ho hum France will help after all

yankinlk

Guess that was missed by all you war-watchers out there, thought someone else would have posted this by now.

Its been reported that France will now help the US/UK Forces If Saddam's forces use chemical/bio weapons on the advancing forces. The Word from the media-war is that Saddam has armed some troops (i think sky even named the city last night) with checmical weapon shells and has given them the right to use them at will, wether they are commanded to or not.

Whats my point? I want the anti-war brigade to consider for just a second, the possibility that Bush is gonna end up correct in this one all along.

Hobbes

Excuse me.. but how the fuk can Bush be shown to be right?

His actions are what removed the weapons inspectors from the country before they could finish.

Tell me this, would you of preferred to have found the weapons through the inspectors or by watching US soliders and innocent civilians die on TV?

The Surgeon

Saddam has armed some troops ... with checmical weapon shells and has given them the right to use them at will, wether they are commanded to or not... Whats my point? I want the anti-war brigade to consider for just a second, the possibility that Bush is gonna end up correct in this one all along.


Chemical weapons shells, eh? Would these be similar to the shells tipped with depleted uranium which US troops used in the last Gulf War? Apparently the land around Basra is still contaminated with radiation thanks to those little babies. Or are they similar to the WMD which the US has said it will use on Iraq if Saddam uses the ones he supposedly has himself?

Hobbes

They had that on Sky News. So far it's an unconfirmed report from the US.

Would these be similar to the shells tipped with depleted uranium which US troops used in the last Gulf War?

Only anti-Americans would complain that the US is going to be using DU shells in this war.

The Surgeon

It was on another news channel as well that the US may use the uranium tipped shells again. I mean, can't they do enough damage without tipping their arrows with poison? Surely they have enough firepower to blow the Iraqi army to Mars anyway?!?

mike65

Originally posted by yankinlk
Guess that was missed by all you war-watchers out there, thought someone else would have posted this by now.

Its been reported that France will now help the US/UK Forces If Saddam's forces use chemical/bio weapons on the advancing forces.

Been there done that...!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87543&perpage=30&pagenumber=1

You'll be pleased to hear the French have issed a statement saying that if Saddam uses WMD they'll come on-side!
As Ari Fleisher said a little while ago on TV -"Thats interesting, and I hope it does'nt come to that"

Mike.

dahamsta

Originally posted by Hobbes
Only anti-Americans would complain that the US is going to be using DU shells in this war.

I don't understand this. Is is supposed to be humour or serious? What does it mean?

adam

yankinlk

Originally posted by Hobbes
Excuse me.. but how the fuk can Bush be shown to be right?

His actions are what removed the weapons inspectors from the country before they could finish.

he can be shown to be right in many ways...use your imagination a little. I dont agree with this war, didnt vote for Bush but I can admit when theres another point of view that might be right beside my own.

12 years to wait for inspections isnt long enough in your opinion, not mine.

Sand

I was watching the news there and I basically had a good laugh at the Security council meeting - now having completely removed itself from the decision making and influence its desperately scrambling for influence in post-war Iraq, France most hilariously with their representitive claiming only it had the right to decide what should happen to post war Iraq.

Now I know Im a cynic in many ways, but Ive really got to hand it to the French - having done their best to block the liberation of Iraq because of their links with the Iraqi regime theyre now trying to profit out of the war by demanding influence after its won.

Whilst I always expected a quick allied victory and the reconstruction of Iraq into a democratic state would completely undermine the position of the those opposing the liberation on the Security Council, I didnt expect them to come in from the cold quite as soon as the Iraqi defectors, 17 and counting according to the US army before the war even begins.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Hobbes

Originally posted by yankinlk
he can be shown to be right in many ways...use your imagination a little. I dont agree with this war, didnt vote for Bush but I can admit when theres another point of view that might be right beside my own.

12 years to wait for inspections isnt long enough in your opinion, not mine.

Yes if Saddam has WMD and uses them to kill innocent people, he will be shown to be right. Whoop de doo. I'm so glad he will be able to show himself right at the cost of so many lives.

As for 12 years. The US/UK have been bombing the **** out of Iraq for that time on a near daily basis, add to that sanctions on his country and only being left in power because the US was scared of what may replace him is why it took so long.

If everyone waited 12 years, what's a few more months to let the inspectors finish thier job?

Now I know Im a cynic in many ways, but Ive really got to hand it to the French - having done their best to block the liberation of Iraq because of their links with the Iraqi regime theyre now trying to profit out of the war by demanding influence after its won.

Sound Cynical to me. Despite Frances intrests they did state before all this they would support a UN backed war. As for everyone blaming France, might want to go look at how many countries on the security council actually backed the war. US got 30 countries with them? Wow that's **** all in UN standards.

As good a reconstruction of Iraq as they did in Afghanistan?

Now Dave, don't worry about that, as the warlords control most if not all of Afganistan, and if he is that strapped for cash he can just get some money off the Opium farmers who had another bumper crop this season.

yankinlk

now THAT was a "fair and balanced" reply...gawd i hate fox news

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by Hobbes
Excuse me.. but how the fuk can Bush be shown to be right?

Probably when we see live-feed pictures of millions of Iraqi civilians cheering Saddam's overthrow and hailing US troops as liberators. And when democracy and freedom is restored to the people of that country subsequent to the current Ba'ath party dictatorship.

The Surgeon

Don't you just love this meta language? It's always the same old words that get posted to the mast when a country is about to topple a soveriegn state by a mightly onslaught of force:

liberation
freedom
democracy

Look, don't get me wrong guys: I don't have a good word in my being for Saddam Hussein but it sickens me to the core to see people try to cloak self-interest with the mantel of some kind of moral crusade. The real motivations of the US have been spelt out ad infinitum by the so called 'anti-amercian' camp and the 'anti-war' camp so I'm not going to re-hash them here. But using words like these, which themselves are more ideals than genuine ways of life anyway, to justify choosing war over diplomacy, to justify killing innocent civilians, to justify jeopardising the stability of the Middle East which is already on a knife edge and to justify worsening the global terrorist threat, I find offensive. These words are not the ultimate goal of the entire world, despite what Americans have been brainwashed to believe. And by the way, the whole world doesn't want to eat peanut butter sandwiches either (just ask the Afghan peasants who were asked to eat them and be grateful for American liberation).

pro_gnostic_8

Yes, I've long been aware that the Left abhors and is sickened- to-the-core by any juxtaposition of the words "democracy" and "freedom" in any sentence with the word "America"

Democracy and Freedom are definitely only ideals in Stalinist and Islamofascist states so beloved by the Left but they are embedded principles in the American and Western way of life. You have the freedom of persecution to express your views and to protest which is a luxury not permitted to the peoples of Iraq.

AFAIK, diplomacy has been tried for the last 12 years without success with regard to Saffam Hussein.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Probably when we see live-feed pictures of millions of Iraqi civilians cheering Saddam's overthrow and hailing US troops as liberators. And when democracy and freedom is restored to the people of that country subsequent to the current Ba'ath party dictatorship.

I’ve no doubt that the pictures of millions of Iraqi civilians cheering Saddam's overthrow will be far more convincing than pictures of millions of Iraqi civilians cheering Saddam's reign.

Democracy and freedom? No doubt.

I envy your innocence pro_gnostic_8.

The Surgeon

Yes, I've long been aware that the Left abhors and is sickened- to-the-core by any juxtaposition of the words "democracy" and "freedom" in any sentence with the word "America"

Maybe that's because the ideals of freedom and democracy have been bastardised by modern America. You really value a democracy that elects a president who doesn't get voted in by the majority? And you really believe that you are free when you swallow all the propaganda slopped out by Fox News and Ari Fleischer?

Democracy and Freedom are definitely only ideals in Stalinist and Islamofascist states so beloved by the Left but they are embedded principles in the American and Western way of life. You have the freedom of persecution to express your views and to protest which is a luxury not permitted to the peoples of Iraq.

You're absolutely right. We do have the luxury to express our views and it is a precious right, no question about it. And of course we are lucky to live in democratic regimes rather than totalitarian ones. I'm extremely glad I wasn't born in 1930's Germany or 1950's USSR or in 2003 Iraq. But what concerns me is that countries who profess themselves to be democracies are slowly becoming totalitarian, but in such a subtle way that people can't even see it happening.

And isn't it also a fundamental principle of democracy that alternative opinions are valued and not ignored? What annoys me is nations like America who portray themselves as defenders of free speech and democracy ignore the legitimate arguments of other nations (such as China, Russia, Germany as well as the current focus of bile, France) and act almost unilaterally. And don't tell me that Australia and Britain are any better because these governments are also ignoring the opinions of large portions of their populations. It's not enough to preach democracy, you have to truly believe in it and practise it as well.

AFAIK, diplomacy has been tried for the last 12 years without success with regard to Saffam Hussein.

I hardly call trade embargos, medical sanctions and continuous bombing sorties diplomacy.

DriftingRain

And you really believe that you are free when you swallow all the propaganda slopped out by Fox News and Ari Fleischer?

Do you live in america? I do. I am scared to death what this war is going to bring about. I am scared for my self and my family. Many americans think Ari Fleischer is an idiot. One of those is me! But Yes I eat what I want, Say what I want, Dress how I want, Vote for who I want, Choose my own job and have sex with who I want. And THAT is freedom. Many U.S. are against this war. So please don't bash us as a whole! As for France, I feel sorry for them, and I have not quite got them figured out. I hope they are not in it for the wrong reasons if they want to stay out of it than they should stay out of it for good?

yankinlk

http://www.brain-terminal.com/articles/video/peace-protest.html

very funny video/interview with war protestors in NY - worth a download

lili

Originally posted by DriftingRain
Do you live in america? I do. I am scared to death what this war is going to bring about. I am scared for my self and my family. Many americans think Ari Fleischer is an idiot. One of those is me! But Yes I eat what I want, Say what I want, Dress how I want, Vote for who I want, Choose my own job and have sex with who I want. And THAT is freedom. Many U.S. are against this war. So please don't bash us as a whole! As for France, I feel sorry for them, and I have not quite got them figured out. I hope they are not in it for the wrong reasons if they want to stay out of it than they should stay out of it for good?

if you feel threated in your country then you should go in bagdad, i'm sure you would risk nothing as the american's army use "chirurgical strike".

lili

sorry driftingrain, you are not the target of my comment, i'm sure you are a good person aware about what is the propaganda.

my opinion is that american people are too much under wrong information.
the bush administration has clearly used the 11 sept to justify a war against iraq.
should bush erase the iraqi territory and kill innocent people to catch one man?!
as for the after war, i don't think USA could manage alone the stability of a country with complexe political parameters.
simply cause i don't think there is real "brains' in the bush administration.

The Surgeon

Do you live in america? I do. I am scared to death what this war is going to bring about.

No I don't, but I have lived all my life in a country which has dealt with terrorism for decades. I now live in a country that may have made itself an increased target because of putting its troops on the starting line with yours. That's the nature of global terrorism: it affects almost everybody.

Look, nobody reasonable wants to see Americans get hurt. But nobody reasonable should want to see Iraqis get hurt either. And as for living in fear, Americans have to wake up to the fact that terrorists target nations for a reason. It's not good enough to feel sorry for yourself without acknowledging the fact that the US administration has brought this threat on itself and its own people.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by DriftingRain
But Yes I eat what I want, Say what I want, Dress how I want, Vote for who I want, Choose my own job and have sex with who I want. And THAT is freedom.

In fairness you eat and dress in what you can afford.

Modern economics also dictate that employers are more likely to choose you than visa versa.

You may say what you want, but may be branded as unpatriotic or un-American for your troubles.

And you can vote for whom you want assuming your vote is not removed arbitrarily. Even if it is not, its democratic value has proven to be suspect given the college electoral system.

No one is ever truly free - that is the price that we pay for law and order - but I suspect that the leash on my freedom is not as short as yours.

bonkey

Originally posted by yankinlk
Its been reported that France will now help the US/UK Forces If Saddam's forces use chemical/bio weapons on the advancing forces. The Word from the media-war is that Saddam has armed some troops (i think sky even named the city last night) with checmical weapon shells and has given them the right to use them at will, wether they are commanded to or not.

Its a scary thought. About as scary as the ability of the US to suddenly produce such good intelligence on the locations and nature of Saddam's WMDs when they have spent the last number of months showing the weapons inspectors that they didnt actually have a clue about these things.

Unless, of course, we would choose to believe that the US didnt comply with 1441 themselves, and refrained from giving all intelligence to teh weapons inspectors in order to justify their war.

Personally, I prefer to believe the more likely option - that this is part of the propaganda war...the use of which is standard US doctrine in wartime.

Whats my point? I want the anti-war brigade to consider for just a second, the possibility that Bush is gonna end up correct in this one all along.

And has the pro-war brigade considered the implications, for just a second, that Bush is gonna end up incorrect in this one all along?

The Surgeon

And has the pro-war brigade considered the implications, for just a second, that Bush is gonna end up incorrect in this one all along?

You mean that they won't find any WMD's? Oh, I'm sure they will. They'll use a handkerchief, wipe off the prints and place some under Saddam's hand as he lies dead on the floor.

I read an newspaper article the other day that reported a US general responding to a question about how concerned he was about chemical attack. He replied that US intelligence knew exactly where the sites were and would take them out during the initial aerial bombardment. So he basically suggested that the US knows exactly where these alleged weapons are. If that's the case, then why didn't they tell Mr Blix and his underlings in the first place? "Blowing the cover of sources", I know. So instead they risk turning world opinion against them and running the risk of appearing even more devious than they are when they confirm "finding" the WMD's during the course of the war. Even if they were right all along, they've acted like their own worst enemy in their handling of the whole mess.

bonkey

Originally posted by The Surgeon
[BSo he basically suggested that the US knows exactly where these alleged weapons are. If that's the case, then why didn't they tell Mr Blix and his underlings in the first place? "Blowing the cover of sources", I know. [/B]

So why didnt they refuse to sign a declaration which requested them to supply this information, or point out clearly at the time that they would not co-operate with it, so that such issues could be taken into consideration.

jc

lili

well, hard to imagine that, but if i was saddam, with the americans on the door of my country, ready to attack, i wouldn't destroy what i will need to riposte.

DriftingRain

I do understand all of your points and opinions. It was that I was tring to get across that I also think the bush administration is crazy. I was scared of all the terrorism that this is going to bring about all over the world not just in the U.S.! This war could be what the world had been dreading. I work in a hosptial and we have already been put into disaster stand-by, and that is sad!

yankinlk

Hasnt anyone checked out my link to http://www.brain-terminal.com for amusing anti-war protestor interviews in NY and California?

I suppose if this war was all about broadband instead of oil you'd be volunteering to fight.

fisty

i looked at it, hilarious.
the guy in san francisco talking bollocks is hilarious "cosmopolotan trendagraphics" or something.
Get the feeling that the guy who made it is pretty pro war though...

Bateman

Hilarious in quite a condescending way.

Although the people interviewed on Prime Time the other night were quite caricatured in their views, or at least the majority of them were. All the anti-French bollocks is sickening.