BBC goes FTA: 10th July

carrolls

It would be ironic if BBC ONE and TWO NI appeared on the ROI EPG in their current places, whilst viewers in Northern Ireland itself had to go to the 900s to find the channels.

I think this is going to happen, because I don't see how they can avoid it.
Well, they could move the BBC1 NI and BBC2 NI on an Irish card to the 900's to save face with the 'Norn Iron' community.:D
By the way, now that the BBC is free in Ireland (Soon), will BSkyB reduce the Irish subscription?

SRB

---

It would be ironic if BBC ONE and TWO NI appeared on the ROI EPG in their current places, whilst viewers in Northern Ireland itself had to go to the 900s to find the channels.

---

No more ironic than viewers in NI being able to watch RTE via analogue tele, yet being unable to watch it on sat.

Richard

Originally posted by carrolls

By the way, now that the BBC is free in Ireland (Soon), will BSkyB reduce the Irish subscription?

No, especially if they continue to pay the BBC something. I'm sure the BBC could threaten to move their channels off the ROI EPG altogether if Sky stop paying them. Sure, they'd still be in "Other Channels", but....

Richard

Originally posted by SRB

---

It would be ironic if BBC ONE and TWO NI appeared on the ROI EPG in their current places, whilst viewers in Northern Ireland itself had to go to the 900s to find the channels.

---

No more ironic than viewers in NI being able to watch RTE via analogue tele, yet being unable to watch it on sat.

No - that is not ironic at all! It is unfortunate. The BBC situation would be ironic because you would expect viewers in the Republic not to get Northern Irish channels in a more prominant position that those in Northern Ireland!

johnnyq

In a way the BBC have hit a brick wall.Things don't seem to be going smoothly as they had hoped.Everyone will give out that their regional channel will be inaccessable (900's).Is it possible that the BBC REGIONS THEMSELVES could bring the FTA plan down ?

watty

For the regional variations that people actually want, they don't need the 900s (Where regional BBCs already are), but it will be accessible via BBCi on Digiboxes. Or by TV then 1 or 2 for most people.

On NOT-Digiboxes you get to chouse your own channel numbers anyway...

carrolls

In a way, the BBC's in the 900's are in a more convenient location than those in the 200's.
Just press the UP button and you are there.

West Briton

I don't see how having the regions in the 900's or wherever should be a problem.

I don't use the TV Guide to navigate as I find it unwieldy. Remembering a different three digit code or changing two of your favourites isn't exactly brain surgery, though judging from some of the comments in another place it might as well be.

Richard

Originally posted by West Briton
I don't see how having the regions in the 900's or wherever should be a problem.

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but there is a notice on BBCi DSat (ROI) saying that BBC 1 and 2 London will be on 101 and 102. The notice doesn't mention the Republic, however.

johnnyq

Originally posted by Richard
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but there is a notice on BBCi DSat (ROI) saying that BBC 1 and 2 London will be on 101 and 102. The notice doesn't mention the Republic, however.

That probobly won't affect us here

Mossy Monk

it would be miraculous for BBC1 and BBC2 to take 101 and 102 on our EPG's

Leesider

Originally posted by Richard
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but there is a notice on BBCi DSat (ROI) saying that BBC 1 and 2 London will be on 101 and 102. The notice doesn't mention the Republic, however.

Where on BBCi does it say this?
I spent a while scanning through pages llast night, but couldn't find the article.

Richard

Originally posted by Leesider
Where on BBCi does it say this?
I spent a while scanning through pages llast night, but couldn't find the article.

I honestly can't remember, but I'll have a look tonight.

DMC

BREAKING NEWS

On MediaGuardian's front page...

4pm: The BBC has settled its ongoing row with BSkyB. It means BBC1 and BBC2's position at top of electonic TV listing on Sky systems is now secure. More follows.

DMC

Looks like Encryption is back!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,977149,00.html

BBC and BSkyB end satellite row

Owen Gibson
Friday June 13, 2003

After months of brinkmanship, the BBC and BSkyB have finally settled their protracted row over an £85m deal to guarantee distribution to their 7m subscribers.

They have agreed a new deal, believed to represent savings of tens of millions of pounds, which will ensure BBC1 and BBC2 will remain the first channels viewers see on the electronic TV listings that come up automatically when Sky viewers switch on.

In a second development, the BBC will continue to pay Sky to ensure that regional versions of BBC1 and BBC2 appear in Scotland, Wales and northern Ireland.

The complicated deal, which centres on encryption and conditional access services, is being seen in some quarters as a U-turn by the BBC's director general Greg Dyke who in March announced he was severing all links with Sky.

He made it plain he was determined to blaze a trail for all commercial broadcasters who he believed have been unnecessarily tethered to Sky's technology.

Television watchdogs were called in to adjudicate on the deal last month after negotiations between the two sides broke down and were due to rule on the row by mid July.

The two sides have been widely expected to come to an arrangement ever since BBC director general Greg Dyke sparked the row in March by suddenly declaring that the BBC was to switch its transmissions to a different satellite.

Although poles apart on the issue publicly, the two sides are thought to have been back in talks since they decided to team up to bid for the rights to the FA Cup.

The two broadcasters are thought to have mounted a joint £250m bid to retain the rights, effectively freezing out ITV and forcing the Football Association to take a significant hit on the £345m they paid for the existing deal.

BSkyB was also thought to be a concerned that a ruling in the BBC's favour would set a precedent allowing ITV, Channel 4 and Channel 5 to follow suit and abandon the Sky service, has finally agreed to a compromise deal.

Under the agreement, the corporation will retain the top two slots on the programme guide but has agreed to pay BSkyB to develop a system that will allow viewers to choose the correct regional version of the BBC's TV channels.

By broadcasting "in the clear" Mr Dyke claimed that the corporation would save £85m over five years because it would no longer have to pay "conditional access" fees.

But it has since admitted that it will have to spend £40m over that period to provide different versions of its regional channels by satellite, a large chunk of which will now be paid to BSkyB.

BSkyB, worried that other terrestrial broadcasters would follow suit, immediately hit back by threatening to consign the BBC to the digital wilderness and list BBC channels among the sex and shopping channels at the bottom of the programme guide through which subscribers choose what to watch.

The BBC agreed to delay the launch of its free to air satellite service until the independent television commission could rule on the issue but will now switch off its scrambled broadcasts at the end of the month.

It will mean that for the first time, viewers in Scotland will be able to watch BBC London and that anyone with a satellite dish and a receiver can watch the BBC's digital channels without a viewing card.

DMC

So to decepher the MediaGuardian stubble...

On the face of it, Conditional access may be back, but Sky are to implement a tool where you can choose what 101 and 102 you want to watch. At the end of this month, it is turning off "its scrambled broadcasts"

I'm still confused!

carrolls

but Sky are to implement a tool where you can choose what 101 and 102 you want to watch

It would defeat the pupose of this tool if the BBC were to remain encrypted after July 14th.
What the statement means probably is that the signals will not be encrypted, but if you have a card, the right regions will appear on 101/102.
But if there is no card in, this tool will allow you to manually set the region.
Media Guardian have a knack for taking a two line statement and writing an article based on it that can be interpreted in a number of opposite ways.
BTW: The original Media Guardian article posted today said the Beeb had abandoned plans to go FTA. They quickly changed it after a call to the BBC probably. Tossers.:rolleyes:

Mossy Monk

posts on digitalspy suggest that BBC will be FTA from July 10th which is better than July 14th

Greenman

You mean this

Greenman

And this.

byte

Wow! Interesting developments! Why do Media Guardian seem to blow things out of proportion though! It wouldn't be the first time. :rolleyes:

johnnyq

So does all this mean that the BBC will be encrypted but it won't be encrypted

johnnyq

Originally posted by DMC


Under the agreement, the corporation will retain the top two slots on the programme guide but has agreed to pay BSkyB to develop a system that will allow viewers to choose the correct regional version of the BBC's TV channels.

How is this a compromise??

spuddy

The BBC has confirmed that it has reached a five-year distribution agreement with BSkyB.

The news brings an end to wrangling between the two organisations that began in March, shortly after the BBC announced it would stop using Sky's conditional access system and broadcast in the clear, the BBC confirmed it will begin broadcasting unencrypted from July 10th.

Sky fought back against the BBC's decision, threatening to pull BBC One and BBC Two from the flagship EPG positions of 101 and 102 respectively. This prompted the BBC to file a complaint with the Independent Television Commission in April. The compromise agreement announced tonight has resulted in that complaint being withdrawn.

The substance of the new agreement is that BBC One and BBC Two will continue broadcasting on EPG positions 101 and 102. For viewers using a "Solus" card, BBC One London will broadcast on 101 and BBC Two England will broadcast on 102. Other regional variations will be accessible through the EPG. For viewers using a Sky card, the BBC has purchased a "regionalisation package" from Sky that will result in viewers receiving their local BBC One region and BBC Two nation at 101 and 102 respectively.

All 22 regional and national variations of the BBC's channels are expected to be on digital satellite by this autumn, the corporation has also confirmed.
.

But what I'd like to know is what about the people without "Solus" cards, will it be an 'other channels' job?

carrolls

Heres the actual BBC Press release.

BBC and BSkyB announce agreement on digital satellite distribution

BSkyB and the BBC today (Friday 13 June 2003) announced a five year agreement which includes the continued allocation to BBC ONE and BBC TWO of channel numbers 101 and 102 on BSkyB's Electronic Programme Guide (EPG).

Therefore the BBC will withdraw its complaint, made in April 2003, to the Independent Television Commission.

From 10 July, the BBC will broadcast all eight television channels in the clear.

By Autumn 2003, all 22 national and regional variations of BBC ONE and BBC TWO will be available and listed on the EPG.

As part of the agreement, the BBC is buying a regionalisation service from BSkyB to ensure that viewers within the UK with Sky viewing cards will continue to automatically receive the right national and regional versions of BBC ONE and BBC TWO at 101 and 102 respectively.

The agreement will end the payment by the BBC to BSkyB for the provision of "Solus" viewing cards to digital satellite viewers who do not have a subscription to a pay-TV service.

In future, viewers will continue to be able to view all unencrypted channels and will receive versions of BBC ONE London and BBC TWO England in the 101 and 102 positions.

They will also be able to manually select the rest of the BBC's national and regional variations listed on the EPG.

BHG

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2003/06_june/13/dsat_statement.shtml

The bbc have not compromised with sky, bbc came out in March
asking to pay for the dev of regional 101/102 splits, unlike the Irish 101/102 that is blanket to Irish boxes the Beeb wanted a sub menu choice like the 6 News bbci thing only better more
fixed in the EPG, so no back down for BBC.

The BBC compromise is that as of May30 bbc said they would have all regional versions on astra2D, they don't they won't have it by July10/14 it now says autumn 2003

when they say 8 channels they mean 7 as we FTA viewers are
already glued to BBC PARLIAMENT

These major delays by BBC and the May30 pass by makes me wonder if their BBC Five Live claim is true at all, will we get
R5L & its sister sport xtra?

I support the FTA move - but I think the BBC blinked or winked
in Skys direction too often of late. FA cup Freeview Partner, BskyB
or BBcryB - Dyke goes the USA and slags off NewSinTernational while dealing with them at home, while the BBC war effort was
not text book impartiality.

-
bfn bhg
reality bites - RTEs Cabin Fever sikins off west coast of Ireland

TVDX

Ok, you see the way they say that this will end their payment to BSkyB for the provision of "Solus" cards, what will this mean?.

Will the cards be shut off after that date?.
Or will there at least be a bit of downtime where they(ITV, C4, and C5) decide what to do?.

Is it possible it will just mean they wont issue anymore?,
and that the remaining ones will be active?.

I just want C4 till the end of BB!.
But, i am on standby to order a UK sub, so i wont worry about that.

channelsurfer

so to cut a long story short would i be right in saying anyone in ireland who takes out their sky card or dosent subs to sky will access bbc 1& 2 as of july 10th on 101 ana 102 complety free by rebooting their digbox

byte

I would think that existing Solus cards will remain active indefinitely. And that the card will continue to show the relevant BBC region at 101 and 102

As part of the agreement, the BBC is buying a regionalisation service from BSkyB to ensure that viewers within the UK with Sky viewing cards will continue to automatically receive the right national and regional versions of BBC ONE and BBC TWO at 101 and 102 respectively.

channelsurfer, I would assume so, though with the current software, once you remove your ROI card, RTEs etc, will still remain at 101, etc on the EPG. Though I suppose it would work if ya reboot with your viewing card inserted upside down.

Originally posted by channelsurfer
so to cut a long story short would i be right in saying anyone in ireland who takes out their sky card or dosent subs to sky will access bbc 1& 2 as of july 10th on 101 ana 102 complety free by rebooting their digbox

Probably not, but possibly yes:D
I'd expect the current fta EPG to remain the same and the new EPG situation to apply to EPG's loaded by UK cards only.
Because the services will be un encrypted, that should mean that they are available on other channels, even if you have an Irish card in your box, unless the new regionalisation software update included a 08 message for paddies.
That would be silly though when all paddy would have to do would be take out the card, re-boot and tune them in as other channels without his card.


On the subject of "solus" cards: Don't expect them to be switched off either, as it would mean ITV only being available on the most popular digital system with a Sky subscription.
The ITC wouldn't like that, and neither would ITV.
It wouldn't suit Sky either as, it might encourage some more people to opt for freeview ( even though Sky have a leg in there, they would rather for obvious reasons, people in the were buying digiboxes instead ) where available.
mm

johnnyq

On an interesting note a website called ANANOVA say that
"BSkyB has also agreed a five-year deal with Five which renews its existing access arrangements."
I am confused about what this means?
Does it mean that FIVE will not be FTA for 5 years or the opposite?

watty

My interpretation of news:

EPG system for now for those having a card won't change. The ITV / SC4~digidol etc regionalisation will apply. No word of Sky doing a region menu.

Without a card 101/102 is BBC1 and BBC 2 London. This will appliy to an ROI box rebooted with upside down card. Other regions will be in 900s, as BBC2 regions are now on UK cards.

ROI cards will be unchanged. Extra BBC will only be by "other channels" as BBC Parliament and BBC Radio is today.

BBC will work with no card or even with a non-digibox Digital receiver from 10th July.

BBC to spend money adding England regions which have never been full time on Satellite.


Five is continuing present deal for 5 years. To me this means cancelled Sub cards, old FTV/Solus cards will still work for Five, ITV and C4. It might mean you will still be able to get a FTV card (only needed for ITV, C4 and Five) as Five does pay a small proportion of FTV centre costs..

BBC also will have a BBCi menu to select region for non-card Digibox users and perhaps for those with a London subscription to watch BBC1 Scotland without going to 900s.

EPG numbering irrelevent to non-digiboxes and PC satellite cards and FTA PVRs all of which will work with BBC from 10th July.


The ROI card will be unchanged. You will have to either use "other channels" or repower digibox with upside down card (no ITV/C4 or Five) or get a Cancelled UK sub card or UK FTV/Solus card if you want ITV/C4/Five.

Expect ITV to go FTA next year but obviously "Five" which are part Sky owned have signed for anothe r 5 years, Since Ch4 uses Sky encription for E4 and Film 4 they unlikely to give it up soon either.

RTE unlikely to be FTA before 2008 or even later.

Originally posted by johnnyq
On an interesting note a website called ANANOVA say that
"BSkyB has also agreed a five-year deal with Five which renews its existing access arrangements."
I am confused about what this means?
Does it mean that FIVE will not be FTA for 5 years or the opposite?

It's existing arrangements mean that.
08 if you tune it in on an Irish card or without one.
mm

Zaphod

From the Tele-satellite newsletter:

BBC CHANNELS FREE-TO-AIR FROM JULY 10
From 10 July, the BBC will broadcast all eight of its digital television
channels in the clear on the Astra satellite. By autumn 2003, all 22
national and regional variations of BBC ONE and BBC TWO will be available.
As part of a new agreement with BSkyB, there will no longer be any need for
digital satellite viewers to have a viewing card in order to watch BBC
services. That means satellite viewers within the Astra 2D footprint (which
includes the Benelux countries) will for the first time be able to view all
the BBC channels unencrypted without the need for a Sky digibox. But it's
bad news for British expatriates living further away in Europe. Because the
footprint of the BBC transmissions is much tighter than that used for the
Sky package, they'll need a much larger dish to receive a decent signal.
This arrangement was originally meant to start on 31 May, but was delayed
by an argument over the positions of BBC1 and BBC2 on the Electronic
Programme Guide. Sky had threatened to move them off their 101 and 102
positions. Under the agreement, the corporation will retain the top two
slots on the programme guide but has agreed to pay BSkyB to develop a
system that will allow viewers to choose the correct regional version of
the BBC's TV channels.

Sin e an Fear

From the Tele-satellite newsletter:

Where's the URL?

Sin e an Fear

From the Tele-satellite newsletter:

Where's the URL?

Here?

philengland

yes - www.tele-satellite.com and also www.digitalnewsfeed.co.uk

Zaphod

That's the one.

Satkurier provide a similar service at:
www.satkurier.com

carrolls

Quote from Digital Spy

Radio 1's Newsbeat have just announced that BBC Three and BBC Four are to change on the $ky EPG. The new channel numbers will take affect on Wednesday (18th June). The new numbers are 115 (BBC Three) and 116 (BBC Four). Freeview and Cable customers are not affected.

I wonder does this mean the big encryption switch off will take place on the 18th too?

Richard

Originally posted by carrolls

I wonder does this mean the big encryption switch off will take place on the 18th too?

I doubt it. It could clear 160/161/162 for alternative BBC regions, though since 101 and 102 will now hold the correct regions for most viewers, there may not be any point.

The thing to watch out for, though is - will they appear at 115/116 on ROI cards?

watty

NO. The existing BBC4/BBC3/Cbeebies/Cbbc are not on ROI card.

While Beeb doesn't especially mind us watching they won't pay Sky a brass farthing more than they half to. Placement on ROI EPG as well as UK EPG is extra.

But I'll check on my PC for FTA regular. I'd expect some channel maybe the night before the 10th to go FTA, maybe News24? (A Guess).

See my poll in the Cable forum "Is Chorus /NTL Doomed?"

watty

Originally posted by channelsurfer:
so to cut a long story short would i be right in saying anyone in ireland who takes out their sky card or dosent subs to sky will access bbc 1& 2 as of july 10th on 101 ana 102 complety free by rebooting their digbox

It looks very like that whatever you do the extra Beeb will *ONLY* be on "other channels" unless you have a UK card. Though ironically even a cancelled one (i.e. replaced and no good for ITV) will do the UK EPG.

It looks like the the "no card" or "faulty card" EPG is missing main FTA channels. BBC Radio, BBC Parliament and S4C~Digidol missing.

The FTA channels DO work on a "UK" box with a totally dead ROI card, which brings up the ROI EPG!!! The reverse will be true..

Suggestion/guesswork... based on above
Sky hasn't asked for the old cards back of recent upgrades. These cards ARE blocked, they don't work for any pay or FTV channel. But they will bring up a UK or ROI EPG after power on, and the FTA channels will work .. including BBC after 10th July!

Richard

Originally posted by watty
NO. The existing BBC4/BBC3/Cbeebies/Cbbc are not on ROI card.

While Beeb doesn't especially mind us watching they won't pay Sky a brass farthing more than they half to. Placement on ROI EPG as well as UK EPG is extra.

If this is the case (not that I have any reason to doubt you), why are channels such as S4C2 (which surely has very little interest to most viewers here) on the ROI EPG?

Also, don't forget that when CBBC/Cbeebies launched, they appeared on the ROI EPG initally. They weren't, of course watchable, but they were there all the same.

Of course, the reason why BBC Radio isn't on the ROI EPG is that part of the deal they struck when they launched the FTA Radio was that if they kept it off the ROI EPG it would cost them less (as they were harder to listen to). The same may well apply to TV.

ShaneOC

BBC Worldwide (the commercial arm of the BBC) were responsible for the deal that allowed BBC1NI and the BBC2NI to appear on Sky for Irish viewers. How much extra could it cost for the channels to be added to the EPG here. I can't see all the small little channels FTN, CNX, etc paying out extra to appear on the Irish EPG. It is really a case of dual standards.

Adding all of the BBC channels to the Irish EPG would be beneficial to everyone. Sky could use it as a marketting gimmick, the BBC could make a few bob and we would be happy customers.

watty

Originally posted by Richard
Of course, the reason why BBC Radio isn't on the ROI EPG is that part of the deal they struck when they launched the FTA Radio was that if they kept it off the ROI EPG it would cost them less (as they were harder to listen to). The same may well apply to TV.

This is what I have suggested. Though I suspect Sky Machinations also.

S4C always intended to be FTA. It took a few years to sort out rights issues. I think they want to widely available, even in Ireland. I rang S4C to get "turned on" and they did try to get me "turned on" on an ROI card! This was when even UK cards did not automatically have S4C~digidol. (Naturally they couldn't turn on and ROI card then).

I'm puzzelled and suspect Sky of being obtuse by fact that not only are BBC Radio and parliament missing form FTA EPG but S4C~digidol is too.

Leesider

The new channel numbers 115/116 are now active on a UK card, but as expected, are not on ROI EPG.

carrolls

I can't see all the small little channels FTN, CNX, etc paying out extra to appear on the Irish EPG.

These channels are part of the Irish family Pack. Better examples would be Performance and CNN.

carrolls

from ireland.com Tues 17th July 2003

RTÉ has expressed serious concern about an announcement by the BBC that from July 10th it will broadcast its eight TV channels unencrypted to anyone with a satellite dish and a decoder in Britain and Ireland.

Irish viewers will for the first time be able to receive eight BBC channels, plus up to 90 others, free once they have a satellite dish and a decoder for a once-off cost of about €500. The BBC named the date for the new development on Friday.

An RTÉ spokeswoman said the announcement had major implications for RTÉ. The station is concerned a significant number of people will ditch their cable or satellite contracts and pay the one-off cost for the eight BBC services and other channels, among them CNN and QVC.

These viewers will still be able to access Irish channels like RTÉ via old-fashioned aerials or "rabbit ears" free. While this should help the Irish channels maintain their viewing figures, Irish stations are worried people will fall out of the habit of switching between their satellite service and an aerial.

Viewers who choose the satellite option would only have to pay once, whereas RTÉ channels on digital are currently available on Sky, a subscription-based service.

This deal with Sky continues for another four years and some sources in RTÉ are concerned about being tied to this arrangement when a relatively cheap alternative will be available for viewers who purchase their own satellite dish.

The Astra 2D satellite covers Ireland and Britain and that is why viewers in Ireland can pick up the BBC channels via a satellite dish. Until now, such channels were encrypted or scrambled in the Republic, but now they will be "in the clear" or unscrambled.

Meanwhile, the Minister for Communications, Mr Ahern, in a Daíl reply has promised to meet television companies on the issue and discuss what action, if any, should be taken.

In reply to a question from Labour's Mr Tommy Broughan, Mr John Browne, answering on behalf of the Minister, said: "The BBC's decision, especially if other UK terrestrial broadcasters follow suit, has implications for Irish television audiences, Irish broadcasters and for those who sell television services in the Irish market."

"The Minister has had discussions with representatives of the industry in Ireland on its implications. He will shortly meet representatives of both the broadcasters and platform operators to give them a further opportunity to outline their concerns and to listen to their views on what action, if any, should be taken," he added.

On Friday, after months of squabbling, the BBC and BSkyB finally settled a protracted row in Britain over an £85 million (€120 million) deal that guarantees distribution of the BBC's channels to 6.7 million Sky homes.

They have agreed a new deal, believed to represent savings of tens of millions of pounds, which will ensure BBC1 and BBC2 remain the first channels Sky viewers see on the electronic TV listings that appear on screen automatically when they switch on their sets.

The deal has been described in Britain as a U-turn by the BBC director general, Mr Greg Dyke, who announced in March he was severing all links with Sky. While Mr Dyke is prepared to work with Sky, he has decided that BBC channels will be unencrypted and that is what is concerning the Irish television industry.

Where are they getting the €500 from?
You can get a FTA Digital receiver for £89 Sterling, and a MiniDish and LNB for £70. Borrow your neighbours drill and install it yourself. All for the princely sum of €200 .;)

Icehouse

http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,979961,00.html

BHG

>Where are they getting the €500 from?
>You can get a FTA Digital receiver for £89 Sterling, and a
>MiniDish and LNB for £70. Borrow your neighbours drill and
>install it yourself. All for the princely sum of €200

I paid Euro 605 for twin cam DVB rec. + 1M dish + motor.
I expect to pay about Eur200 to import a fixed solution. but

1. If you are out of contract, Sky gear will do it,
what’s an EPG anyway, I never had one so I wont miss it <g>
if the country hits hard times and BBC gets more soccer
then more & more Sky unsubscriptions will have idle gear to
point @ more BBC than you got when you paid Sky.

2. LIDL will sell FTA DVB gear as they have done in the UK within
the last two months, I know they sold out of the Analog gear
in Ireland, @ Eur60 about last June, so If LIDL get a truck from
?spain? with ?tecnomates? and LIDL dishes <pun> expect to pay
<guess> Eur139

July 10th 2003
my eldest will want CBBC while the next two will want
CBeeBies, wife wants BCC1/3 and I want BBC 2/4 and R5L+
sports extra. not that we are glued to the TV or anything.

Now all I need is a second hand mini dish, as the 1M doesn't like
westerly winds @ 28.x deg

cheers bhg/