Two pilots and the art of propaganda?

mike65

Has anyone been watching the "developments"
this afternoon? As I write this, it could be that anti-aircraft fire did shoot down a US or UK plane and they do have one or two pilots taken prisoner but to me it all looks very much like a staged managed moment to boost "moral" amoung the Baghdad ppl.
Al Jarezera (sp) first reported one, then two caught, then about half and hour later reported that Iraqis denied have caught anyone...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2877931.stm

I've just done a search and can't find any reports to comfirm...

Mike.

Éomer of Rohan

Good for them. It seems that the US are not the only nation which go for psy-ops.

Clintons Cat

Has anyone been watching the "developments"
this afternoon? As I write this, it could be that anti-aircraft fire did shoot down a US or UK plane and they do have one or two pilots taken prisoner but to me it all looks very much like a staged managed moment to boost "moral" amoung the Baghdad ppl.
Al Jarezera (sp) first reported one, then two caught, then about half and hour later reported that Iraqis denied have caught anyone...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2877931.stm

I've just done a search and can't find any reports to comfirm...

Mike.

Mike the Iraqis are probally searching for the two Tornado Pilots shot down by friendly fire this morning.At time of post (5.25pm) they are still missing.
Search and Rescue missions are continuing

Éomer of Rohan

All this is sort of made insignificant by the claims that Saddam is planning on a parade of 35+ Coalition POW's. And the BBC reported that the pilots were dead, no? There are two pilots reportedly shot down over baghdad

BBC Information
Info on prisoners taken and timeline

Barry Aldwell

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
All this is sort of made insignificant by the claims that Saddam is planning on a parade of 35+ Coalition POW's

Violation of the Geveva convention, anyone?

Éomer of Rohan

What is the logic behind banning this sort of thing by convention? Surely the families will be happy to see their relatives alive?

Dotsie~tmp

Violation of the Geveva convention, anyone?

I watched MSNBC reporters last night poking cameras in Iraqi POW faces and rummaging through their stuff. Today their anchor droned on with an army consultant whether or not the Iraqis were breaking the Geneva Convention.

Mike the Iraqis are probally searching for the two Tornado Pilots shot down by friendly fire this morning.At time of post (5.25pm) they are still missing.
Search and Rescue missions are continuing

Sky had some very interesting footage earlier from the incident in which an American soldier 'fragged' his commanding officers. During the incident the footage shows a patriot surface-to-air missile being fired and stiking a target at high altitude which disintegrates. Skys expert speculated this was the Tornado GR4 which is missing becuase it is reported downed in the same area. Might suggest that the battery operator though it was an air-raid and fired without authorisation and not failure of IFF system. Also this is seperate from the reports of downed pilots in Iraq captured. The Tornado went down in Kuwait.

The Gopher

Has anybody noticed that while it was fine to show Iraqis being held down at gunpoint and searched the news channels have either refused to show the footage of the American POWs or shows a very limited amount,not showing the soldiers speaking?ITN and Fox News have refused to show the foootage.Sky News showed a few seconds of poor quality film,not letting us hear the soldiers talk.Only Euronews AFAIK showed anything substantial(aapart from Al Jazeera).And they must have had orders from their ITN bosses to quit showing it-I saw it at 4pm I think but it was not mentioned on the 4:30 bulletin.It showed 2 Texan soldiers speaking,one who looked badly hurt around the head and had flies buzzing near his eye.
It shows what side the networks are on if they will not show the more embarrasing side of the war.Presumably they must think it will limit their chances of getting interviews with prominent politicians.I honestly cant see any moral reason for not showing the footage.

bonkey

There are a couple of issues at stake here.

First of all, allied news stations are refusing to show footage of their soldiers who have been taken captive.

If you think thats a dumb idea then ask yourself when is the last time you saw any responsible media releasing pictures and/or identification of missing/dead people to the public before the officials have notified the nearest of kin etc. etc.

Why should this be any different?

Secondly, the US media seem to want us to believe that the Geneva Convention is not being circumvented by them because they digitise the faces etc. of the POWs, thus avoiding any issue. What they dont seem to realise is that the Geneva Convention is designed to protect the rights of the prisoner. Shoving a camera in his face is shoving a camera in his face....regardless of what you do with the footage afterwards.

Then again, I clearly have a different way of thinking than the US, because I would never accept the creation of a new class of "detainee" as they did in Afghanistan, who is neither a criminal awaiting prosecution, nor a prisoner of war who is entitled to treatment in acordance with the Geneva Convention .

Having said all of that, it would appear that the Iraqi's are far from gentle with their POWs. Whether or not the US is technically in breach of Geneva Conventions in their handling, I would classify the apparent Iraqi treatment as far worse.

jc

Victor

Originally posted by Dotsie~tmp
Sky had some very interesting footage earlier from the incident in which an American soldier 'fragged' his commanding officers.

Which was initially reported as a "terrorist" attack. One reallly has to wonder how much the war is being spun / managed if these stories are shown to be false within hours.

pH

No one is showing these pictures except C4 ...

http://www.aljazeera.net/news/arabic/2003/3/3-23-23.htm

*** warning - not very nice photos ***

And as expected the Al Jazeera site is fairly slow now

Or these ...

I won't link directly, but if you go to

http://www.aljazeerah.info/

and click their "Photos" link there are graphic photos of Iraqi civilian casualties.

Normally these sort of photos are not my cup of tea, but seeing as we've already paid for them, they kind of "belong" to us all

pH

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
If you think thats a dumb idea then ask yourself when is the last time you saw any responsible media releasing pictures and/or identification of missing/dead people to the public before the officials have notified the nearest of kin etc. etc.

Bonkey, I'm not sure how much of the UK media you have seen over the last few days, but there has been a lot of footage of POWs in the papers and on TV. If the Americans aren't in breech, the British are.

ballooba

Iraq is arguing that the Geneva Convention does not apply to the Coalition Forces they detain on pretty much the same grounds as the US argued that they didn't apply to Post Sept 11th prisoners in Guantanamo.
They argue that they are terrorists acting outside the UN and therefore they aint PoWs. Interesting to see US propoganda thrown back in their faces.

Dotsie~tmp

The Convention has little to do with this. They dont want those pictures aired for the affect they will have on the American public. They are graphic and bring the reality of whats happening home very quickly. The US stations are already jumping through hoops for the administration. They show no shots of the dead or injured just big explosions and shít too far off to see the results of those weapons.

These images are what this war is actually about. They are fact and its news media duty to report it. Its sad that we have to rely on Al Jazeera (who seem to be getting the jump on stories and pictures in dangerous situations) to get the story out, of people caught up in this on both sides. The news we are getting is highly censored. Whether they are trying to protect us from horrible images or not i dont know.

bonkey

Originally posted by ballooba
Iraq is arguing that the Geneva Convention does not apply to the Coalition Forces they detain on pretty much the same grounds as the US argued that they didn't apply to Post Sept 11th prisoners in Guantanamo.

Interesting.

2 hours ago (according to google) the Washington post reported that Iraq had made a statement that all of its POWs would be treated in accordance to the Geneva Conventions.

Reuters announced the same :

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L23216223

They probably mean it too - after all, they are trying to portray themselves as the reformed nation made victim here, remember?

jc

mike65

Just to return to the origional story, Sky reporter David Chater was on air saying the Iraqis had caught a man seen on the other side of the river from this afternoons action, I dunno if I'm just slightly paraniod but Chater
sounded like he was trying to indicate that he had a minder within an arms-length of him and was saying what he said, in the way he said it, with that in mind.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1084763,00.html

Mike.

Victor

Originally posted by Dotsie~tmp
Sky had some very interesting footage earlier from the incident in which an American soldier 'fragged' his commanding officers.

And yet more spin http://home.eircom.net/content/reuters/worldnews/409905?view=Eircomnet#

U.S. soldier kills compatriot in anti-war attack
From:Reuters
Sunday, 23rd March, 2003
By Kieran Murray

KUWAIT (Reuters) - One U.S. soldier has been killed and 15 others wounded when a Muslim American serviceman apparently angered by the war against Iraq rolled hand grenades into their tents.

The suspect, a sergeant from an engineering unit, was detained shortly after the early morning attack on Sunday at a tented command centre in Kuwait.

"He's a Muslim, and it seems he was just against the war," said one U.S. military source, who did not wish to be identified.

Brigade commander Colonel Ben Hodges, who suffered a slight flesh wound in the attack, said a grenade was rolled into each of three tents at the command area at Camp Pennsylvania, the Kuwait base for the 1st Brigade of the 101st Airborne Division.

Another U.S. military source said the assault appeared to be well-planned with the suspect first knocking out a generator that supplied electricity to the tents, and then lobbing in grenades.

He also allegedly opened fire with his rifle before he was tackled and detained. The soldier had apparently been attached to the division for a few months.

"It is just unbelievable. It's terroristic, it truly is," said Captain James McGahey. "Everybody is a bit jumpy, edgy. You never want, especially at a time like this, to have to have to think whether you can trust the guy to your left or your right."

Time magazine correspondent Jim Lacey, who witnessed the attack, described scenes of what he called chaos and carnage when the grenades exploded, saying soldiers thought they had come under Iraqi missile attack.

GAS MASKS

Television footage showed soldiers running around wearing gas masks.

"A suspect was taken into custody following the attack on elements of the 101st Airborne Division. The suspect is a soldier assigned to the division," U.S. Central Command, which is running the war in Iraq, said in a statement.

The attack stunned members of the 101st Airborne Division, which specialises in rapid air assault advances, just as it was preparing to move into Iraq to join the invasion which began on Thursday.

Lacey described the man as disgruntled and said he had been "acting strange", but the military sources said the attack appeared to be "politically motivated" rather than personal.

U.S. Central Command did not name the suspect or comment on a possible motive.

A photograph shown on CNN portrayed the suspect bare-headed and kneeling outside a tent in his desert fatigues with his hands cuffed behind his back. A flak-jacketed soldier stood over him with a weapon.

Major Hugh Cate, a spokesman for the 101st Airborne, said 16 people were hit by the attack. One died before arriving at hospital, three others underwent surgery and the other 12 were only slightly wounded.

Camp Pennsylvania is one of the desert bases from where U.S. forces have launched an invasion to try to overthrow Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

Thousands of U.S. troops have been based in Kuwait since the end of the 1991 Gulf War. They have been targeted several times in recent months by militants whom Kuwaiti authorities say may have links to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network.

Kuwait is a key U.S. ally and its government is publicly grateful to Washington for leading the 1991 war that drove out occupying Iraqi troops from the oil-rich country, but there have been concerns of rising anti-American sentiment.

Hmm, Muslim, well planned, gas masks, "acting strange", "politically motivated", Osama bin Laden .... obviously he must be guilty :rolleyes:

And can anyone tell me why the journalist tacked on the last paragraph?

mike65

Originally posted by Victor
And yet more spin http://home.eircom.net/content/reuters/worldnews/409905?view=Eircomnet#
Hmm, Muslim, well planned, gas masks, "acting strange", "politically motivated", Osama bin Laden .... obviously he must be guilty :rolleyes:

And can anyone tell me why the journalist tacked on the last paragraph?

Thousands of U.S. troops have been based in Kuwait since the end of the 1991 Gulf War. They have been targeted several times in recent months by militants whom Kuwaiti authorities say may have links to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network.

Kuwait is a key U.S. ally and its government is publicly grateful to Washington for leading the 1991 war that drove out occupying Iraqi troops from the oil-rich country, but there have been concerns of rising anti-American sentiment.

Seems pretty logical to me...the first para mentions the tensions that have been apparent in Kuiwait for some months now and then the second brings it back to the first Gulf war.

In a slightly connected fashion, Andrew Sullivan in the Sunday Times had an article which suggested the UN mandate for GW1 was directly responsible for Osama Bin Laden attack on US as it forced the US to end up perminantly based in large numbers in Saudi Arabia
while enforcing the no-fly zones, and that this was what politicsed Bin laden and created Al Quaeda, which etc...

As for the attack by the guy on "his own" ppl, I'd say
publicly speculating was completly wrong. Maybe he just went nutziod with fear/tenison and should never have been there to start with.

Mike.

Victor

Originally posted by mike65
Seems pretty logical to me...the first para mentions the tensions that have been apparent in Kuiwait for some months now and then the second brings it back to the first Gulf war.

OK, fair enough, but this has no direct connection with the story. There is no suggestion that the particular soldier was anti-American, Kuwaiti or a member of Al Qaeda.

Originally posted by mike65
In a slightly connected fashion, Andrew Sullivan in the Sunday Times had an article which suggested the UN mandate for GW1 was directly responsible for Osama Bin Laden attack on US

Well I think it's on Bin Ladens conscience not the UNs he didn't have to attack the WTC. His objection was the "infidel" were in the Muslim "holy land", Mecca, Medina and other sites.

Shinji

It's interesting that while plenty of news sources are prepared to report the "tension" in Kuwait, none of them seem to link it back to the fact that most people in Kuwait (like in Saudi Arabia) despise their (unelected, dicatatorial) rulers and weren't chuffed at all to see them reinstalled with a few divisions of US armour backing them up 12 years ago. Apparently feeling on the ground in Kuwait has been very anti-USA indeed in the past few months as the troops have rolled back into Kuwait once again.

bonkey

Originally posted by Victor
Well I think it's on Bin Ladens conscience not the UNs he didn't have to attack the WTC. His objection was the "infidel" were in the Muslim "holy land", Mecca, Medina and other sites.

Sure, but at the risk of getting slapped back further than the StoneAge....

Maybe he decided that diplomacy had failed, and that further negotiation with the Western Powers was nothing more than a waste of time....therefore action had to be taken ?????

Hell - maybe the Twin Towers attack was a diplomatic move in his eyes. After all - most people seem to count the limited bombing runs in the No-Fly-Zone as part of the diplomatic efforts which failed.

jc