UTVip and FRIACO

p2p

I like the fact that Lite users will be able to use the 30 hours at peak times too. Perfect! Nice one UTVip

Does this mean that the non lite users will be restricted to 150 hours per month with the concession that they will be able to connect anytime?

Forgive me if im asking a stupid question but will there still be a limit on the hours imposed but no limit on when the user connects , ie not true FRIACO ? If you can clarify this that would be great..

Cork

It is great to see a company with some customer service.

Have UTVip any idea when a FAIRCO product will be offered?

Will it still be bundled in with the UTV phone service?

I am not a UTVip customer but I am seriously considering it.

Well done - UTVip.

aidan_dunne

Originally posted by p2p
Does this mean that the non lite users will be restricted to 150 hours per month with the concession that they will be able to connect anytime?

Forgive me if im asking a stupid question but will there still be a limit on the hours imposed but no limit on when the user connects , ie not true FRIACO ? If you can clarify this that would be great..

I was just about to ask the same thing. Is this going to be a service that can be accessed at any time, day or night, for as long as you want (perhaps with a reasonable disconnect time every few hours, say every 3 or 4 hours to stop people acting the bo**ocks and using it like an always-on connection) or is it going to be a BT UK style service of an allowance of 150 hours that you can use anytime, day or night? Because if it's the latter then it's not a proper flat-rate service, is it? It's just the same as the current offering only it can be used any time as opposed to just off-peak.

Okay, while it would be a start and pretty welcome, a 150 hours allowance service isn't proper flat-rate, though. Of course, surprise surprise, a lot of this will probably come down to what Eircom decides too, I bet.

Can someone from UTVip clear all this up please? That's, of course, if you have any idea yourselves what's going to happen as I'm sure these things are still being worked out.

exiztone

I was curious about this myself.
Either way, it's still a step forward right?
But if UTVip DO however decide to make it peak/offpeak but restricted to 150 hours. I beg of them to increase the hours to round about 200, because if I have the option to go on peak time, I'll use up my hours much much quicker

SkepticOne

I'm a bit worried that people talking about huge numbers of hours will put UTV off offering true flat rate access like they do in the North. Flat rate only works if it appeals mainly to those who want a fixed bill each month and no call charges, but aren't necessarily going to use it all hours.

UTV can easily show that it isn't economical if the average is above a certain number of hours a month. If they are then forced to introduce caps on the number of hours, this will put of light and moderate users who don't want to keep track of the hours they use.

Flat rate is not possible if the ISP (any ISP) only caters to the heavy users. It is only possible if it appeals to large numbers of light users. The relatively small number of heavy users can then be accomodated.

What we need, therefore, is a low cost, true flat rate product that appeals the a very wide range of people. It needs fairly heavy advertising too, to bring them in.

nahdoic

150 hours is still 5 hours a day for me. Personally, that's plenty for me.

Perhaps UTV could introduce a super heavy user package at a more expensive price, that also allows for 2 ISDN lines to be used at once? Personally I don't want to subsidise people who feel the need to use the net more than 5 hours a day. This isn't a broadband service.

Would people who want to use it more than 150 hours be prepared to pay more? If not, I'm not sure what you expect a company looking to make a profit to do.

PiE

I think you're missing the whole point of FRIACO nahdoic.

FRIACO is supposed to make it profitable for a company to allow unrestricted dialup access (within reason of course).

If I'm still stuck with 56k come June, I don't wanna be watching any feckin' online-timer whatsoever.

And 5hours a day may be fine for the average user, but what about companies who need it on from 9am-6pm? (Or 24/7 for that matter.)

SkepticOne

Originally posted by PiE
And 5hours a day may be fine for the average user, but what about companies who need it on from 9am-6pm? (Or 24/7 for that matter.)

In Britain, some ISPs have special day time only services based on FRIACO in addition to 24 hour and off-peak FRIACO based producs. This is the way I would like to see things developing here.

By 24 hour, I mean anytime as opposed to all the time. Flat rate dial-up (based on FRIACO wholesale or otherwise) will never be "always on". For this, you really need broadband.

The problem with different products for heavy and light users is that we are back to the clock watching situation, i.e., non flat rate, since heavy and light users will be defined according to the number of hours they use.

If we want true flat rate, we need to start thinking about those who won't be heavy users. These are the people who make money for the ISP. It is because of these people that the relatively small number of heavy users can be accomodated.

What I would like to see from UTV in particular is something like the Esat, ahem, "nolimits" service, but with idle cutoffs and mandatory periodic cut offs to free up the modem banks rather than time allowances.

Light users won't be affected too much by these cut offs but will be attracted to the fixed monthly bills and no call charges.

This won't be an easy feat to pull off, but if anyone can do it, UTV can. They have the experience and marketing power.

nahdoic

Actually PiE, i think you're getting confused between FRIACO and broadband.

If a company is using FRIACO to stay on-line from 9:00 am to 5:00pm then they are already abusing the service. That's just not profitable for the ISP. If a company needs that, and they can't get it from broadband, then they should be prepared to pay more for it.

Yes, it sure would be nice not have to watch any on-line timer, it sure would be nice to have to pay anything for our internet access, it sure would be nice if we were all on 100mBit/s internet connections, it sure would be nice ...

But let's deal with reality, UTV only have a certain amount of bandwidth available at any one time, and they'll have to portion that out to their users in a profitable way.

If an individual intends to use the service, keeping their line always on 24/7, that just isn't profitable for any company. Or excessively using the service more than the average person, why shouldn't they have to pay more? Why should the average users, who use the service reasonably have to subsidise these people?

nahdoic

We don't want clock-watching of couse, but there's a heck of a difference between clock-watching for 150 hrs a month, and clock-watching for per min. charging.

I personally don't mind, slightly restricting my use of the internet, if it means I can get a cheaper net package.

And with FRIACO it would be possible now for UTV to introduce a more expensive and a good deal more unrestricted service for the heavy users. While keep a nice and cheap service for the light users.

seamus

Originally posted by aidan_dunne
Is this going to be a service that can be accessed at any time, day or night, for as long as you want ........ or is it going to be a BT UK style service of an allowance of 150 hours that you can use anytime, day or night? Because if it's the latter then it's not a proper flat-rate service, is it? It's just the same as the current offering only it can be used any time as opposed to just off-peak.

Originally posted by Scott Taunton
Any UTVip customer, active on or before 1 June 2003 will pay no more for our 24/7 FRIACO product than they currently pay for their UTVip off-peak subscription. We will allow all of our customers to convert to the 24/7 product at no extra cost and without any setup or admin charges. Of course, should our FRIACO price be less than our UTVip service, your subscription will be changed to reflect the price reduction.

That seems pretty clear to me UTVip have earned my (and hopefully everyone else's) respect, but even if they say it's 150 hours, it's still good.

I like the "June 1st, 2003" touch (is this an official/estimated release date for UTVip FRIACO? ). I've been seriously considering this, and now have more reason then ever to take a gander at my finances and see if I can make it.

I officially invite everyone from UTVip to the boards beer in McTurkels (Dublin) next Saturday. You'd probably be guaranteed that you won't have to pay for a single drink

SkepticOne

Originally posted by nahdoic
And with FRIACO it would be possible now for UTV to introduce a more expensive and a good deal more unrestricted service for the heavy users. While keep a nice and cheap service for the light users.

Yes, and this would be a vast improvement on what is there already. It would be the end of true flat rate, though, and this would be a great shame.

For true flat rate, I believe the following is needed:

1. Cheap price, possibly limited to off-peak use only (e.g. Freeserves 'hometime'). Aim to capture a large number of users rather than profit from a small number of heavy users.

2. Measures to free up resources (e.g. on Freeserves 'hometime' service users agree to: "All internet calls will be subject to network traffic management controls. Freeserve reserves the right to disconnect you after 2 hours continuous use and/or 10 minutes of inactivity during a connection session.") This would rule out certain activities, but would not affect the light to moderate users too much.

3. Differentiate FRIACO based products on time of use (e.g. evening off peak, day time, and 'any time') rather than number of hours. The complete removal of clock watching will be attractive to all and be a major selling point.

4. Advertise widely, emphasising convenience, lack of call charges and the fixed monthly price.

5. Encourage heavy users onto broadband, if available. This will become possible once the 54 euro product is out. A lot of these users will want broadband anyway.

Urban Weigl

A 150 hour monthly limit would defeat the purpose of having a FRIACO based access product. And for those using much less (I know there will be a lot of people only using it for about an hour a day), they may feel ripped off because they aren't using all their "pre paid online time".

On the other hand having some fair use restrictions such as a 15 minute idle timeout and a kickoff time of between 2 and 4 hours would be much fairer. Clock watching just should not to forced upon people again.

PiE

You'll notice I said "within reason", but if for example I need to be online for 200hrs the odd month, I don't wanna have to pay extra for that. If I was continually using it for 200-300 hours per month, well of course I'd expect to be warned by the ISP, but I don't wanna have to buy a more expensive pre-paid minutes package just on the off-chance I might need it once or twice during the year.

Hopefully this is all pointless anyway, and UTV will have DSL out before then.

Why should the average users, who use the service reasonably have to subsidise these people?

Originally posted by nahdoic
But let's deal with reality...

nahdoic

A 150 hour monthly limit would defeat the purpose of having a FRIACO based access product.
The purpose is for the ISP to be able to get access at a flat rate, no off-peak, no on-peak, no per min. charging. A flat rate charge for a certain amount of bandwidth.

And for those using much less (I know there will be a lot of people only using it for about an hour a day), they may feel ripped off because they aren't using all their "pre paid online time"

They'd be able to get UTVip lite at a really, really cheap price.

On the other hand having some fair use restrictions such as a 15 minute idle timeout and a kickoff time of between 2 and 4 hours would be much fairer. Clock watching just should not to forced upon people again.

You're kidding right? the only way a kick off would work, would be, if you had been on-line for 4 hours, then you couldn't get connected for say another hour. If it's just a matter of dialing up to the net again, then it's not going to make the slightest difference to heavy users.

Urban Weigl

nahdoic, I did not think up the model I am proposing. It is tried and tested in the UK, by ISP's such as Freeserve, Tiscali and AOL (actually AOL don't have any kickoff or limitations at all, I believe). Last time I checked, the laws of physics were the same in Ireland as the UK.

nahdoic

Urban Weigl,

This country, unlike other countries is starved of actual broadband, and believe ISDN to be broadband. You give this country the ability to be connected 24/7 without a real and effective alternative to actual broadband, and propose such limp restrictions as 15 min idle cut off time, and a 2 hour disconnect, watch as the service becomes over loaded, and jammed to capacity by the heavy users. Mark my words.

Urban Weigl

While I take your point, to be absolutely fair about this the UK was in a similar situation when FRIACO was first introduced -- ADSL was unavailable to most people, and the price was far too high.

If we end up with capacity problems, the solution is to improve the customers per port ratio. If that forces the price up, ComReg has a good pretext to make Eircom lower its wholesale FRIACO prices. I for one would like to believe that Ireland still has a chance.

SkepticOne

I think there is a certain agreement that there won't be 24/7 "always on" flat rate internet access out of the FRIACO wholesale product. It would be nice to have it, but it is not realistic to expect it.

In terms of restrictions, however, I think that time based restrictions would be unfortunate. Let's say an ISB brought out a 200 hour a month package. This would not be particularly attractive to light users for whom 200 hours seems to an incredible amount of time to spend sitting in front of a computer. Of course they would not be forced to do so, but they would feel they are not getting their moneys worth if they don't.

On the other hand, Moderate users would tend to increase their usage in order to use up 'their' 200 hours.

These are, admittedly, two extremes, but nevertheless, the ISP would be left catering to mainly moderate to heavy users and might therefore have to reduce the monthly allowance in order to be profitable.

This is why I would follow the UK model with cut offs rather than time based restrictions.

Pure time based restrictions are crude in any case in that they don't take into acccount the peak hours of use.

nahdoic

PiE, Urban Weigl, SkepticOne the freeserver model works by attracting a huge number of people a low, low price and offering 24x7 net access and then kicking off the heavy users, or giving the heavy users a lousy quality of service. This works, is this what we want? Well it will attract in the low end users, so yes that's a good idea.

But with the complete lack of affordable BB, I think an ISP should also offer a better, more reliable service to business/heavy users at a more expensive price, without 2 hour cut offs. However this is going to be very hard to market if you're already saying you're offering 24/7 internet access at a low, low price.

It really does depend, do you want your ISP to be up front and honest, or devious and sly? I really like the 150 hrs a limit, it's up front and honest. But from what I'm hearing not too many people seem to think like that. Freeserve say they provide 24/7 access to get you in, but if you start actually using it 24/7 they kick you off. You'd fall into their 1% of users of whatever.

I really hope people here aren't deluding themselves to think, that they'll actually get 24/7 access? It's just not possible. But if you work with UTV now, who knows maybe we can work out some products that could actually be better than the rest of the world.

Stonemason

To clarify several points:
1. The initial service will only support single channel ISDN similiar to the existing UTVip service.

2. We will not automatically transfer existing customers to the new service as there will be a minimum three month term re-instated. We would prefer customers to request the upgrade to the new service and agree to whatever the new terms and conditions will be. In the meantime those wishing to move to the new service can request this by e-mail or telephone and we will keep this on record and process closer to launch :

Though both channels would be nice for downloading(something to bare in mind for the future) i was thinking more of gaming which used to cost me a fortune to the point i had to give up.Though Im only on your light user package at the moment this is simply because without decent pings and download speeds i have no need for your 150 hour package.Hopefully come june i will upgrade to your FRIACO deal as i will hopefully have moved back to ISDN (shudders)i will be able to.. as stated before enjoy the net as i once did exept this time round it wont bankrupt me.

Cheers and all the very best UTVip peeps

PS it would great if you could do a package with both ISDN channels as we poor sods in rural areas are unlikely to see broadband for many years

SkepticOne

Originally posted by nahdoic
I really hope people here aren't deluding themselves to think, that they'll actually get 24/7 access? It's just not possible. But if you work with UTV now, who knows maybe we can work out some products that could actually be better than the rest of the world.

I agree that people here should not delude themselves that they are getting "always on" 24/7 access. The restrictions my self and I think Mr Weigl would be proposing would mean the elimination of clock watching for the largest number of people possible. I'm also aware that the FRIACO wholesale rate is not as low as in the UK, so this task would be harder and won't appeal to the 60% or so that use such services attract in that country. It would be lower here.

The ISP could also sell blocks of uninterrupted time for a set fee. This would appeal to heavy users, but I agree that marketing this would be harder.

In terms of being upfront and honest: yes, with the true unmetered product, the ISP can't be completely upfront. I would not equate this with being dishonest, however.

nahdoic

Fair enough, the elimination of clock-watching would indeed be wonderful, and allow people complete freedom to use and explore the net, and learn why they need to get broadband. It would attract an impressive user base, and will work. The service would have to be kept snappy and responsive though, if people are abusing it, they are going to have to target them and remove them after they have been issued a few warnings. They can't provide a service for really heavy users. IOFFLers especially will have to understand they aren't providing a dedicated internet line.

I would like to see another service introduced for heavy/business users with the use of single and/or dual ISDN channel support. A scary number of irish businesses and heavy users aren't going to see broadband for a long time and there is a need for this type of service, at a more expensive cost but with better reliability and no cut offs.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by nahdoic
Fair enough, the elimination of clock-watching would indeed be wonderful, and allow people complete freedom to use and explore the net, and learn why they need to get broadband. It would attract an impressive user base, and will work. The service would have to be kept snappy and responsive though, if people are abusing it, they are going to have to target them and remove them after they have been issued a few warnings.

Yes, but the word 'abusing' is wrong. In order for such a service to work, the ISP may need to remove certain users. The criteria used for such removals would very much depend on the activity of all the users as a whole and the variation between the users. Therefore, the 'acceptable' number of hours can't really be determined in advance. Consequently, people who find themselves above such a limit aren't abusing anything. My real hope is that broadband will spread sufficiently that a lot of these would be on broadband anyway.

They can't provide a service for really heavy users. IOFFLers especially will have to understand they aren't providing a dedicated internet line.

Of course, not all IOFFLers are out for what they can get for themselves. Many are motivated for social reasons. Flat rate, paradoxically, should benefit both groups since it stimulates both supply and demand for broadband.

I would like to see another service introduced for heavy/business users with the use of single and/or dual ISDN channel support. A scary number of irish businesses and heavy users aren't going to see broadband for a long time and there is a need for this type of service, at a more expensive cost but with better reliability and no cut offs.

I don't see flat rate dial-up eliminating such deals. Certainly the FRIACO wholesale deal, removes the distinction between on-peak and off-peak and as such should make day time and business users easier to cater for. In particular, the clever ISP should have packages specifically for ISDN users, since the link can be brought up and down very quickly on ISDN through 'connect on demand' settings. This should be attractive to the ISP.

jonski

Do ye not think the heavy users , gamers and downloaders , will go for adsl now that the wholesale price has been anounced.

I mean me as a gamer will be one of the first to go adsl.

nahdoic

Well the new RADSL offering is still a little pricey, but considering the fact that ISDN and a flat rate package would cost even more, I'd say most people will be going for ADSL, yes. Unless of course they can't because it's not available in their area, which will be the case for 'a scary number of irish businesses and heavy users'.

For hardcore gamers specifically though, I wouldn't be suprised if they keep their ISDN line and get a flat rate ISDN package, you can't get better pings than that, and in gaming it's all about the pings.

And also, we've yet to see the situation wrt caps on the new offering. If the RADSL offering is capped there's no way in heck I'll be getting it, if I have the option of uncapped, flat rate, better pinging ISDN line.

Moriarty

Originally posted by nahdoic
For hardcore gamers specifically though, I wouldn't be suprised if they keep their ISDN line and get a flat rate ISDN package, you can't get better pings than that, and in gaming it's all about the pings.

DSL can give lower pings than isdn. Furthermore, the extra bandwidth that dsl provides will become more and more important over the next year or two as online games become more and more complex. There are a few games on the market now that use enough bandwidth to really require a broadband connection to get the most out of them. Things arent going to reverse or stagnate.

nahdoic

In some countries yes DSL can give betters pings, last time i checked though we're living in ireland, and it doesn't.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78314&highlight=adsl+ping

Speed is far more important than volume for on-line games.

Tazz T

It looks like 'cheaper' broadband will be here at the same time or before FRIACO, so theoretically speaking the system won't be overloaded by too many users using 56k 24/7 as many 56kers, like the gamers, will have switched to broadband - it looks very much like dsl is going to be one and half times the cost of 56k so it's likely those heavy users near upgraded exchanges will go for the broadband product.

Well, that's my 2c.

Moriarty

Esats dsl gives better pings than isdn afaik. Eircoms (at the moment) doesnt. That can change any time they decide they want it to. Ping is not the only thing that you are intrested in if you want to play well online. A stable connection with no packet loss is as important, if not more so, than a super low ping connection.