Here Come the Turks...

mike65

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/21/1047749939954.html

Deputy Prime Minister Mehmet Ali Sahin announced Ankara's intention to flex its muscle as Parliament approved a long-awaited resolution authorising troops to be sent abroad and allowing overflight rights for US fighter planes.
Parliament gave approval for several thousand troops to be sent into Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq to form a buffer to prevent a repeat of the refugee crisis that followed the 1991 Gulf War. Kurds have vowed to resist forcefully any Turkish military efforts to end Kurdish self-rule in northern Iraq or to capture vital oil-rich areas in the region.
The White House has been pressing Ankara not to fight the Kurds, fearing a bloody civil war in northern Iraq that could disrupt the fight against Saddam Hussein and complicate post-Saddam plans to restore democracy in Baghdad.
The news was met with astonishment from concerned Western diplomats, who not only questioned Ankara's legal right to cross the border but openly doubted Turkey's motives.

Thats all we need. The US admin is apparently
fuming mad at the prospect of the Turkish military crossing the border with the obvious possibilites.

Mike.

Sand

Theyre clearly mad - the Kurds dont mind the US getting Saddam off their back - but they hate the Turks, for good reason too. Why the Turks feel getting bogged down in their own personal Vietnam is a good idea is beyond me - it makes feck all sense, even as an imperialist exercise theres no hope of them being allowed to control the north, or its resources.

Éomer of Rohan

It is not unlikely that an annexation of Kurdish Iraq could precipitate the collapse of Eastern Turkey and, especially if the US were to become engaged in Iran, the formation of a 'Kurdistan.'

mike65

Here's a thought, with the US now having overflight access above Turkey will we now see a mad rush by the US to get significant numbers into Kurdish Iraq before the Turks can establish a presence?.

Mike.

Sand

Would their generals want their troops dropped into a situation where not only are they fighting/capturing the Iraqi forces but trying to decide how to react to the all out war that will break out between the Turks, their NATO allies and the Kurds - who they will need to stay on friendly terms with.

Perhaps from their point of view might be best to let the Turks get their bloody nose then step in to arrange a "cease -fire" whereby the US undertakes to protect Tureys interests with its troops whilst at the same time the Turks withdraw.

If Kurdistan was to be born from the war, then the Turks must realise they could not stop its formation without massive cost to itself - surely its best option would be to try to act as a friend to the Kurds, if only for post war economic reasons. Going looking for a war they cannot win, to take a prize they cannot hold when their are far better options is incredibly stupid.

gandalf

The Turks have sent in 1500 commando's already with a force of 10,000 more to follow. This has just got complicated. There is a good chance now the Kurds will engage the Turks and that begs the question who will the yanks support.

Now if I remember correctly there have been reports of Iranian forces building up on the Iraqi border. All thats needed now is them to decide its time to dip their toes into the "game" to really throw the cat among the pigeons :rolleyes:

Oh and btw George W has gone off to camp David for a long weekend, what a leader :rolleyes:

Gandalf.

gandalf

Heres a link from reuters http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=2426615

Gandalf.

Dr_Teeth

Grr.. damn Turks.. no way do I want these ****ers in the EU!

Teeth.

gandalf

Well Teeth this little adventure and any associated incidents with the Kurds may effect that EU membership application.

Gandalf.

mike65

That was exactly my thought...the cool heads in the Turkish gov may be ignored as the rest get carried with thier own paranoia about a Kurd state. The EU if its remotely capable should send a delegate to point out
that action against the Kurds will put them back many years with respect of the EU.

Mike.

gandalf

Heres a interesting story. Now either Saddam and cohorts are trying to draw in the Iranians or a US Missile malfunctioned.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030321/wl_nm/iraq_iran_rocket_dc_3

THat was a early report the Iranians are now blaming the US. They say the missile was launched from a plane.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=2427544

Gandalf.

halkar

There is no one to blame but only the stupid Bush and puppy Blair for this. Turkey had warned US for months over the Kurdish issue and I doubt they will allow Kurds to form a country in the region and I doubt they will let most of their south east lands go for that matter, not for EU , not for UN and not for US. After all proposed (by Kurds) Kurdish lands are in boundaries of Turkey, Iran and Iraq ( Link to map ) . Not only Turkey also Iran too which has started putting troops to it's borders as they fear the same thing as Turkey. If US gives any hopes to Kurds to form a nation in the region this will just put the region in a big mess .

I fear worst as yet to come!!

Cork

Originally posted by gandalf
Well Teeth this little adventure and any associated incidents with the Kurds may effect that EU membership application.

Gandalf.

I think the EU needs to point out this to Turkey. In a post Saddam era - Iraq needs to stay in tact. Iraqis need democratic rights & freedoms. Together with a decent health system and education system.

Actions by Turkey seem to be solving nothing and being completely irresponsible.

But- I think the EU has got to try and put pressure on Turkey.

Sand

Thats an interesting thing though - Do the Kurds have a right to self determination? If they were to demand their own state ( at least the Kurdish areas of Iraq ) would they be justified, and thus should be supported, or would they be wrong - and thus should be opposed?

Would the Iraqi Kurds - whove been practically self governing for the past decade - declaring their own state be so destabilising to the region that it would over-rule (in my opinion ) their right to self determination? I wouldnt think so myself, nothing that couldnt be solved by some discussion with the involved states, they could be asked to remain within Iraq as some sort of semi-independant region, but if they were determined to go for their own state opposing them would merely be neo-imperialism wouldnt it?

Oh yeah, the Turks claimed last night they had sent troops in to Iraq, but theyve now denied this apparently claiming the earlier reports were lies.

Either way, from what I know there are already Turkish bases inside Northern Iraq anyway.

Lemming

"HO HO" ......

things have just gotten even MORE interesting.

The germans are threatening to withdraw their personnel from air-surveillance if the Turks move in en-masee apparently.

ferdi

Here Come the Turks...

well no one saw that comming:rolleyes:

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
Thats an interesting thing though - Do the Kurds have a right to self determination? If they were to demand their own state ( at least the Kurdish areas of Iraq ) would they be justified, and thus should be supported, or would they be wrong - and thus should be opposed?

Its something I've been wondering about myself over the past few days.

Personally, I feel that they should be entitled to it, but will never be granted it.

Would the Iraqi Kurds - whove been practically self governing for the past decade - declaring their own state be so destabilising to the region that it would over-rule (in my opinion ) their right to self determination? I wouldnt think so myself, nothing that couldnt be solved by some discussion with the involved states, they could be asked to remain within Iraq as some sort of semi-independant region, but if they were determined to go for their own state opposing them would merely be neo-imperialism wouldnt it?

I would agree that it shouldn't over-rule their right to self-determination. After all, if such a destabilising influence in a region over-rode the right to self-determination, then I don't think there'd be any way to argue against the forced dissolution of Israel.....and that will never happen.

I'm guessing that a different excuse will be used. I'm just undecided which one yet. I think the "not our place to do this" is my front runner, but I'm not convinced.

jc

PHB

What I'm going to find absolutly hilarious is when the US state that the Turks had no rights to invade Iraq

Yeah, hopefully france will put a hell of a lot of pressure on the EU to sort something out, now if only Bertie would actually listen to his people sometime soon

Vote labour!!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

mike65

Goddamn! Blame the fog of war but even the Kurds say the Turks hav'nt "invaded" yet...maybe given the reaction to what ppl thought had happened they'll think again...or at least let the Yanks deal with it first.

Mike.

Sand

Lets definitly hope so - a Turkish incursion into kurdish Iraq would be disastrous - one can only assume the US has gone into overdrive to persuade the Turks that it would be a Very Bad Idea. Even from the Turks point of view if they wanted a sure fire, 100% way of sparking up a massive kurd militant movement in their own backyard, it would be to invade the kurdish region - even if they were to protect Turkoman pockets in kurdishn areas theyd do best to get the kurds on friendly terms.