Numbers of POWs

Victor

While I understand there is a propaganda war going on, every day there are more and more reports of Iraqi soldiers being made POWs. But the total hasn't gone up siece the weekend, despite the alleged surrender of the 8,000-man Iraqi 51st division and the reported surrender of the Iraqi 11th division. Is there something I'm missing? Are whole divisions being invented? Made "illegal combattants"? Released? Changing sides?

"'THOUSANDS TAKEN CAPTIVE' Over 4,000 Iraqis have been taken prisoner since the start of the war last Thursday, a US military spokesman has said." http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-12275944,00.html

Borzoi

This is probably due to the way people count numbers of people in fast moving situations. They ask several others, then tot the figures, but chances are the people they asked have already done the same, so you get doubling up (or more) on certain sets of numbers.

You'll notice it particularly at disasters. Body count figures start moderate, ramp up really quicly, then start to drop. It's a familiar pattern.

(probably a maths/sociology thesis in there somewher)

Of course, if could also be down to:
lazy journolism
propaganda

Victor

This is a bit rambling, but just to note some things regarding surrender and POWs. Surrender isn't binding until it is accepted. As a soldier you can drop your gun and put your hands in the air and still be legally (if not morally) shot (note the scene at the start of Saving Private Ryan where surrendering Germans are shot). In essence they don't become POWs until they have been physically touched.

U.S. POWs "may have been executed"
From:Reuters
Thursday, 27th March, 2003

http://home.eircom.net/content/reuters/worldnews/427984?view=Eircomnet

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. defence officials say Iraq may have executed U.S. prisoners of war, but say they are still gathering evidence to prove that claim.

Marine Corps General Peter Pace, vice chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, told CNN's "Larry King Live" that Iraqis had committed an array of war crimes since the war began, including executing prisoners of war and storing weapons in schools.

"They have executed prisoners of war," Pace said in an apparent reference to 15 Army troops captured or killed on Sunday when their supply convoy was ambushed in southern Iraq.

Iraqi television subsequently showed five U.S. soldiers being interrogated, as well as photographs of up to eight bloodied corpses, which Iraq claimed were American troops.

Two more were reported dead.

Some of the bodies appeared to have bullet wounds to the forehead, suggesting possible execution.

Pace's remarks appeared to confirm comments from U.S. defence officials, who cited initial intelligence data that the U.S. soldiers were killed as they attempted to surrender.

But officials later said an investigation was ongoing and the soldiers were officially considered missing, not dead.

"We are saying that some of the soldiers ambushed near Nassiriya may have been executed," one defence official told Reuters early on Thursday. "We're still investigating."

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said U.S. forces hoped to locate the remains of the alleged U.S. soldiers depicted in the Iraqi photographs soon and rescue the five soldiers Iraq is holding prisoner.

In the meantime, the investigation would continue.

Iraq's Ambassador to Russia, Abbas Khalaf, denied Iraq had executed American and British prisoners in an interview with Interfax early Thursday, and reiterated that Baghdad would treat POWs in line with the Geneva Convention.

He said Iraqi television would show "a large number of killed and captured" U.S. and British troops on Thursday.

RED CROSS HOPES TO SEE POWS SOON

The International Committee of the Red Cross said it remained "hopeful and optimistic" that it would soon gain access to the prisoners held by Iraq and the United States.

ICRC spokesman Fouad Bawaba in Kuwait City said the Red Cross's discussions with Iraqi and U.S. officials had been "constructive so far," although no visits were scheduled yet.

"I cannot give a precise day, but we are hopeful we will gain access to the prisoners on both sides soon," he said.

U.S. forces say they have captured over 4,500 Iraqi prisoners. In addition to the five Army troops, U.S. officials say Iraq is also holding two Apache helicopter pilots.

Qatar-based al-Jazeera television on Wednesday also showed the bodies of two dead soldiers it claimed were British.

U.S. intelligence analysts have analysed the photographs and videos to determine where the soldiers are being held.

U.S. officials say an Army supply convoy apparently made a wrong turn during a battle near Nassiriya, and members of an Army maintenance unit were ambushed by Iraqi forces.

The Pentagon on Wednesday said two troops were killed in the ambush, eight were missing and five were held by Iraq.

Pace said Iraqi forces had committed many war crimes, including storing weapons in schools, using hospitals to stage operations, and dressing soldiers in civilian clothes.

"They have executed prisoners of war. ... They have used women and children as human shields. And they have pretended to surrender and then opened fire on the forces to which they were supposedly surrendering," he said. "I've never seen anything like this. ... It's disgusting," he said.

U.S. officials say Iraqi officials subjected the captured U.S. soldiers to "public ridicule" by questioning them in front of video cameras in violation of Geneva Convention rules.

Pace said Iraqi forces had committed many war crimes, including storing weapons in schools, using hospitals to stage operations, and dressing soldiers in civilian clothes.

Don't really mean to jump this thread, but this caught my eye. What do they really expect when they invade a nation? They're attacking cities, where all manner of terrain should be used. The Americans themselves have used such locations in most wars, for base of operations, artillery positions, etc.

As for dressing soldiers in civilian clothes, then, they're not soldiers, but irregulars. Probably civilians who want to defend their country from the enemy.

"They have executed prisoners of war. ... They have used women and children as human shields. And they have pretended to surrender and then opened fire on the forces to which they were supposedly surrendering," he said. "I've never seen anything like this. ... It's disgusting," he said.

he must have lead a very sheltered life as a soldier, to be disgusted so easily.

davelerave

i don't think there'll be a huge total at the end of the war,there's a lot of 'window dressing' with regard to pows and the geneva convention.bombing convoys is borderline execution imo

daveirl

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