American 'popular' culture dominates and subdues the others thus there is less variety - I am not in favour of everyone liking the same thing or being coerced into watching the same thing because said thing is all that is on or indicative of all that is on.

advertising,[/]

Actually compare advertising from the UK / Ireland to the advertising in America over the past 50 years and you will understand to what I refer. Obviously you have never watched US TV or most of the freeview satellite channels.

the utterly biased media,

I disagree that the best investigative media comes from the US. Actually watch CNN, Fox and so on and compare them to the BBC - the BBC will win hands down every time.

the gun culture,

the racism

Please do not think I am exemplifying Irish culture. Consider guns and alcoholism as you did; do you really think that the murder of a man can compare to the death of a man by drinking or the accidents related thereto?? I don't. As to racism, there is indeed a lot of rascism in Ireland but at least it is not institutionalised.

the unthinking belief in the government

Until I cite those people as my personal heroes then do not presume to know that they are, or indeed that they are heroes of a political party about which you display little knowledge, something that you demonstrate here.

the ignorance of world affairs,

Entirely based on personal experience, not as much here as there is in the USA.

the obsession with 'being American' w.r.t. sports etc at school, wrestling and every other harebrained more-muscle-than-brains type activities.....this list goes on a bit more in similar vein.

Plenty of emphasis on manly sports here too. And on being 'Oirish'. Americans find euro football hooliganism impossible to understand.

I really ought to put you in touch with some American friends of mine who don't subscribe to the 'popular ideal' and were tortured all through their young lives because of it - which is even understandable were it to come from children only but it didn't - because they did not engage in sports activities they were disdvantaged in school and teachers regarded them less than other more popular students.

They make you a bigot

If this were the case, why would I spend a lot of my time involved in political activities trying to help people to learn to think for themselves - not to think in Socialist terms, but simply progressively - which can be right or left wing.

Éomer of Rohan

Except that's not what you said. You want Osama to "eliminate America entirely" -- genocide.

#

Wrong. Ask Sand for the quote or look it up. I said that maybe we should allow Osama and his crackpot adherents to eliminate america - they might be doing the world a favour - almost verbatim.

Meh

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Wrong. Ask Sand for the quote or look it up. I said that maybe we should allow Osama and his crackpot adherents to eliminate america - they might be doing the world a favour - almost verbatim.

Precisely. You want Osama to wipe out the entire American nation.

Imagine if I posted any of the following:
"Maybe we should allow Sharon to eliminate the Palestinians entirely -- he might be doing us a favour"
"Maybe we should allow Hamas eliminate the Jews entirely -- they might be doing us a favour."
"Maybe we should allow Johnny Adair eliminate the taigs entirely -- he might be doing us a favour."
"Maybe we should allow the Tutsis to eliminate the Hutus entirely -- they might be doing us a favour."
Any of these statements would (correctly) be seen as incitement to hatred and unacceptable in a civilized discussion.

And yet it's apparently ok for you to post the same about eliminating the Americans entirely.

Éomer of Rohan

If you posted any of those you would, at the most basic level, be wrong whereas fundamentally, I am right. It probably would have an impact for the betterment of society. Still, I do not advocate the elimination of every American alive, simply their power and this was how I entered a debate with Man - whether or not there was another way to eliminate the power of the most powerful.

Sand

If you posted any of those you would, at the most basic level, be wrong whereas fundamentally, I am right.

But youd say that anyway given its your position though, unless you go around saying things you belive are fundamentally wrong?:)

For example, the world might* actually be a better place if the loyalist/republicans up the in the north actually stopped their "skirmishes" and one or the other wiped the other out, or drove the other out or whatever - no more terrorism in Ireland, no more massive security prescence - huge cost savings for health and social spending eh? - and no more quite frankly stomach churning jumped up ex thugs playing politician. And who is truly going to miss the Adairs or Omagh bombers of this world?

And lets not even get started on the Israelis and Palestinians which will go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on......( no, really, lets not )

*DISCLAIMER - Exspressed to make a point, may not actually be the position of the point maker.

. It probably would have an impact for the betterment of society.

Nah - or at least its very debateable, betterment that is. The world would indeed be a very different place if China, Saudia Arabia or (god help us ) France were an equivalent hyperpower. I wouldnt argue it would be a better place though. We should be thankful that a democratic, tolerant, entreprenuerial society which tends to encourage free speech - Ive not read Stupid White Men, but Ive heard enough to know hed be in a dungeon right now if he was Chinese:|.

Von

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan Until I cite those people as my personal heroes then do not presume to know that they are, or indeed that they are heroes of a political party about which you display little knowledge, something that you demonstrate here.

I merely used those people as examples to illustrate that not all sections of american society have an unthinking belief in the government, as you claim. It’s irrelevant whether they’re ‘heroes’ of yours or not. I don’t give a toss who your ‘heroes’ are. And I forgot to mention Martin Luther King, the uppity nig nog. He made a big deal of being american. Are you anti-him as well? It’s very simple, many Americans are ignorant, but so are you, and most appallingly, your hackneyed stereotyping isn't even done with an eye to entertain. Real hate can at least be entertaining.

Perhaps it’s america’s ‘conventions’ that bother you so much. That’d be understandable – James Joyce said that his talent was to revolt against English conventions, literary and otherwise - but that’s certainly not what you’re saying at all. When a country is as vast, divided and diverse as America is, then it seems to me that it’s nothing less than idiotic to assume that its elites are anything like accurate reflections of the society as a whole. The best (and funniest) critics of american society have imo always been americans. I suggest you leave them to it.

DriftingRain

As an american, I didn't vote for Bush and I don't think his views are in regards to what is needed in the U.S. right now. I am all for americans, the home of the free, but not for the administration at hand at the present time. I am probally a friend that many irish, british, and Italian that post here on boards, and what I have that makes the view of americans strain form their original thoughts od americans. Éomer of Rohan you should not judge us as a whole as everyone in the world has their own thoughts and opinions it is just whether or not their leaders let them voice it.
Candi:p

Éomer of Rohan

And I forgot to mention Martin Luther King, the uppity nig nog.

I liked that one. What do YOU have against M.L.K.?

your hackneyed stereotyping

If my 'sayings lack impact' then why are you wasting your time to attack what I say?

Éomer of Rohan

When a country is as vast, divided and diverse as America is, then it seems to me that it’s nothing less than idiotic to assume that its elites are anything like accurate reflections of the society as a whole

This is irrelevent when the rest of the society (if in any way divergent from administration/elite) does nothing to stop something they disagree with and it forces me to agree with a famous Greek leader in that those men (idiotes is the greek) who do not use their rights under a democracy do not deserve to have them, nor to live in such a society.

Real hate can at least be entertaining.

It lends so much credibiltity to your argument when you think that hate should entertain. Besides, I do not hate them - I simply have problems with their society and its policies etc etc etc.

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
If you posted any of those you would, at the most basic level, be wrong whereas fundamentally, I am right. It probably would have an impact for the betterment of society. Still, I do not advocate the elimination of every American alive, simply their power and this was how I entered a debate with Man - whether or not there was another way to eliminate the power of the most powerful.

Thats fine and I'm glad you have stated that you do not agree with Al Queda's methods.
You seem to agree with their aim, though in so far as they want an end to America and it's nigh on impossible to dis-entangle the two.
Al Queda, I can safely predict will never achieve their aims.
mm

bonkey

Originally posted by Von
... but so are you, and most appallingly, ...[/B]

C'mon Von. You know the rules better than that.

Lets not get things outta hand here.

Thanks.

jc

Meh

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
If you posted any of those you would, at the most basic level, be wrong whereas fundamentally, I am right.

Circular logic. Your argument here is nothing more than "I'm right, therefore I'm right".

Éomer of Rohan

Circular logic. Your argument here is nothing more than "I'm right, therefore I'm right".

Not the case and if you wish me to go through each of those examples and state why, I will.

monument

Originally posted by Shinji
You know what? Yes, I'm anti-American. This isn't a blind irrational hatred, or a random childish decision that I don't like an entire nation across the sea from us. This is a considered, educated stance; I do not detest the people of America, but I do despise "America" and the "American way". I loathe their foreign and domestic policies, the way they treat the weak both on an international and an internal level. I loathe their contempt for education and their hypocritical stance on freedom of education. I abhor their wanton consumption of this planet's resources without thinking of the damage they are doing.

I hate their institutionalised racism, which persists even now and even in some of the most unlikely places. Their attitudes to gun control, juxtaposed with their incredibly hardline attitudes on harmless things like soft drugs and their increasing moves towards media censorship, disgust me.

I have met a great many American people who I have liked and whose company I have enjoyed. I don't wish death on the people of America. I bear them no ill will.

But I despise their society; and if the people are "Americans", then the society and the system they have created and in which they now live is "America", and I am certainly "anti-America". Six months ago I would have said I was anti-Bush, but a lot of thought and research on the matter simply shows that Bush is only one of the heads of this hydra, and he's not even a particularly important one.

Visit Los Angeles. See what this greedy, violent, consumer-driven, fearful, ignorant model of society has done to the sunny valleys and shorelines of southern California, and to the millions of people living in them. Read up on Panama, on Chile, on Iran. Then come and tell me that America's way is right, and they you're not "anti-America".

Shinji now, I can't wait for E3

I have meet a good few Americans in the last year in Ireland, the UK and other parts of Europe, I cant say I really disliked any of them two much and I liked most of them.

Let’s face it, the average American has no real control over what its government does, so I have to say I'm anti-America in every way Shinji has said above, I don’t think there’s any point in repeating him.

Also how dare a country full of crime attack any other country to "free" its people.

I'm planing to travel to LA for E3. I will be in fear of more them one of my freedoms lets just say I will be keeping my mouth shut.

Its sad to think Ireland is becoming more like America every day

Sand

If this thread does anything it disproves the legend that theres no such thing as anti-americanism, and that if you were to describe a stance as anti-american youd be called to account and be demanded to fully demonstrate how it was anti -american etc etc.

Éomer of Rohan

If this thread does anything it disproves the legend that theres no such thing as anti-americanism, and that if you were to describe a stance as anti-american youd be called to account and be demanded to fully demonstrate how it was anti -american etc etc.

If we go strictly by the Oxford English definition of 'anti-' meaning 'opposed to' then yes I am anti-american but the reason I am arguing certain points is that I disagree with the popular definition of Anti-American as being irrational, unfounded, racist, bigotted etc etc because I believe it to be none of these.

Sand

Nah Eomer I wasnt specifically talking about you - previously when the term anti-american was used to describe a poster or position there was a bit of an inquisition about it and it became more trouble that it was worth. Now that posters are saying, Yes, they are anti-american kinda makes it less of a taboo to muse that posters might enter a debate with the position that whatever else is going on theres one certainty - the americans are wrong and evil, and whoever theyre against - well if theyre not good their actions are at least understandable,

dahamsta

If this thread does anything it disproves the legend that theres no such thing as anti-americanism

New legend to me. As far as I can see, a good percentage of the world hates America with every fibre of their being; and not just the kind of anti-americanism you get here either, or at least they kind we're accused of. I think our problem is that we need about five new words to define the dislikes we're feeling, because these hate-creators don't understand that words can have nuances, and hatred and dislike can have levels.

I don't consider myself anti-american, however I hate some aspects of American society, some groups of American people, and some sections of American administration. And I love some aspects of them too. Right now, the aspects that I hate are more visible than the aspects that I love, and I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed expound on the bad, when no-one had a problem with me expounding on the good. Calling me anti-american because of that is irrational and childish.

If we're to use the anti-american-accusers logic, they're fomenting their own hatred and creating a blight of anti-europeans. Isn't this just McCarthyism all over again, only with even worse logic and even less reason?

Anti-americanism is an American invention. America can keep it, thanks all the same.

adam

bonkey

The one thing that struck recently me is this :

If disliking some aspect of the US, its people or its policy makes you anti-American, is there any such thing as a "pro-American" ???

Or is there some elite list of things which qualify you to be anti-American, and if so, who picked it? Does the logic apply to all nationalities equally - that these (and only these) qualifications can or should be used to determine if you are pro-/anti- NationX???



jc

monument

<START RANT> I currently believe I can say I am anti-country_X with out being anti-country_X’s people.

I can easily say I am anti ANY country shaped by pressure groups and other groups, industries & people with lots of money and not by the general population.

I can also say I am anti ANY country who attacks other countries and say its to free its own people or the people who it’s attacking. When its own people don’t have the freedom or safety from the fear a number of different types of crime or when country has gun laws that make it easy for nearly any body to get a gun. If under the law, humans have the right to own a gun, they must have the right use the gun when THEY think it is ok to do so. <END RANT>

Idris

I am certainly anti-American, I used to be quite fond of America and the people there but then I actually spent a few months getting to know a large group of Americans from all over the country and the only conclusion I can make about them are that they are complete morons, in fact I'm amazed that they have not died out from their sheer stupidity.

The worst thing about them is that they are SO full of themselves, they think that they're the best country in the whole world, they are taught from a young age by a biased (not to mention poor quality) education system which fills them with ideas like "They live in a country that can do no wrong" and "They single-handedly won WWII alone" ~ it genuinely sickens me.

Personally, I believe that Americans are nothing but thieves who are incapable of doing anything by themselves. For example: They live in a country which they stole from the Native Americans, they speak a language which they stole from us (or in some cases other parts of Europe) yet are not greatful. They play sports, the fundamentals of which, are stolen e.g. Baseball is just Rounders and their "football" (air quotes intended) is just a rip-off of Rugby and then to top off their inability to think for themselves they name this "sport" after an already exsisting one - our very own original and best Football.

They can't spell or pronounce any words correctly and frankly, they are just a waste of space.
America should not have gained their independence, they should have remained as a British colony, at least that way the US wouldn't be in the terrible state it is today and the people there wouldn't be such slacked-jawed, inbred, trailer-trash excuses for human life that they are.
I genuinely hate them all and it wouldn't bother me a bit if they were completely destroyed by anti-american countries it would not be a loss to the world.

I genuinely hate them all and it wouldn't bother me a bit if they were completely destroyed by anti-american countries it would not be a loss to the world.

Considering your 1st post is a complete & utter rant, I doubt your opinion will be taken on very well. You see this sort of attitude is part of the problem. America has become isolationistic (actual word?), and this is being fueled by these types of uninformed opinions.

Thing is, America has developed many inventions, and their theorists have made their own mark on the world since the creation of the nation that is america.

Don't get me wrong, I disagree with the US and their current foreign/& domestic policies, but I'm not going to become bigoted abt it.

Do you really feel this way, or is this just to reactivate an old thread?

mike65

Idris wrote:

they speak a language which they stole from us..yet are not greatful.

Rofle!

Mike.