Garda Brutality

Victor

This issue was brought up again last night regarding the non-wearing of ID numbers by the "Public Order Unit" (riot squad).

Originally posted by Man
Well I thought , the locals on the outskirts of Basrah on ITV news tonight were quite happy. The torture chamber, they showed the previous night looked gruesome, it was at the local police station, I'd be hoping the Gardaí don't have one

Originally posted by Victor
Nah, they just batter people on the streets.

Originally posted by Man
Now, now, Victor, at least when they get Zealous, they get taken to task for it.

Take a look at the current edition of Magill (cover and extract from main story “The Heavy Hand of the Law” below) and today's papers. It appears quite a few Gardaí who have gone well beyond reason (never mind reasonable force) are still on the beat.



Magill is not available on-line.

Few of these cases ever make the headlines. What happened to Grainne and Ciara Walsh was an exception.

The two sisters were walking up Grafton Street with friends in the early hours of 25 April 1998 when an unmarked Garda car reversed towards them. In an attempt to alert the gardai, Grainne, a fashion designer from Castleknock in Dublin, hanged on the hoot of the car. She was arrested and thrown into the back of a Garda van. When her sister objected, she was arrested too.

On the journey to Pearse Street, Grainne claimed she was held by her hair, while a garda knelt on her back. She claimed the garda continuously moved her, shook her, lifted her up by the hair and banged her down again.

She claimed that when the van stopped, the garda put one hand on her head, and as the door opened, pushed her head forward suddenly as he let go of her wrists, ensuring-that she had no chance of using her feet to step down from the van. She alleged that she fell head-first to the ground and landed on her chin.

She also claimed that she was then pulled by the arms through the doorway to the station. She said she was on her knees and that she ripped her trousers as she was pulled.

Friends of the sisters, who had witnessed the incident, immediately went to Pearse Street to complain. One was offered a lift to the station by a sympathetic garda.

In the station, the sisters were put in the same cell by a sergeant who apologised to them, and assured them that no charges would be brought. A doctor was called to ' look at Grainne's injuries. The duo were released after a few hours.

Six months later, after the sisters had lodged proceedings against the gardai, summonses were served. They were accused of assaulting two officers. One of the assaults was said to have taken place on Nassau Street, even though they were arrested and taken into custody on Grafton Street.

They were also said to be so drunk as to be a danger to themselves and others. In court, one of the gardaí said that Grainne was so intoxicated she could not speak or sign her name.

A copy of her signature was later produced.

The sisters had been warned by their solicitor to expect a summons. "But it was still alarming;' says Grainne. Nine gardai, including two sergeants, turned up at the District Court to give evidence against them. "Every one told a different story when they took the stand.'

In court, one of the two gardai who had arrested the sisters was asked by the judge if the incident had been investigated internally. He replied that it had. When pressed, he told the court that he had investigated it himself.

The judge threw out the case, describing it as a "disgraceful" day in the history of the police force. He would have awarded costs if he could, but public policy didn't allow it, he said.

In the High Court last summer, counsel for the Garda Commissioner said the force "regret very much what had happened" and acknowledged that both women were of "unblemished character". He told the court that damages had been paid.

It took the Commissioner another six months to prepare a report on the incident for the Minister for Justice, Michael McDowell. But the Minister has since sent that report back.

"I got an inadequate report, late,' the Justice Minister told Magill "It didn't explain the circumstances in which gardai instituted District Court proceedings without seeking the authority of their superiors. I didn't receive any adequate explanation as to why that happened, so I asked for a second report:'

He still hasn't received it, but says he will wait for as long as it takes.

Shortly after the incident, Grainne was contacted by a garda who said he was investigating the complaint. "It was 10 o'clock on a Friday night;' she recalls. "He asked me to confirm my name and address and phone number, and said he would ring again. But that was the last I heard of him."

The gardai involved are still on the beat, according to Walsh:

"I have seen them around Grafton Street and my heart stops, but they don't recognise me at all. I don't believe the gardai have any intention of doing anything about it. If they had, the same guards wouldn't be in the same job, five years later. I'm sure they are just laughing:'

Grainne (35) readily admits that she and her sister were the perfect plaintiffs:

"For us, taking the case was a huge risk. The District Court case cost us thousands of pounds. We faced the possibility of losing tens of thousands in the High Court. But we knew we were innocent and we were in a position to fight it. If you don't have the finances, or the witnesses, or if you have a record or a drug problem, you have to drop it.'

Separately (regarding people bring complaints)

"IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE ALL INVENTING THESE STORIES WITH A VIEW TO BLACKENING THE NAME OF THE GARDAI" -FR PETER MCVERRY

DadaKopf

That woman was on the TV a few months ago. The thing's a disgrace. I totally lost respect for the Gardai that day on Dame St. Can I be the first person on this thread to say "something must be done".

GuanYin

The problem is, those most at risk (and yes I do mean "at risk") of such incidents don't seem to have any political leverage. Low voting figures among that age group and the prehostoric view in this country that "young people are trouble" means that it is left in the hands of corrupt politicians and garda officials to deal with this issue.

I really thought that the May day riots would promote some sort of political response from our generation, but alas, nothing. And I don't doubt for a second that if another similar protest against the Gardai was organised that those involved would be putting themselves at risk or garda harassment or possibly worse.....

Thats fine, victor, but to give the impression that it is embedded and widespread is quite frankly, untrue, misleading and unfair on the vast majority of the Gardaí.
I brought it up in the context of torture chambers in the police station raided by Coalition forces in Basrah.

If, by this you are trying,to compare the Gardaí with Sadams police force, then google some deaths in Garda stations for me:rolleyes:
Or more to the point, google Garda torture chambers:rolleyes:
mm

GuanYin

Originally posted by Man
If, by this you are trying,to compare the Gardaí with Sadams police force, then google some deaths in Garda stations for me:rolleyes:
Or more to the point, google Garda torture chambers:rolleyes:
mm

I don't think he suggested either....

quote:

---

Originally posted by Victor
Nah, they just batter people on the streets.

---

PH01

Do 'Riot' police anywhere on this planet wear identification? And should they?

GuanYin

Well not their name and address.
But a Garda insignia and badge number yes!

Cork

Originally posted by Man


If, by this you are trying,to compare the Gardaí with Sadams police force, then google some deaths in Garda stations for me:rolleyes:
Or more to the point, google Garda torture chambers:rolleyes:
mm

I think that there is no comparrisson between Saddam's so called police force and the Gardaí.

Two people were arrested for public order offences after the riot police cleared the protestors from the road.

Source: online.ie 03 Apr 2003

dahamsta

Originally posted by Cork
I think that there is no comparrisson between Saddam's so called police force and the Gardaí.

Absolutely. Saddam's force is there only to police Saddam's definition of political rights and wrongs. That would never happen in Ireland. You'd never see a democratically-elected opposition politician manhandled or silenced by the Irish police, for example.



(Enlarge for caption.)

adam

Kell

In reference to the "moving of Joe Higgins" a priest who was part of the peace campaigning posse went on radio yesterday morning to say that Joe Higgins was blocking an exit preventing people leaving wherever it was they were and had been asked several times by the Guards to move, which he declined. The priest said that it was his opinion that Higgins deliberatley goaded the Police into making such an action in order to publiscise the whole thing in the press making the cops out to be the bad guys.

He broke the law by refusing a specific order by a Guard and deserved to be removed.

PS: I dont actually like the Police in general at all so my defense of their actions in this case is really odd.

K-

sanvean

i would've thought that after the may day fiasco, the gardai would at least adopt an intelligent approach to policing the 'unruly' youth. removing an opposition td in full view of the cameras is just plain stupid.

and yes, generalisations are unhelpful, and labelling the gardai as a whole in general negative terms is something to be avoided, but they've done nothing to address the situation after may day (unless you would consider lodging court actions against those who have done so against the gardai). there is a general lack of enthusiasm about an ombudsman to independently investigate allege gardai crimes. the need for an independent investigator is all the more apparent when we consider that when the may day events were investigated (internally) none of the gardai questioned could seem to identify those gardai (some of whom they would have worked with) involved in alleged acts of brutality. if this isn't a case for tarnishing all (or at least most) gardai with the same brush, then i don't know what is

Cork

The Law in Ireland applys to everybody including TDs. I saw that picture in yesterdays Examiner newspaper and my first impression was Did Gardaí ask him to move on before lifting him up.

Was he obstructing the public road?

I don't think Joe Higgins was silenced.

How much did it cost the GardaI to police this protest?

It is far too easy to cry "Garda Brutality" where Gardaí enforce public order legalislation.

Does Mr. Higgins think he was subjected to "Garda Brutality" ?

Originally posted by sykeirl
I don't think he suggested either....

quote:

---

Originally posted by Victor
Nah, they just batter people on the streets.

---

I was referring to the implication, that the Magill articale, suggests , that the Gardaí could be compared with Sadams Regime-to suggest so would be preposterous.

and as regards:

Originally posted by dahamsta
You'd never see a democratically-elected opposition politician manhandled or silenced by the Irish police, for example.

Joe higgins silenced, in the same way as an Iraqi opposition politician:rolleyes: now that is also complete nonsense.
mm

bonkey

Originally posted by sanvean
removing an opposition td in full view of the cameras is just plain stupid.

No - its incredibly smart, because it makes it far easier to prove that you were, in fact doing your job correctly, and the he - the TD - was in the wrong.

Personally, I applaud the gardai for this one - TDs deserve no special treatment. If they are blocking a public route, and refusing to move, then they should be treated in the same way anyone else performing that action at that time would be.

The problem is that opportunistic media wishing to spin an event can take a still shot, put it with a catchy caption, and infer whatever the hell they like.

If anything, they should be questioning why a TD is engaging in civil disobedience, rather than doing his job which is standing up for his electorate in the Dail.

jc

sanvean

Originally posted by bonkey
The problem is that opportunistic media wishing to spin an event can take a still shot, put it with a catchy caption, and infer whatever the hell they like.

that's what i mean. being aware of the power of the media, and knowing that it was going to make front page headlines, was something they should have tried to avoid. i'm not saying that it isn't right to remove politicians, but the protest was unlikely to have made front page headlines had this incident not occured.

Biffa Bacon

What I think was disgraceful about the Gardaís actions on Wednesday was that no one (afaik) was arrested and charged for breaking the law. If they weren't breaking the law they should have been left there, and if they were breaking the law they should have been arrested. Why were they just "moved on"?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Sparks

Want a quick answer? They didn't have identification numbers on their uniforms. McDowell's comments on why not are just that - comments. I can have comments on why I didn't have tax on my car - it won't mean I don't get charged with not having tax.
Pretty black and white really.

Éomer of Rohan

I have to admit, despite being a dyed in the wool socialist party member, I laughed my little ass of when I saw that picture the first time around. Generally, that is the sort of thing that the Socialist Party disapproves of actually - for example, we stopped youth sitting down in Belfast centre at the Day X walkouts while the SWP encouraged them - we didn't want them to get arrested as those that followed the SWP were. But Joe Higgins is a cog in a party of equals and a free individual....

Victor

I actually posted this after only hearing a bit on the morning news, bought Magill and seen a few stories on the web. It turns out early stories had indeed inflated the events and no one appears to have had more than their egos harmed and that only 2 people were arrested. However, there is no excuse for any police officer to not wear identification, in particular if they have their faces obscured. Most riot squads (including the PSNI) have numbers on the back of their helmets, Gardaí have "Garda". Is it so difficult to print out some lables?

Tell me how much difference there is between a a bunch of unidentifiable guys going around with baseball bats or trucheons? What sort of message does it send?

Originally posted by Cork
I think that there is no comparrisson between Saddam's so called police force and the Gardaí. [/I]

Of course the Iraqi police leave planting bombs to the various secret services (note Donegal Tribunal).

MDR

Joe Higgins is quite a smart man, public support for protest against the war is waining (as opposed to public support against the war is still quite high).

Joe and company needed to grab the media's attention quickily again, one of the best way's of doing this of late has been to cry Garda Brutality.

Now this Garda brutality issue has been hyped by the media quite a bit, on closer examination Joe said he was man handled by the Garda and that was all. Thats fair in enough IMHO, Joe was told that if he obstructed the through fair he would be removed, he obstructed and removed he was.

He never claimed that the Garda assulted him in anyway, the identification issue is a fair one and I don't know why they wouldn't be wearing identification, but I do feel something should be about it.

But as for the conduct of the Garda on the day, I find it very difficult to find issue with it.

If you look closely at the Shannon protest, watch and _LISTEN_ to the videos on indymedia, you will here speakers asking people to deliberately get themselves arrested. So really they are no strangers to using this type of technique to grab publicity.

Futher more I actually observed from a far the peace protest of saturday March 30th in Dublin. It was a lovely saturday and positioned myself at the corner of Moleworth Street and Kildare street. The crowd came up peacefully and in good humour, the Garda observed from a distance. They chanted for a few minutes and then the mood changed a little. They burned an effagy (spelling ?) of bertie (much to my amusement) and threw objects I couldn't see what they where from my position through the railings at the Dail. They Garda impassively watched all of this.

Then all of a sudden, a group of maybe fifty to a hundred people at the head of march, suddenily charged forward and ran out on to st stevens green like mad men, darting through the traffic dangerousily, causing it to stop and a bus to swerve, it was really worrying to watch, some tried to sit down on the green but where removed. I was amazed no-one got killed, the Garda acted quite professionally (IMHO) and had the situation contained quite quickily.

Of course there was no media there, and nobody told the story next morning in the Sunday Papers, thats probabily why Joe had his sit down protest.

Don't get my wrong there are bad garda (Donegal and may day... jeeze what going on there), but don't ever be blind to the fact that these stories are paper sellers, and protest groups will exploit that to their own end.

Victor

Originally posted by MDR
the identification issue is a fair one and I don't know why they wouldn't be wearing identification, but I do feel something should be about it.

I was thinking about this at about 4am today (as I am wont to do) and thought "If they claim to be legitimate, why do they have to hide?".

Éomer of Rohan

Speaking of arrests, did anyone see the school walkouts and consequent aasembly in Belfast centre on tuesday around lunchtime? I thought that this hi-jacking of a decent protest to be unacceptable - the SWP convinced kids to sit down on the road in order to get arrested, very irresponsible indeed. The Socialist Party was hard pushed to keep most people in the sidelines. All the same I think the RUC were a bit heavy handed when it came down to it.

MDR

Source : rte.ie

Minister McDowell said there was no provision for identification numbers on garda riot gear at the moment, but added the Garda authorities were looking into how this could be done.

There is actually nowhere to put identification numbers on the suits ....

Victor

Originally posted by MDR
There is actually nowhere to put identification numbers on the suits ....

Stickers? Sewing kit? I'm sure imaginations could be put to use.

But one has to ask, if everyone else has them, was Garda riot specially specified as different?

therecklessone

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Speaking of arrests, did anyone see the school walkouts and consequent aasembly in Belfast centre on tuesday around lunchtime? I thought that this hi-jacking of a decent protest to be unacceptable - the SWP convinced kids to sit down on the road in order to get arrested, very irresponsible indeed. The Socialist Party was hard pushed to keep most people in the sidelines. All the same I think the RUC were a bit heavy handed when it came down to it.

I'm sure there were many taunts of "splitter!"...

ballooba

Originally posted by Man
If, by this you are trying,to compare the Gardaí with Sadams police force, then google some deaths in Garda stations for me:rolleyes:
Or more to the point, google Garda torture chambers:rolleyes:
mm

Didn't some bloke die suspiciously in Donegal not so long ago.

How the hell would we ever hear about the gardai being involved in torture or any other illicit activities?

MDR

Stickers? Sewing kit? I'm sure imaginations could be put to use.

But one has to ask, if everyone else has them, was Garda riot specially specified as different?.

I amn't sure the suits where really brought out often enough for garda to worry about it too much (although they do seem to be get more fresh air lately), as the minister said identification on the suits is being investigated.

At the end of the day though, its hardily comparable to a situation where Garda are deliberately take id off the suits. No provision was made for id on the suits, thats not the fault of the Garda on the ground, most probabily the fault of whoever ordered the suits in the first instance.

How the hell would we ever hear about the gardai being involved in torture or any other illicit activities?

I dunno the Garda in Donegel and Abbylara seem to be being dragged over the coals fairily well by the media and the justice systems, not without cause ... well in Donegal anyway ... but thats just IMHO.

Garda having toture chambers is just a fantastical idea, have you ever meet any garda socially ?, any in your family ?, they are just a bunch of guys and girls who want to do their nine to five, go home and watch the footy. There is no grand conspiracy amoung them to suppress the people in Ireland, in fact I would say that probabily say that like the nurses, sh*te pay is probabily the most contributing fact to Garda apathy and therefore poor performance IMHO.
...

ballooba

Originally posted by MDR
I dunno the Garda in Donegel and Abbylara seem to be being dragged over the coals fairily well by the media and the justice systems, not without cause ... well in Donegal anyway ... but thats just IMHO.

Garda having toture chambers is just a fantastical idea

Not sure about this but wasn't there an accusation that the gardai had beaten the crap out John Carthy on several occasions?

Anyway, the John Carthy incident was an unfortunate turn of events. It is what allegedly happened in Donegal that is truly worrying and if it is happening in Donegal then why not everywhere?

Low wages could be a reason why some Gardai may seek to (or may jump at the opportunity to) supplement their incomes through illicit activities.

BTW you don't need a torture chamber to torture someone. physically or Psychologically.

ballooba

Something unrelated to the above but on the topic of the original post.

I was in a taxi recently where the driver was describing a scene very similar to the one you mention. I presume it was the same incident. he was outside Pearse St garda Station when he saw a Paddy Wagon pull up and he saw the gardai basically kicking two girls out of the van and then dragging them up the steps of the Garda Station. He indicated that he had seen plenty of scenes like this.

Executive Steve

for several years i sold hot dogs and drove rickshaws around dublin, as well as various other little jobs/scams and i can tell you the dublin police force is as corrupt as they come... if you dont believe me then i suggest you begin your research with the copperface jacks accounts and inventory system... then you might check out their payroll too.. very interesting reading.... then you might hang around out back on christmas eve and the few days leading up to it...

my own favourite story of police brutality [and i got clubbed by a cop on may day] was on grafton street a couple of years ago.... random fight breaks out four guys on two... battering these guys to a pulp, one bled profusely... along comes a copper on a bike... the four guys doing the beating whip out their badges the bike drives off... a half hearted kick finishes the fight and the four wander off leaving a street full of witnesses. no attempt was made by anybody to arrest anybody.