UTVip and FRIACO

mechanima

Been a little unwell past couple of days and missed the fuss but WOW!!!

Knew UTV would do it...

I don't think anybody realises what this means to somebody like me.

Most of my phone use is internet, cos the only way I am comfortable interacting with the world is in writing...the extra money makes a serious difference.

G

sceptre

Originally posted by nahdoic
Why should the average users, who use the service reasonably have to subsidise these people?

We're not having this argument in this thread. We've had it already (do a search) and I doubt that anyone will being anything new to that discussion. If you think you can, start a new thread, call it something appropriate (so that everyone (excepting me as I have to read it) not taking part can just ignore it) and argue about whether the Internet is like electricity or water there.

That's a comment for all btw - I just happened to quote nahdoic as he was the last to post.

Urban Weigl

I would like to second everything ScepticOne has been saying. Your points are exactly what I was trying to bring across.

While I have Mr. Scott Taunton's attention, I would like to propose something: You need to bring in FRIACO at a price point that is as low as possible, otherwise you will only attract moderate and heavy users. On the other hand, if you bring it in at a low price point will mean losing a lot of money on some customers (probably). For a huge company like Freeserve in the UK, that doesn't matter, not to mention that ports cost a lot less there.

So my idea would be to come in with a FRIACO product for 24.99 euros a month (19.99 would be ideal, but that may not be possible). HOWEVER, in the terms of service you could reserve the right to move heavy users to a "Pro" version of the package, say at 39.99 euros monthly. What defines a heavy user I can not say as I do not have your cost spreadsheets. It could for instance be over 100 hours a month, though I suppose very few people would be online between 2 and 7 am, so time spent online during this time might not need to be included in that.

That way, you will get maximize the number of light and moderate users on the package (heck even my neighbour would sign up at that price!), while still catering for heavy users as well, who will be happy to pay a slightly higher price. Obviously couple this with a 15 minute timeout, though it would be nice to have a longer disconnect period such as 8 hours in order to be able to download larger files. Just an idea, but I think it may just be a very good one.

Urban Weigl

Bascially

-- Come in with FRIACO at 24.99 euros, or ideally 19.99. This will ensure that the package will be great for ANYONE who uses the Internet, no matter how much or little they use it. Customers you would not get if the package were priced higher.

-- Move heavy users up to a "Pro" version priced at for example 39.99 euros as per your terms of service. This will cater for heavy users while keeping the price of the basic package down.

SkepticOne

It appears to me that if we want something approaching unmetered access on PSTN for the widest group of people there are challanges for both the ISP (hopefully UTV) and IOFFL.

The nature of PSTN makes it difficult to offer unmetered access. In reality, there is a meter running all the time. The key for the ISP is not letting it be a burden for the vast bulk of the people using the service. Unfortunately, most ISPs offering flat rate have to deal with certain users who may make it difficult for others to get online during peak periods. These users would be the ones running automatic reconnection software even when they are not at the computer, for example.

What this may mean is the ISP not publishing the exact criteria for identifying these users. It may not be that they simply count the number of hours people use online and kick off the top 5%, they might look at the usage logs in a more sophisticated way.

The ISP may choose not to publish these criteria because doing so might result in people modifying their behavior so that they push up against them.

Let us say that it got out that Freeserve in the UK, kicked people off who used, for example, 200 hours a month. People who then heard of this and were using less, might use this as a licence to increase their monthly usage to just under 200 hours.

The reaction on this forum might be "but thats ok, they are within the 200 hour limit". But that would be overlooking the fact that this 200 hours is not the acceptable average for the ISP but rather the extreme upper limit used to identify extreme users. If a significant number of individuals treated this as the norm, then that limit would have to be lowered. It is only 200 hours (just a hypothetical example) the number is not published and only a handfull would approach this number. If Freeserve were to make public a number of acceptable hours, that number would have to be much lower than what it would be if they kept it secret. The other consequence of making it public is that the service would no longer be 'flat rate'; it would be a prepaid discount scheme. This would fundamentally change the nature of the product.

So therefore, if we want flat rate along the lines of the UK (where it has been very successful) we need to hand over trust to the ISP. Are we prepared to do this? I would hope so. This is our challange. What it would mean is that if UTV, in order to provide flat rate to the maximum number of people, had to remove someone from the service, we would agree to accept this decision on the basis that they are an honerable company even if they did not tell us the exact reason for doing so.

UTV are very aware of the challanges on their side as they have indicated in their post. The FRIACO rate, although cheap by European standards, is not as cheap as in the UK. In addition there are infrastructure and backhaul costs. Still, it could be a lot worse.

There are two ways of dealing with this. Either

a) they bring out a varient of the existing UTVip product with a set number of hours for a set price catering to heavy users mainly (perhaps with smaller number of hours for lighter users). This would still be an improvement as the distinction between day and evening would be gone.

or;

b) they attract in as many users as possible including light users. This second approach (the one taken by Freeserve) would mean that there is more capacity to go around generally. By not publishing upfront limits, people would be encouraged to behave responsibly whilst at the same time, those asked to leave (hopefully after warnings) would be limited to a small number. This will mean ordering substantial capacity in advance and running a national advertising campaign emphasising the benefits of flat rate internet access. (this might be in addition to a) above)

I'm aware that UTV will have fully considered the ramifications of both approaches.

What we need to is realise that if we want true flat rate, we are paying for access to a finite shared resource. This means behaving responsibly, e.g., scheduling downloads overnight, disconnecting when not attending the computer, etc. It may mean respecting UTVs right to disconnect those it feels (for whatever reason) it can't support.

I think this is worth it if we are going to remove clock watching from Irish internet access.

Urban Weigl

I did not mean to necessarily imply that whatever would constitute a "very heavy" user should be published. The way I see it is that one option would be to roll out a FRIACO package at a very low starting price (i.e. around 20 euros), thus attracing EVERYONE including just casual Internet users. At the same time implement a clause in the terms of service that would allow UTV to move the user up to a "Pro" type package which can accomodate more hours of usage, priced at for example 40 euros. Obviously only very heavy users would be moved to that package, though what constitutes such use would be defined by UTV.

Basically how I see this working is that once someone becomes a "very heavy" user, they would be sent a letter reading something along the lines of "Dear Sir, Due to your extremely heavy use of this service we are unfortunately no longer able to accomodate you on our standard package, and are moving you to our Pro package priced at X amount. However if you wish to cancel your service with us, please return and sign the...".

Again it's just an idea that I think may work very well, but at the end of the day the decision is up to UTV, who have a lot more facts on the issue that are not available to me and only they can know.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
I did not mean to necessarily imply that whatever would constitute a "very heavy" user should be published.

That was just an additional point I wanted to make. Some people may want to know exactly how many hours they can get in advance and this may not be consistant with flat rate over PSTN.

Slutmonkey57b

Well, I trust them enough to let them shoot whoever they want for over-use of the service.

The only other person I'd give free-reign killing priviliges to is Me. And the bloke that named the daisycutter.

LoBo

well said SkepticOne

Malcolm

As can be seen from the previous selection of posts there is a hundred and one things to consider when defining a FRIACO product. We are currently busy developing the product and will consider views expressed on the boards during the process in order to offer the best product in the market. In the meantime bear with us and be assured that even if we do not answer every post that they are being read. We will let you know the full details of our product as soon as they are available.

Webmonkey

Thats Nice, Thanx m8

seamus

Yeah, I have to say, that as far as companies go, and not just ISPs or telcos - all companies (in Ireland) - UTV/ip have a fantastic attitude towards customers. It may be two-way - i.e. we get info from them and they get popularity from us - but even so, it's a very rare thing for us to see companies who are willing to engage the customer face-to-face (the place where I work, dept. heads won't even return colleagues queries :rolleyes: ) and listen directly to the customer, as opposed to just relying on market research and ignoring actual suggestions and comments from individual comments.

God damm Paddy's day, makin me drink :-)

I would actually plead (if I wasn't so vain ) with UTVip to take DeVore's offer of a free interaction board for a few months.

Praetorian

/me wonders if UTV had to pay for this thread.

Dangger

Having been away for the last few days, (and hence a little slow off the mark) I can safely say the IOFFL can cross one objective of the list come June. This is great news!

Come the summer it looks like IOFFL will have to come to a decision about the objectives it should be pushing for in the future. Perhaps its time to begin drawing up new ones. Its taken too long to get to here, but I'm greatful we made it, eventually.

David Long

ElNino

UTV Internet will soon introduce a flat rate internet service for its Irish customers. Available from June, this will be the first offering of its kind in Ireland.

Pricing for the product is still being finalised, but the company says its existing UTVip customers and new subscribers who sign up before June 1 will pay no more for the new product than they do for their existing service.

Scott Taunton, UTV Internet managing director, said, 'We are absolutely delighted to announce that we have signed a major telecom contract which enables us to introduce the first ever flat rate internet service in Ireland.

http://www.onbusiness.ie/2003/0319/utv.html

LFCFan

First Ever? Does this mean that they'll be in there before €ircon? Do €ircon enjoy being behind it's competitors?

dahamsta

Do €ircon enjoy being behind it's competitors?

So... many... responses... must... resist...

LFCFan

it was a retorical question anyway so don't worry yourself with the many responses you could muster

MDR

Probabily slightily inaccurate I should imagine that Esat will probabily introduce something similar themselves as well. Eircom probabily won't bothering offering a deal until a few months afterwards, they will wait and see what the market is like after the release of the UTV/Esat deal, and then make a decision about launching their own product.

They really don't want flat-rate and then more they can do to dis-courage it (ie by not offering a deal of their own) the better. Who knows maybe someone with market-savy will grad hold of the reins at Eircom, put out a severly cut price deal in an attempt to oust competition (in fine Ryansir style) ... I think its quite unlikely though.

dahamsta

Eircom probabily won't bothering offering a deal until a few months afterwards, they will wait and see what the market is like after the release of the UTV/Esat deal, and then make a decision about launching their own product.

I'm not so sure. Certainly they don't want to see a flat-rate product, however there has to be a watershed for them, and I would imagine that the "half-price" retail DSL announcement was the first step towards that. They may not like the idea of flat-rate, but they will have to embrace it or they'll end up like BT, desperately scrambling to get their customers back. BT got many of them back, but they had to fight hard for it. Eircom would be absolutely idiotic to make the same mistake. More than usual anyway.

I'd love to know how many have abandoned Eircom for UTV and EsatBT since the partial flat-rate product was introduced. DO we have any figures for that?

adam

LFCFan

Originally posted by dahamsta
BT got many of them back, but they had to fight hard for it. Eircom would be absolutely idiotic to make the same mistake.

I'd doubt €ircon would be as good getting customers back as BT. They're not exactly known for their great incentives.

dahamsta

I'd doubt €ircon would be as good getting customers back as BT. They're not exactly known for their great incentives.

Neither were BT though. BT had to go through a massive tranformation, a process that's still taking place now. Eircom will have to do the same. It's sink or swim time.

adam

LFCFan

Originally posted by dahamsta
Eircom will have to do the same. It's sink or swim time

Or do their usual and thread water for a few more years as our faltering economy sinks. I just can't see €ircon changing their ways.

dahamsta

Or do their usual and thread water for a few more years as our faltering economy sinks. I just can't see €ircon changing their ways.

They don't have an option though LFCFan, it's mandatory. That was my point.

adam

bk

Originally posted by LFCFan
I'd doubt €ircon would be as good getting customers back as BT. They're not exactly known for their great incentives.

Or they could just lie.

I'm on Esat CPS and NoLimits and I had Eircom ring today trying to get me to go back to them.

They claimed that they are cheaper then Esat now, I of course had done my homework and had a pintout of the prices next to the phone (I was expecting they would call), it turns out that they are only sligthly cheaper on one or two rates *IF* you are on Options Gold.

ihatemushrooms

With all due respect UTV is in not true to say that you are just dealing directly with the 2nd largest telco, why don`t we just deal direct with them?

Scott Taunton

We are continuing to look at the exact details of our FRIACO offering but have yet to see anything posted that is not broadly in line with our view of the likely product.

We will be taking a view on acceptable use which is likely to be in line with Freeserve/AOL in the UK who have some sort of upper limit but recognise the ambition for the product to represent "flat-rate" but not "always on". We will obviously continue to update you as the model progresses pre-launch.

One issue that has been raised in the past and which we have tried to address is that of certain rates on our CPS service. As CPS will be bundled with our FRIACO offering, we want to be in a position to offer genuine savings to our users on the standard Eircom per minute charges, across the board. Up until now, we have offered a saving of 25% on Eircom's Local, National and International standard rates but have been unable to discount mobile rates.

In order to address this imbalance, from 1 April, all of our rates for Irish mobile calls will be reduced by 5%. This will be for all current and future users of the service and will be incorporated into our FRIACO offering.

We will be issuing a press release to this effect later today. Hopefully this will assist in further differentiating our service from others in the marketplace.

Kind regards

Scott Taunton
Managing Director
UTV Internet

bk

Hi Scott,

It is great to see that UTV is still innovating and bringing real competition to the Irish market.

I hope UTV has plans for DSL in the Republic, I would love to give UTV my business when I move to broadband, however I realise it may be too early for you to say anything about this yet.

One question you could answer for me, with your CPS telephone service, is Northern Ireland charged at National rates or UK rates?

I realise this wouldn't matter for most people, but I share a house with a person from Northern Ireland and Esat charge Northern Ireland at national rates, thus saving this person lots of money when phoning home and therefore I can't change at the moment for this reason.

Thanks,
Brian

DeVore

Originally posted by Praetorian
/me wonders if UTV had to pay for this thread.

No they did not. We never ever sell thread space out side the Commercial Interaction Boards. Ever.

DeV.

DeVore

Originally posted by SkepticOne
It appears to me that if we want something approaching unmetered access on PSTN for the widest group of people there are challanges for both the ISP (hopefully UTV) and IOFFL.

The nature of PSTN makes it difficult to offer unmetered access. In reality, there is a meter running all the time. The key for the ISP is not letting it be a burden for the vast bulk of the people using the service. Unfortunately, most ISPs offering flat rate have to deal with certain users who may make it difficult for others to get online during peak periods. These users would be the ones running automatic reconnection software even when they are not at the computer, for example.

What this may mean is the ISP not publishing the exact criteria for identifying these users. It may not be that they simply count the number of hours people use online and kick off the top 5%, they might look at the usage logs in a more sophisticated way.

The ISP may choose not to publish these criteria because doing so might result in people modifying their behavior so that they push up against them.

Let us say that it got out that Freeserve in the UK, kicked people off who used, for example, 200 hours a month. People who then heard of this and were using less, might use this as a licence to increase their monthly usage to just under 200 hours.

The reaction on this forum might be "but thats ok, they are within the 200 hour limit". But that would be overlooking the fact that this 200 hours is not the acceptable average for the ISP but rather the extreme upper limit used to identify extreme users. If a significant number of individuals treated this as the norm, then that limit would have to be lowered. It is only 200 hours (just a hypothetical example) the number is not published and only a handfull would approach this number. If Freeserve were to make public a number of acceptable hours, that number would have to be much lower than what it would be if they kept it secret. The other consequence of making it public is that the service would no longer be 'flat rate'; it would be a prepaid discount scheme. This would fundamentally change the nature of the product.

So therefore, if we want flat rate along the lines of the UK (where it has been very successful) we need to hand over trust to the ISP. Are we prepared to do this? I would hope so. This is our challange. What it would mean is that if UTV, in order to provide flat rate to the maximum number of people, had to remove someone from the service, we would agree to accept this decision on the basis that they are an honerable company even if they did not tell us the exact reason for doing so.

UTV are very aware of the challanges on their side as they have indicated in their post. The FRIACO rate, although cheap by European standards, is not as cheap as in the UK. In addition there are infrastructure and backhaul costs. Still, it could be a lot worse.

There are two ways of dealing with this. Either

a) they bring out a varient of the existing UTVip product with a set number of hours for a set price catering to heavy users mainly (perhaps with smaller number of hours for lighter users). This would still be an improvement as the distinction between day and evening would be gone.

or;

b) they attract in as many users as possible including light users. This second approach (the one taken by Freeserve) would mean that there is more capacity to go around generally. By not publishing upfront limits, people would be encouraged to behave responsibly whilst at the same time, those asked to leave (hopefully after warnings) would be limited to a small number. This will mean ordering substantial capacity in advance and running a national advertising campaign emphasising the benefits of flat rate internet access. (this might be in addition to a) above)

I'm aware that UTV will have fully considered the ramifications of both approaches.

What we need to is realise that if we want true flat rate, we are paying for access to a finite shared resource. This means behaving responsibly, e.g., scheduling downloads overnight, disconnecting when not attending the computer, etc. It may mean respecting UTVs right to disconnect those it feels (for whatever reason) it can't support.

I think this is worth it if we are going to remove clock watching from Irish internet access.

This is one of the best and most well-thought-out posts I have ever seen in 5 years on Boards.

Nail. Head. *thump*

Its a fascinating topic and one I hope to expand on in time.

Why shouldnt IOFFL become the trusted party? Or this community here? "Fascinating Captain"

DeV.