Bush coming to the North next week!

DMC

Well....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/2918761.stm
http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/0404/North.html

Theres gonna be some amount of security and protests, folks!

daveirl

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DMC

It might be easier to count who's not!

daveirl

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dathi1

OK, who's going?

mise and the PLO posse.

daveirl

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davelerave

there probably won't be any photo opportunities for peace protesters ,not even a press conference

davelerave

bertie won't be happy either bush and blair wanting to meet him in the middle of their war

dathi1

Unlike the Clinton walkabouts..Bush will arrive in a capsule of high security (like when he was in Poland). He will not meet randomly with members of the public and only hand picked officials and a token few citizens will be thrown in for good measure. Because of the lack of brain cells in the cerebral cortex all speeches are pre prepared and are never delivered without cue glass or sheets in a fixed glazed look towards the camera. Questions by the press are pre vetted and only a few will be answered the rest will be left up to Ahern, Trimble etc.
...Now where’s that Barret sniper rifle

Cork

I think if Bush, Blair & Bertie turn the pressure up on Gerry Adams & Co to use their influence to get the gun out of Irish politics - I think this visit will be welcomed.

Éomer of Rohan

I might just remind everyone that this is the same Bush who's administration stuck by a think tank that declared the DUP more likely to compromise than the UUP. Get real.
This is far from being about IRA weapons and Mr Bush has already made clear that that is a major focus of his visit. I think it is intensely funny that this man can come to my country and say 'disarm' while waging an illegal war in Iraq. I personally am rubbing my hands with glee over the protests the Socialist Party will be leading.

Sparks

Excuse me?
You want a right-wing militant christian fundamentalist who's pissed on the Geneva and Hague conventions and the UN Charter and started a pre-emptive war to get the gun out of politics in a location where the fighting is split down religious lines?

davelerave

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
I might just remind everyone that this is the same Bush who's administration stuck by a think tank that declared the DUP more likely to compromise than the UUP. Get real.
This is far from being about IRA weapons and Mr Bush has already made clear that that is a major focus of his visit. I think it is intensely funny that this man can come to my country and say 'disarm' while waging an illegal war in Iraq. I personally am rubbing my hands with glee over the protests the Socialist Party will be leading.

i'd say it's just a war powwow for bush and blair,nothing too public . the uup is kinda dysfunctional and the dup are a better bet for negotiations when paisley's gone

Éomer of Rohan

The UUP is far from dysfunctional - it is still the largest party in the country / bastard state / other pointless nomenclatura and if you understood anything about NI politics, it is obvious that the DUP make a point out of not negotiating. Bloody hell, I mean nigel Dodds was on Hearts and Minds the other night saying to the question "If the IRA disarmed tomorrow, would you let Sinn Fein into government given a choice?" that the DUP would need proof that Sinn Fein were committed to peaceful means. Same old Same old. Which is why the religious divisions get us nowhere - except dead.

Cork

There are many threads on these boards discussing the war in Iraq. This tread is entitled:Bush coming to the North next week!

Bush hopefully will push the partys up North to get the executive going before the fourthcoming Northern Ireland elections.

It is about time SF/IRA decided that these guns need to be put beyond use. They (the guns) serve no purpose and should no longer be held. If Bush's visit can push SF to come out to get rid of the bullet & the bomb of of "Irish politics". I think, his visit will be welcomed.

davelerave

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
The UUP is far from dysfunctional - it is still the largest party in the country / bastard state / other pointless nomenclatura and if you understood anything about NI politics, it is obvious that the DUP make a point out of not negotiating. Bloody hell, I mean nigel Dodds was on Hearts and Minds the other night saying to the question "If the IRA disarmed tomorrow, would you let Sinn Fein into government given a choice?" that the DUP would need proof that Sinn Fein were committed to peaceful means. Same old Same old. Which is why the religious divisions get us nowhere - except dead.

the dup speaks with one voice the uup speaks with many voices

Sparks

Cork, that's a wonderful end to hope for, but I'll repeat myself:

You want a right-wing militant christian fundamentalist who's pissed on the Geneva and Hague conventions and the UN Charter and started a pre-emptive war to get the gun out of politics in a location where the fighting is split down religious lines?

Éomer of Rohan

Davelerave,

the dup speaks with one voice the uup speaks with many voices

All the parties speak with many voices EXCEPT the DUP and therefore they are siingularly unsuitable for negotiations. Of all the parties in the North, they are the one least committed to the democractic process, preferring right wing rhetorical rubbish to concrete policies.

Cork,

It is about time SF/IRA decided that these guns need to be put beyond use. They (the guns) serve no purpose and should no longer be held. If Bush's visit can push SF to come out to get rid of the bullet & the bomb of of "Irish politics". I think, his visit will be welcomed.

His visit should not be welcomed on several levels, the first being that he is going to put his big foot in it if he thinks the purpose of this visit is about Sinn Fein / IRA weapons - and he does. The PIRA are NOT the only terrorist group and they are the ones that have undergone the most decomissioning - to be fair, why the hell should they continue to disarm when there are plenty of loyalist terrorist organisations still sitting on their stockpiles? If he comes off with some recklessly stupid statement about Sinn Fein / IRA (god forbid that he should SAY Sinn Fein/IRA in that manner!) and disarmament then he will be doing nothing other than vindicating the unnionist politicians who are not supporting a return to devolved government - the IRA don't give a toss what he thinks - he has already come down hard on NORAID and other such organisations so there is no lve lost there, not to mention Clinton, he ain't.

The other level is of course the one that Spark has brought up but people seem to be ignoring - this is a man who's government has indeed violated the UN Charter, the Geneva Conventions, started an illegal war and is all of a sudden interested in the conflict in Northern Ireland - well bugger me, I am building my bomb shelter already LOL. I think it a cynical move to belay criticisms and to appeal to Irish voters - which will backfire because he will inevitably screw up, being the twit that he is, even though, as has already been pointed out at length, all the questions and so on will be from sympathetic press.

Cork

The PIRA are NOT the only terrorist group and they are the ones that have undergone the most decomissioning - to be fair, why the hell should they continue to disarm when there are plenty of loyalist terrorist organisations still sitting on their stockpiles?

There is no place for private armies in our country. That goes for both the loyalist and republican side. SF failed to condemn IRA violence yet they feel free to speech out aganist US forces in Iraq?

this is a man who's government has indeed violated the UN Charter, the Geneva Conventions, started an illegal war and is all of a sudden interested in the conflict in Northern Ireland

THe US has played a vital role in our peace process. You think the war is illegal. That is your openion. Many hold a contary view that the war is legal owing to the fact did not immediately and totally disarm. This is another arguement for an other thread. This has nothing to do with President Bush's visit here.

I hope that next week, our own peace process will be put back on track. It should act as an example for other countries - that tit for tat acts of violence achieves only misery and hurt.

But I hope the SDLP will do well in the forthcoming elections. Over the last 30 years - they saw the sheer futility of violence.

I think there are many lessons to be learnt from the NI situation.

I hope the US administration will both learn from the NI situation and help solve a few issues that are causing difficulty between the various partys.

Sparks

Cork,
You think the war is illegal. That is your openion.
*ahem*
Big, round, hairy Bollocks.
It's not just "our opinion". It happens to be the opinion of the majority of Irish and International legal experts.

And frankly, hoping for Bush to learn anything from NI, or even knowing where it is on a map without a briefing, is completely naive.

daveirl

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Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
Cork,
You think the war is illegal. That is your openion.
*ahem*
Big, round, hairy Bollocks.
It's not just "our opinion". It happens to be the opinion of the majority of Irish and International legal experts.

And frankly, hoping for Bush to learn anything from NI, or even knowing where it is on a map without a briefing, is completely naive.

First - this tread is about Bush's visit. The legality or illegality of the war in Iraq has been discussed in other threads. If, George W Bush can get the IRA to disarm or join the policing board - his visit has to be welcomed.

SF is supported by many Irish americans and I think that it is good that the worlds media will focus on Ireland Ireland next week & Bertie, Geogre and Tony will put it up to SF/IRA.

Maybe SF/IRA will be involved in the Anti War protest in Belfast?

I am optimistic that something good may come out of Bush's visit - It is about time that SF made a choise bewteen the ballot box and the gun. IRA guns have been silent but have punishment beatings stopped?

It is due time that these guns were banished into history. I hope Bush's visit will act as a catalyst to get our own peace process back on track.

And frankly, hoping for Bush to learn anything from NI, or even knowing where it is on a map without a briefing, is completely naive.

Why? I don't give much credit to many NI politicians except John Hume & Brid Rodgers & the SDLP over the last 35 years.

Yet the Clinton US administration have really helped our peace process. If Bush is going to Belfast - He cannot be nothing but a help. The executive is suspended, the IRA still have arms & elections have been postponed.

It needs to be kick started. If SF/IRA does not disarm - Like Iraq they will be subject to sanctions. There is no room for illegal armies in this country.

Éomer of Rohan

I would like to point out to Cork that of course Bush's actions on the international stage have ramifications when he comes to Northern Ireland - where he is going to speak on a subject from which parallels can be drawn to the situations in other countries. Also, Bush's visit is going to present interesting opportunities to the Anti 'War in Iraq' movement thus this thread DOES NOT preclude discussion about the war.

If, George W Bush can get the IRA to disarm or join the policing board - his visit has to be welcomed.

I think this is a very naive attitude. There are more issues to be dealt with in the 'peace process' than SF/IRA decommissioning - if this is the one that Bush chooses to focus on, then the DUP will probably be able to capitalise on it and smash the UUP in the upcoming elections - this would be disastrous for the 'peace process' - this was the reason why Downing Street have pulled back from a confrontation with SF/IRA about arms and being in government. As has been pointed out also, Sinn Fein has no love for the Bush Administration - and the question remains therefore, why would they listen to this man? Especially when their youth organisation took action (albeit minor compared to the other groups) in the anti-war protests. I dislike ALL the sectarian political parties in the north - into which category falls the UUP, SDLP, SF and DUP and I recognise that in the 'anti-war' stance of Sinn Fein, they belie themselves as hypocrites but that is no reason to practically hand the DUP the sodding elections.

I am optimistic that something good may come out of Bush's visit - It is about time that SF made a choise bewteen the ballot box and the gun. IRA guns have been silent but have punishment beatings stopped?

This ignores one fundamental point; when and if the IRA hands over it's weapons, why would punishment beatings stop? Again I must point out that the IRA is not solely responsible for punishment attacks - in fact is has been the UVF and UDA over the past few months that have occupied the headlines for such activities - but it is unlikely that Bush will even mention these, since they have no relation to American politics and the IRA do. Again, this is one sided and will be detrimental.

It is due time that these guns were banished into history. I hope Bush's visit will act as a catalyst to get our own peace process back on track.

Anyone optimistic about the Irish peace process is either very naive or plainly does not understand Northern Irish politics. The problem is not guns but prevalent attitudes in society and the partisan politics of religion which are making the use of guns an option. There are small amounts of people on each side who ruin life for everyone else and then this manages to convince the voting public that they have to polarise to 'their side' - remove inflammatory rhetorical crap and you remove the problem. So much for freedom of media being a good thing in this case

bonkey

Originally posted by davelerave
there probably won't be any photo opportunities for peace protesters ,not even a press conference

Yup....except that its kinda hard to hid e where they're gonna land Air Force One.

Besides - even if ppl can't get on TV shouting at Bush, I'm sure they can find a nice big city centre to march in instead. Still pretty certain the get the coverage they want.

What would be really interesting is if there was a peaceful mass protest against the war of Unionists and Republicans alike. I doubt it will happen, but what a "Peace" message it would be...

Originally posted by Cork
If, George W Bush can get the IRA to disarm or join the policing board - his visit has to be welcomed

Agreed. No question. But what is the realistic possibility of that? What is the probability that his visit will spark off large-scale protests about the war which may distract from the prace process up north? What is the chance that it will actually make matters worse, if either side starts making an issue out of either the war in Iraq or the war on Terrorism?

Ultimately, while your statement is reasonable in and of itself, I would have to say that in my opinion the risks of making the situation worse far outweigh the possibilites for improvement, and that this is really just a PR exercise for Bush and Blair to try and convince people that they really do care about the diplomatic process of peace , so Iraq really is a special case.

Personally, I hope the visit is an outstanding success, because I'm loathe to think about how wrong it could all go....and am worried because I think the odds favour it going in that direction.

Hopefully, I'm just over-pessimistic.

jc

Sparks

f, George W Bush can get the IRA to disarm or join the policing board - his visit has to be welcomed

If I understand the posts on Indymedia correctly, the deal has already been agreed and the only effect Bush's presence is having is a destabilising one, because SF are now between a rock and a hard place - on one hand they've been decrying the Iraq war and on the other, they're now in the position of having to shake hands with the man that started it.

Cork

SF are now between a rock and a hard place - on one hand they've been decrying the Iraq war and on the other, they're now in the position of having to shake hands with the man that started it.

SF have links to an organisation that has illegal arms yet it can participate in Anti-War marches.

SF is very vocal on a range of issues yet it could not condedm IRA violence over 30 years.

SF got involved in Peace Marchs but never could get involved in the Peace Train movement.

SF are now between a rock and a hard place?

I think - SF need to accept no party/organisation should have access to illegal arms. The Good Friday agreement is over 5 years old & SF needs to accept there is no need for the IRA to hang on to these weapons. This also goes for other illegal groups in the North and the British army should cut back on their millitary presence up there.

You may dislike Bush - but next week the worlds media will be looking at our Peace Process. We need to set the world an example to what can be achieved. For the sake of Ireland & the World - Our peace process needs to be put back on track.

Sparks

Cork, please don't take my statement as support for SF, you'd be well off the mark if you did so.

You may dislike Bush - but next week the worlds media will be looking at our Peace Process.

Somehow, given the war in Iraq, I doubt that rather a lot.

daveirl

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Sparks

dave,
I'd hope you'd start with the quality of the sources on indymedia, since to do otherwise would be rather insulting...

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
SF are now between a rock and a hard place?

Well, what would you call it?

If we accept - for a moment - the assertion that the deal is already agreed, then what is the purpose of bringing Bush over here?

What is he doing other than increasing his visibility, and forcing SF into an impossible solution.

If they shake his hand, welcoming the deal, then they become hypocrites for berating the wrongness of the war.

If they refuse to shake his hand, then despite having already agreed to the deal, they leave themselves open to criticism for snubbing the man who is at the heart of the "war on terrorism", proving (in the new American use of the word) that they still have strong terrorist ties and havent abandoned their terrorist ways.

So, if the deal has been brokered, Bush's presence serves nothing except his and Blair's PR agenda.

If the deal hasnt been brokered, then his presence puts SF in an even worse position, as they have to be seen to negotiate with the man they are decrying as a war-monger....again boosting Bush's PR position and weakening any criticism SF can bring on him or Blair. Again, refusing to negotiate would sink them.

So tell me what the benefit is? All it serves to do is risk collapsing the deal, in order to try and gag a vocal critic of the war.

Whether or not you like it, the politics of the war cannot help but influence the situation. You know - a bit like your continuous assertion that the US/Ireland economic situation was not removed from the issue of our participation in the war. Political issues do not sit themselves in nice little boxes without overlap, and this meeting smacks of political manouvering.

jc

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Cork
THe US has played a vital role in our peace process.

Arguable. Certainly not at this stage, with the more active part in the peace process being played by Bush’s predecessor, who got lot’s of Irish-American votes for his troubles.

Let us not forget the role played also by Canada and Finland in the same process, but with less media coverage.

You think the war is illegal. That is your openion. Many hold a contary view that the war is legal owing to the fact did not immediately and totally disarm. This is another arguement for an other thread. This has nothing to do with President Bush's visit here.

Unfortunately there is a link in so far it is essential for any sponsor of the piece process to be a credible figure. The very fact that he will not be welcomed with the same degree of good will as other US presidents (even his father) cannot be ignored as an issue.

As for the legality of the war being derived by Iraq “did not immediately and totally disarm”, even the US administration hasn’t really pushed that one. There are valid legal arguments for the legitimacy of the present conflict, but that’s not one of them, Cork.

I hope the US administration will both learn from the NI situation and help solve a few issues that are causing difficulty between the various partys.

Regrettably, the message that has been sent out to the rest of the World by Washington is not one of the US Administration being interested in learning from other nations or cultures - And whether this is the case or not is immaterial, perception is all-important.

As such it is a legitimate issue to consider the viability of the US as a credible sponsor of the piece process, if she is viewed popularly as belligerent.