So then Bertie what is the story with Shannon now......

gandalf

So now the US & UK (the Axis of Diesel) have decided to go it alone on their little crusade what decision will our Jelly backboned Taoiseach make. It appears from the murmurings in Washington last week that he will turn a blind eye and let Shannon be used no matter what.

So what can we do. Well at the moment I am emailing all the TD's in my constituency asking them for their positions. Here is the letter that I am using.

Dear ,

As a constituent of Dublin South and given that the US & UK are now going to go ahead with a attack on Iraq I wish to confirm that you will be supporting the withdrawal of the use of Shannon Airport and Irish Airspace for US Military Aircraft.

I await your reply with baited breathe.

Yours,

XXXXXXXX

I will be following this up with a fax to them tomorrow with the same message as experience has taught me that TD's sometimes don't even know what a email is. If you feel the same way that I do about the use of Shannon I suggest you so the same over the next few days.

You can get the relevant details of your local TD's from http://www.gov.ie/oireachtas/frame.htm and most of them have their email addresses and fax numbers on the various party websites.

Gandalf.

davelerave

it's already decided long ago they can use it

gandalf

Well Dave it doesn't stop us from making our representatives lives a misery now does it. Basically if they don't respond to my emails and faxes I will call them, if they fob me off again I will call up to them and have a face to face chat.

Gandalf.

seamus

Originally posted by davelerave
it's already decided long ago they can use it

But we all know that our politicians are far more concerned with keeping their job then with actually doing their job. The more people that tell Bertie that Shannon is not to be used, the more likely he is to listen to us.

davelerave

Originally posted by seamus
But we all know that our politicians are far more concerned with keeping their job then with actually doing their job. The more people that tell Bertie that Shannon is not to be used, the more likely he is to listen to us.

good point ,i think he should explain his justification for use of shannon the same way blair and bush have had to make their case to their own people ,i'm sure there'll be the usual dail debate and slanging match the government will have to say that 1441 allows for war 'in extremis' even though they would have preferred a 2nd resolution and bertie will probably mutter about not upsetting the 'apple tart too much',at the end of the day it would be a brave or maybe foolish government that would take a stand .fine gael would do the same even if they start complaining now

dahamsta

I don't like to be pedantic on important issues like this, but I find that things like spelling and grammer can be critical in in "official" correspondence. So anyway, it should be:

I await your reply with bated breath.

On an even more pedantic note, the last three words probably don't serve any purpose, bar possibly annoying the TD.

Sorry.

adam

gandalf

Whoops ah well too late Adam (bloody MS Word spellchecker!!!)

As for annoying TD's that letter is nothing compared to me turning up at their offices and giving them a piece of my mind (and you have met me Adam so you already know I'm not the shy retiring type).

Gandalf.

davelerave

Originally posted by dahamsta
I don't like to be pedantic on important issues like this, but I find that things like spelling and grammer can be critical in in "official" correspondence. So anyway, it should be:

I await your reply with bated breath.

On an even more pedantic note, the last three words probably don't serve any purpose, bar possibly annoying the TD.

Sorry.

adam

i was also going to comment ,you could rephrase you email they may dismiss you as a crank

Éomer of Rohan

Or each of you could help me and my comrades by protesting on Day X the day after war begins. Protests are to begin at 12.30 in the afternoon. Tell Bertie and Blair and Bush NOT IN MY NAME!

Manach

Whilst I would be supporting this upcoming war, reactionary to the core that I am, I also believe firmly in our policy of neutrality. Wrong or right, during WWII DeValera kept this as a policy, favouring neither side.
We should either get a vote to formally end neutrality and enter an alliance with US/UK or else reaffirm it. Till then Shannon sh'd not be in use by a country at war, even one as beign as America.

BTW, is there a way of publicly supporting the war, like walk-ins at work or wearing red/white/blue ribbons?

Éomer of Rohan

BTW, is there a way of publicly supporting the war, like walk-ins at work or wearing red/white/blue ribbons?

If you wish to get mugged LOL.

Alternatively you could volunteer for the British Territorials and go away off to fight. I am not saying I hope all pro war supporters do that of course. In no way. Nope.

dahamsta

As for annoying TD's that letter is nothing compared to me turning up at their offices and giving them a piece of my mind

Well, some might say that reasoned debate is nearly always more effective than disordered ranting. Not me, obviously. Other people. Teactaí Dála probably say it quite a lot, but try as I might, I can find little evidence of it being put into practice.

(and you have met me Adam so you already know I'm not the shy retiring type).

Ah no, I remember you as the shy, retiring type gandalf. I remember us all holding you down and shoving a goose in your face, but nothing we tried could get you to say BOO to it.

adam

davelerave

Originally posted by gandalf
So now the US & UK (the Axis of Diesel) have decided to go it alone on their little crusade what decision will our Jelly backboned Taoiseach make. It appears from the murmurings in Washington last week that he will turn a blind eye and let Shannon be used no matter what.

So what can we do. Well at the moment I am emailing all the TD's in my constituency asking them for their positions. Here is the letter that I am using.



I will be following this up with a fax to them tomorrow with the same message as experience has taught me that TD's sometimes don't even know what a email is. If you feel the same way that I do about the use of Shannon I suggest you so the same over the next few days.

You can get the relevant details of your local TD's from http://www.gov.ie/oireachtas/frame.htm and most of them have their email addresses and fax numbers on the various party websites.

Gandalf.

i respect your views and your right to protest it's healthy and neccessary esp. now but i also understand the government decision to allow use of shannon,they could take a moral stand if they felt it was right to do so but they have decided that it's in our best interests to co-operate with the US notwithstanding doubts about the justification for war now

gandalf

So basically your saying its ok to buy our silence and co-operation then.

Heres a quote from Albert Einstein that sums up my feelings at the moment

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."

I believe this misadventure in the middle east is evil and I am prepared to let people know that. I also believe that when this crusade starts we in Ireland will have blood on our hands because we let the US military machine utilise our facilities.

Gandalf.

Frank Grimes

I've just sent off a mail to my local TD for what it's worth.
Hopefully I'll get a response of some sort.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by davelerave
i respect your views and your right to protest it's healthy and neccessary esp. now but i also understand the government decision to allow use of shannon,they could take a moral stand if they felt it was right to do so but they have decided that it's in our best interests to co-operate with the US notwithstanding doubts about the justification for war now

I would be more of the opinion that they've decided it's in their own best interests, rather than listening to the opinion of the majority of the general public.

colster

I think the question of Shannon is a non-issue now.
The US has already amassed it's troops in the Gulf. The war will not last long. I would not be surprised if it was over in a matter of days rather than weeks.
In that scenario the question of the use of Shannon is now meaningless.
Not allowing the US to use Shannon now would not be about massing troops in the Gulf.
Shannon will more than likely be used to bring troops and casualties home.
How can we object to that?
Also Shannon will also be used to transport aid and humanitarian supplies to Iraq.
How can we object to that?

The use of Shannon is not the question.
The question now is whether you support this war or not.

Originally posted by gandalf

I believe this misadventure in the middle east is evil and I am prepared to let people know that. I also believe that when this crusade starts we in Ireland will have blood on our hands because we let the US military machine utilise our facilities.

Gandalf. [/B]

I understand your mis-givings on this, Gandalf,but I don't agree that, what is about to happen is Evil.
I'm reserving judgement calmly untill after this is over.
mm

Samson

Just heard on the news;
Dail is being recalled for Thursday morning.

gandalf

Well colster the symbolic withdrawal of Shannon will send a message to the US that we do not support the action they are taking.

As a country that has close ties with the US it is our responsibility to tell them when they are making a serious error of judgement.

Gandalf.

Johnmb

The use of Shannon is not the question.

The use of Shannon is the question. Do the Irish people send a message that it is okay for the US to break international law, and to break the Charter of the UN, or do we tell them that it is not okay, and while we can't do much to stop them we certainly are not going to help them. I choose the latter, and I think the vast majority of Irish people agree with me, given the various protests and opinion polls, and discussions with people I know. As for the question of do I support this war? No I don't, it breaks international law to serve the agenda of oil barons and weapons dealers. It is not about democracy, they have already confirmed that, it is not about disarmament either as the stopped that process in its tracks. They have their own personal agendas, and any war started in such a way should not be supported.

scojones

Originally posted by colster
The war will not last long. I would not be surprised if it was over in a matter of days rather than weeks.

Sorry, you really don't think this war will last long? The only way I can see it not lasting long is if Saddam gives up. I'm sorry I just can't see that happening.

colster

Originally posted by gandalf
Well colster the symbolic withdrawal of Shannon will send a message to the US that we do not support the action they are taking.

As a country that has close ties with the US it is our responsibility to tell them when they are making a serious error of judgement.

Gandalf.

Gandalf we have supported them. We allowed them to use Shannon to amass troops in the Gulf.
As far as I can see that matter is closed.
As a measure of symbolism of objection to this war I think it would be both ineffective and counter-productive to now allow the use of Shannon.
If you object this action I would contend that you concentrate on the US/UK governments rather than our own.

gandalf

colster it is not a closed situation. The forces out in the Gulf will need re-suppling and re-enforcements. We can withdraw the use of Shannon now and send them a strong message that we, IRELAND object to their bloody crusade.

As for protesting to foreign governments they won't take any notice of us, we don't elect them colster.

Its time to put some real pressure on our so called representatives and get them off the comfort zone on the fence.

Gandalf.

Hobbes

Contact details if you want to complain/support.

TAOISEACH'S PRIVATE OFFICE
e-mail: taoiseach@taoiseach.gov.ie

Phone: 01-6194020 / 4021 / 4043

Fax: 01-6764048

I'd like to see a better worded version of yours Gandalf and I'll send one off too (either way). I don't want to be dismissed as a crank and tell him in no uncertain terms he's not acting in my intrests.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by colster
Shannon will more than likely be used to bring troops and casualties home.

What are they using it for at the moment then?

The use of Shannon is not the question.

It is for me, for people posting to this thread and for a great deal of people in this country. Why shouldn't the government be questioned over this?

gandalf

Interesting response from Seamus Brennen,

Dear Paul,

Many thanks for your message.

I understand your concern, but I will not speculate on the decision of the Government regarding the use of Shannon in the event of an escalation of the Iraqi situation. Following the September 11 atrocity, the Government acted on the Air Navigation (Foreign Military Aircraft) Order which allows overflights or landings to countries whose forces are engaged in bringing to justice those who carried out or assisted in the dreadful events. This offer was made in the context of UN Security Council Resolution 1368 which classified the September 11 attacks as a threat to international peace and security, and called on all states to work together to bring to justice the perpetrators, organisers and sponsors of the attacks. The role of Iraq in world terror should not be underestimated.

The present situation is one which will be monitored and responded to in the appropriate way by your elected Government. It is the job of Government to make decisions having regard to all the facts which are available, but which may not always be readily accepted by some people. People will agree with decisions, but it is not possible to have unanimous endorsement on all issues. The Taoiseach, as the democratically elected leader of this country, has stated very clearly that if Ireland were to withdraw facilities, we would be the only country so doing, and that it would not be in Ireland's strategic interest. Shannon continued to facilitate US planes during previous military operations in Vietnam and Kosovo, and Ireland's military neutrality was not compromised.

I hope this helps to explain the present position, but I want to stress that no final decision will be made ahead of any escalation in the present situation.

With best wishes.

Basically they are saying we can't rock the boat, that Berties
knows whats best :rolleyes:

Gandalf.

Frank Grimes

...but which may not always be readily accepted by some people...

I like that bit, whatever plot of sand they've been sticking their heads in lately mustn't be getting the opinion polls etc. that I've been reading.

gandalf

Originally posted by Hobbes

I'd like to see a better worded version of yours Gandalf and I'll send one off too (either way). I don't want to be dismissed as a crank and tell him in no uncertain terms he's not acting in my intrests.

Well your welcome to write your own. I just fired mine up to get people thinking. TBH I have got 2 responses already from 5 mails sent so it seems to be working. I don't expect Seamus Brennen to respond to the follow up I have sent to him where I haven't minced my words. (I'm not slapping it up here for Adam to damage my ego again!)

Gandalf.

colster

Originally posted by gandalf
colster it is not a closed situation. The forces out in the Gulf will need re-suppling and re-enforcements. We can withdraw the use of Shannon now and send them a strong message that we, IRELAND object to their bloody crusade.

As for protesting to foreign governments they won't take any notice of us, we don't elect them colster.

Its time to put some real pressure on our so called representatives and get them off the comfort zone on the fence.

Gandalf.

Gandalf putting pressure on our government will achieve what exactly.
Will it achieve the withdrawal of US troops from the Gulf?
I don't think so.
If the Irish people are seriously against this war then lets forget the 'symbolic gestures' and apply some real pressure such as boycotting US/UK goods and refusing to work for US/UK companies.
If we all refused to eat in Mac Donalds, drink Coca Coll and
If all Irish people who work for UK or US companies went on strike then perhaps that would send a more concrete message to those people who actually have the power to stop the action.
I think this opposition to the use of Shannon is both half-assed and useless.
If we get the government to tell the Yanks that they can't use it then we'll all slap ourselves on the back and say our work is done.

Wook

Originally posted by gandalf
(continue)As a country that has close ties with the US it is our responsibility to tell them when they are making a serious error of judgement.
Gandalf.

what makes it closer then EU ? The amount of irish living in the States ? or the companies that come here and profit from the easy tax-laws ? EU did rebuild or rather helped a lot and allowed the Irish to have a decent healthy economy with loads of cash aside and nothing of inflation...etc etc etc(ahurm)