French antiwar protesters attack other antiwar protesters because they are Jewish

BattleBoar

LINK HERE


Ah the French, what a principled, moral people...



Jews attacked in French anti-war protests
By Kim Willsher in Paris
(Filed: 06/04/2003)


Street protests against American and British military action in Iraq have escalated into attacks by Muslim youths on Jewish demonstrators, sparking fears of a new wave of anti-Semitism across France.

The French government was forced to appeal for calm after protesters, some of them carrying pictures of Saddam Hussein, burnt the Israeli flag and turned on Jewish students, attacking one of them with an iron bar, during a series of anti-war rallies.

Officials fear that anti-war sentiment, supported by President Jacques Chirac, may be running out of control and could ignite widespread violence. Banners at recent demonstrations have shown the Star of David intertwined with a Nazi swastika, while protesters shouted "Vive Chirac! Stop the Jews".

In response, French police have announced the formation of a new unit to investigate "racist and anti-Semitic crimes", and stepped-up protection for synagogues and Jewish schools.

Jean-Paul Proust, the head of the Paris Prefecture of Police, promised the new unit would "systematically follow up all complaints".

President Chirac, whose bitter opposition to the United States-led military offensive in Iraq has won him almost universal support in France, has remained silent on the attacks, but his prime minister, Jean-Pierre Raffarin, sought to rein in public sentiment, saying that people should "not choose the wrong enemy".

Nicolas Sarkozy, the interior minister, also warned demonstrators not to use the war in Iraq as an excuse for violence. "Whether it is a case of French Muslims or French Jews, each has the right to pray, believe and live his faith as he sees fit," he said.

Public passions have been fuelled by anti-war rhetoric in the French media, which has concentrated on civilian casualties and highlighted setbacks suffered by the coalition forces.

An opinion poll in the newspaper Le Monde found that almost a third of French people wanted Saddam to win the war. Only 53 per cent wanted the Anglo-American forces to triumph.

The fears of increased anti-Semitism come only a month after the French foreign minister Dominique de Villepin allegedly told a group of centre-Right MPs that "the hawks in the US administration are in the hands of [Ariel] Sharon".

At a private meeting, Mr Villepin referred scathingly to the "pro-Zionist" lobby, including Paul Wolfowitz, America's deputy defence secretary, Richard Perle, who recently resigned as chairman of President Bush's defence policy review board, and Elliot Abrams, the head of the National Security Council, according to the weekly satirical magazine Le Canard Enchaine.

In his attempt to redress the balance, Mr Raffarin said last week: "We believe that this war was a bad choice - but the Americans are not our enemies. Being against the war does not mean that we want dictatorship to triumph over democracy. Our camp is the camp of democracy."

A government official admitted to concern about increasing tensions, particularly in the banlieus, the sprawling suburbs of France's main cities. In these areas of high immigration, police report a growing amount of anti-US, anti-British and anti-Jewish graffiti.

The official said: "It would only take a spark for this hostility to feed into uncontrolled forms of violence." Last week vandals defaced a memorial at a British First World War cemetery in northern France, daubing a demand that Britain "dig up its rubbish which is contaminating our soil" alongside a swastika.

Meanwhile, staff at the British Embassy in Paris have been advised to "play down our Britishness" after several reported being harassed.

At a security briefing they were told to avoid speaking English in sensitive situations, to avoid directing taxis to the embassy building in the rue Faubourg St Honore and to change their diplomatic car plates. The ambassador, Sir John Holmes, has been given extra French police protection.

Noam Levy, a 24-year-old French Jew, was beaten with an iron bar as he took part in a Paris protest and needed several stitches to his head. "As a Jew, I now know that I do not have a place in the anti-war protests," he said. "I was shocked by the comparison of the state of Israel to the Nazis and by anti-Zionist slogans."

The National Consultative Committee on Human Rights said that acts of violence against Jews and Jewish property in France had increased six times in 2002.

BattleBoar

This was posted in Humanities, but Devore said it should go in Politics....my apologies...

Samba

Ah the French, what a principled, moral people...

attacks by Muslim youths on Jewish demonstrators

Baby Jesus is crying as he does not like sweeping and unfounded generalisations!

BattleBoar

Originally posted by Samba
Baby Jesus is crying as he does not like sweeping and unfounded generalisations!

LOL. Well, based on what I know, I feel very comforatable with my generalization. The French seem to care about stopping the burning synagogues about as much as the KKK in the southern US cared about stopping the burning of black churches.

Violent hate crimes in France now is 4x what it was a year ago, the majority of which are of course against Jews. And, even though this specific attack was filmed, it got practically no media coverage and the organizers and attendees of the protest, including socialist prime minister Laurent Fabius, a Green Party presidential candidate, Noel Mamere, and socialist party leader Francois Hollande, wouldn't even condemn it until they got a visit from the mayor.

Sand

To be honest, do you expect much better from the French? - these lads pollute their own rivers and set trucks full of livestock on fire in protests and theyre allowed to get away with it.

Good thing Im not running the US, or itd be a case of first Baghdad, then Paris:D

Regarding the fact that anti-war protestors were taking lumps out of each other for whatever reason it just demonstrates how irrelevant the protestors are as some sort of barometer of public opinion - some of them are there on a principled anti war stance, others are there in support of Saddam as a "leader" of an arab nation attacked by the infidel trying to bring them democracy and legal rights - damn them!!!

shotamoose

Originally posted by BattleBoar
LOL. Well, based on what I know, I feel very comforatable with my generalization. The French seem to care about stopping the burning synagogues about as much as the KKK in the southern US cared about stopping the burning of black churches.

Did you miss the bit in your own post where it said that "In response, French police have announced the formation of a new unit to investigate "racist and anti-Semitic crimes", and stepped-up protection for synagogues and Jewish schools."

To be honest, do you expect much better from the French? - these lads pollute their own rivers and set trucks full of livestock on fire in protests and theyre allowed to get away with it.

Good thing Im not running the US, or itd be a case of first Baghdad, then Paris:D

Jeebus. Funny how the people who squeal so loudly about 'Anti-Americanism' think nothing of dismissing a whole nation of people as racists worthy of being bombed. What complete hypocrisy.

lili

yes, the frenchies eat little kids, they beat the women, the worst is that they don't eat ketchup. frankly guys, don't come in france, you will be in big danger!

seriously, what has happened is unacceptable! but it's the fact of racist people and don't represente the french nation or the french anti-war.
there is a lot of jewish people living in paris and i don't think they are unhappy to live here.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by BattleBoar
LOL. Well, based on what I know, I feel very comforatable with my generalization.

I assume you’re comfortable with being a racist bigot too.

Originally posted by Sand
Good thing Im not running the US, or itd be a case of first Baghdad, then Paris

Unless you are a US citizen, you’re not and you never will. Neither would you be enfranchised to influence US policies in any democratic manner.

Samba

Battleboar, are you American? noticed your spelling of generalization

Well, based on what I know, I feel very comforatable with my generalization. The French seem to care about stopping the burning synagogues about as much as the KKK in the southern US cared about stopping the burning of black churches.

Mmm, they are doing nothing about it, they are just going to sit back and see what happens:rolleyes:

You see this is where my problem with your statement is, you say French, whereby the incident involved Muslims who are abundant in France as they are in the U.K, the majority of the younger generation of Arab people living in France do have French citizenship but 90% of the time their parents were not actually born in France. You claim them to be French with no thought of other underlying issues which are present in the Country.


One of them being that their has always been tension between native French and French Arab immigrants and this is still present today as was clearly illustrated by this incident.


Many Arabs who I know in France do not consider themselves French and have retained nationality of their originating Country as many of them hate France and it's governing policies, but they are there due to their parents decision to try and look for a better life.

To be honest, do you expect much better from the French?

I am French Sand, what are you implying? while I do not agree with such conduct which you made examples of, what you have to understand is that throughout history French protests have always been on the extreme side, if they are not happy about a certain policy or actions for example the government try to impose on them, they stamp their feet and guess what, it works most of the time and they get what they want.

By what comparisons are you going by? because if you are by any, then it is pointless in doing so because each nation have their own ways in dealing with things, if you look at it and make an opinion based through your culture you are going to be quite blinded by your own Culture.

Well, based on what I know, I feel very comforatable with my generalization.

It is quite clear to me that you know very little on this issue or you would have at least taken the above in to consideration before making your sweeping generalisations.

Anyone can read a news article and make statements based on opinions formed from these articles and claim to have knowledge on the matters
[humour]
The Americans are especially good at this [humour]

Even in that article they wisely do not refer to the people in question as French, but as French Muslims, because there is a big difference and divide amongst the French and French immigrant Muslims residing in France.

*note- while this is not the case with all French muslims it is with alot of them and to some extent they have just cause to be angry with the French due to various reasons(another topic needed for this one)

bonkey

Originally posted by BattleBoar
Violent hate crimes in France now is 4x what it was a year ago, the majority of which are of course against Jews.

And would it be surprising to know that the following statement is also true :

Violent hate crims in France now is 4x what it was a year ago, the majority are of course by Muslim youths.

You're still making a massive generalisation by claiming that this is "the French", considering that the vast majority of the people perpetrating these crimes are relatively recent immigrants who are firmly maintaining their individual cultural identity.

jc

mike65

Polling shows how many French are actively hoping that Saddan wins, while they deface war graves of the British and US. Whatsmore it all smackes of oppotunism, nothing to do with principle. At least the government has issued statements condeming such behaviour.

Mike.

BattleBoar

Bonkey - notice I didn't say the average French were the ones perpetrating these acts, I said the average French don't care, IMO.

Samba - Yes, have previously stated such

Corinthian - Racist against who? The French? I personally don't consider the French a specific "race", although I suppose they could be characterized as such.

Shotamoose - no, I didn't miss it...read below


Here are relevant quotes lifted from an Article in Insight, a weekly mag of the washington times:

And so it went for nearly 18 months. The Representative Council of French Jewry (CRIF) has catalogued more than 1,000 violent threats against Jews and overt anti-Semitic acts. During the last three months of 2000 alone, physical violence included 44 firebombings, 43 attacks on synagogues and 39 assaults on Jews as they were leaving places of worship. And yet, for all of it, the French police made just a few dozen arrests.

An Interior Ministry report late last year concluded that the violence was the work of "petty criminals," not anti-Semites. "There was no rejection of the Jew," the author of the report, Khadija Mohsen-Finan, told the New York Times after interviewing nearly 500 young Muslims. "So far, the number of incidents has been small." French Jews were merely overreacting, she added, echoing public statements by leading Socialist politicians. "Are there verbal attacks? Sure. But that goes both ways," she said.

The "verbal attacks" Mohsen-Finan dismissed as "inconsequential" included such incidents as bands of young Muslim youths gathering in front of synagogues as Jewish worshippers emerged, chanting "death to the Jews." They also included anti-Jewish graffiti painted on the doors of Jews living in suburban housing complexes, bottles thrown from balconies at Jews leaving synagogues, insults shouted at Jews in the subway and on city streets and physical attacks against Jewish youths playing soccer at public fields.

This spring violence against French Jews reached new heights. Major synagogues were burned in Paris, Marseilles, Lyons and Strasbourg, and Jews regularly were attacked in the streets. When the French government still did nothing to quell the violence, the Wiesenthal Center issued a travel advisory warning American Jews against traveling to France. The American Jewish Congress (AJC) took out full-page advertisements in newspapers urging U.S. filmmakers and distributors to boycott the Cannes Film Festival. Chirac, in the middle of what at first appeared to be a difficult re-election campaign, furiously protested that France was not anti-Semitic.

"President Chirac was upset," AJC President Jack Rosen told Insight in an interview during a recent trip to Paris, where he was visiting again with French officials. "He and others in the French government realized that the public scrutiny exposed them and that they needed to react." Steps were taken after the presidential election to deploy 1,200 riot troops to protect synagogues and other Jewish institutions.

In other words, the French govt became upset only after receiving very negative media. Would they ever have taken action if not for the AJC? Of course, this is total speculation. My opinion is no.

A senior Israeli official who deals regularly with European governments warned that the wave of anti-Semitic attacks in France was not just the work of troubled Arab youths. "There are those in the French government who permit these acts to occur, who create an atmosphere of tolerance toward anti-Semitic acts," he said.

Retired Gen. Michel Darmon heads the France-Israel Association. He places the blame for the attacks squarely on Socialist officials such as former foreign minister Vedrine. "The French Foreign Ministry is not just anti-Israel, but anti-Semitic," he tells Insight. "France has a crushing responsibility for continuing the Middle East conflict, because they actively encourage the Arabs to the worst forms of anti-Semitism. The French message is that hate speech is legitimate."

Of course I would expect the Israelis to vehemently disagree with the French based on the French very vocally disagreeing with Israel policy. Still, I believe there is a strong element of truth to this because of the supporting evidence.

Thierry Keller is the treasurer of SOS Racism, a left-wing group seeking dialogue between Jewish youth groups and second-generation Arab immigrants, or beurs. Keller agrees that French anti-Semitism did not die with Adolf Hitler and Marshal Philippe PÈtain. "The fact that young beurs are carrying out these attacks is very convenient for the anti-Semitic Catholic elites. The beurs are inadvertently doing their dirty work for them," he says. Keller was brought up Catholic.

"Anti-Semitism is re-emerging because the old taboos against attacking Jews in public have been lifted. This legitimizes those who make intellectual arguments against Jews and makes it an open season for Holocaust denial and anti-Semitic attacks," Keller says.

Since late March, another senior French official tells Insight, new instructions have been given to courts and state prosecutors to crack down on those found guilty of anti-Semitic violence. A detailed compilation of these cases, made available by the official, shows 41 separate prosecutions between March 30 and July 2. In most cases, however, those found guilty of anti-Semitic violence received suspended prison sentences or probation, or were simply let go.

Many of the individuals caught firebombing synagogues in April still are awaiting trial. How they are treated by the French courts will provide the best yardstick for judging the sincerity of Prime Minister Raffarin's pledge to crack down on an anti-Semitic violence that has been tolerated for 18 months by the French political establishment from right to left.

But the latest statements by Chirac (who also refused a U.S. request to include the Iranian-backed Hezbollah in Lebanon on the list of international terrorist groups) augur poorly. Said Rosen, "For Chirac to say that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization because they have social programs is tantamount to saying that Hitler's Nazi regime wasn't all that bad because they also had social programs."

So a French official, once again responding to criticism, says they are cracking down, yet in the year since this article was written, the violence has increased 4 fold.

I'm not accusing the average French of perpetrating violence or even actively supporting it, I'm simply accusing them their government of not caring. I am also not surprised. I wouldn't go so far as to bomb them like Sand, because I personally don't believe in interventionism, but I have no problems with condemning them for their lack of action.

Von

Originally posted by Sand
Good thing Im not running the US, or itd be a case of first Baghdad, then Paris:D

If you were in charge of the US, we'd have about 7 consecutive world wars to look forward to, then when everyone's dead, you'd probably try to get the surviving vegetation fighting with itself. I dunno what your beef with the French is exactly. You're opposed to a multicultural/multiracial Ireland are you not? Just as a significant number of French people are opposed to a multicultural/multiracial France. Mainly because they're FN supporting foreigner haters. So you do have something in conmon with at least some French people after all.

Incidentally, Daniel Cohn-Bendit, leader of the French Greens, a jew, and one of the main people behind the Paris 1968 events had a debate recently with Richard Perle (who is also jewish I think) about the war. Link here. Perle lies a lot. Cohn-Bendit accuses the US of "revolutionary hubris".

"But recently, your government has been behaving like the Bolsheviks in the Russian Revolution. You want to change the whole world! Like them, you claim that history will show that truth is on your side. You want the world to follow the American dream, and you believe that you know what is best for Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Africa, Liberia, Yemen, and all other countries. Like every revolutionary, you have good ideas, but your problem lies in the means you want to use to realize them. Suddenly you want to bring democracy to the world, starting with Iraq."

Sand

Jeebus. Funny how the people who squeal so loudly about 'Anti-Americanism' think nothing of dismissing a whole nation of people as racists worthy of being bombed. What complete hypocrisy.

Ssssh Shot. Dont you know theres no such thing as anti-americanism?:)

Unless you are a US citizen, you’re not and you never will. Neither would you be enfranchised to influence US policies in any democratic manner.

Wow! Really?

yes, the frenchies eat little kids, they beat the women, the worst is that they don't eat ketchup. frankly guys, don't come in france, you will be in big danger!

Ive been to France, its where a lot of my dislike of the place and the people comes from:|

I am French Sand, what are you implying? while I do not agree with such conduct which you made examples of, what you have to understand is that throughout history French protests have always been on the extreme side, if they are not happy about a certain policy or actions for example the government try to impose on them, they stamp their feet and guess what, it works most of the time and they get what they want.

Im glad then its worth the needless suffering of animals or that its worth polluting their own waterways. People who carry out such acts and a culture which tolerates it is not admirable to say the least. And from what Battleboar is showing it seems its a culture that tolerates perhaps too much.

I dunno what your beef with the French is exactly.

Visit France and bask in their warm friendly nature Von:|

You're opposed to a multicultural/multiracial Ireland are you not? Just as a significant number of French people are opposed to a multicultural/multiracial France. Mainly because they're FN supporting foreigner haters. So you do have something in conmon with at least some French people after all.

Look at what Samba and Bonkey are doing- differentiating between French people and French Muslims and French Jews. Whilst left wingers have a nice hippy dream about everyone coming together and making daisy chains in the sunshine the reality - as shown by the hate crimes in France is very different. Do I want a situation where we have "real" Irish and "other" Irish? Christ no - I think we have had enough on our plate with Catholic/Republican/Gaelic Irish and Protestant/Unionist/British Irish, dont you? Oh yay- the joys of multiculturalism:|

When people dont have to explain social tensions between French people because one group of them are actually not French but rather French citizens who are Muslim, whereas the others arent French either but rather French citizens who are Jewish then there wont be a problem, but then it wont be multicultural either, will it:|

But dont worry your little head with such problems Von - because, multiculturalism is all good isnt it - its got loads of fluffy, vague undefined benefits and the problems - well theyre there but they *shouldnt* be there so lets just ignore them or call them horrid names and hope they go away. Grand so, sunshine.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sand
Wow! Really?

Yes. However, the point I made was obliviously not as evident (to you at least) as I had hoped.

As I said, assuming you’re not a US citizen, you do not and never will run the US. Neither are you or will you be enfranchised to influence US policies in any democratic manner. So if you disagree with a US policy, there’s frankly nothing you can do about it. And if that policy involves how you, your nation and your freedom will be defined for you, there will still be frankly nothing you can do about it.

The point is one of national self-determination, for good or for ill.

Ive been to France, its where a lot of my dislike of the place and the people comes from:|

Maybe it was just you Sand.

When people dont have to explain social tensions between French people because one group of them are actually not French but rather French citizens who are Muslim, whereas the others arent French either but rather French citizens who are Jewish then there wont be a problem, but then it wont be multicultural either, will it:|

Where multiculturalism goes wrong, and this has been debated here in the past, is where the other culture retains too much independence from the entire whole. This can result with a conflict of interests, and certainly should not be either encouraged or tolerated. This does not happen in all cases, it should also be noted.

But that is a different topic, and one that few states could claim to be immune from, whether from French Muslims favouring Arab nationalism over their fellow French (Jewish) citizens or Jewish-American lobby groups, favouring Israeli interests over those of their fellow citizens.

bonkey

Originally posted by The Sand
Look at what Samba and Bonkey are doing- differentiating between French people and French Muslims and French Jews.

Thats not what I did at all.

What I did was a small amount of research, and learned that the fact is that these crimes are being widely perpetrated by either first-generation immigrants, or (as someone else pointed out) children of immigrants, where the parent has citizenship, but not necessarily the child.

I simply pointed out that one can identify a clearly delineated social sub-group who is responsible for these crimes - just as (gasp, shock, horror) on can identify that those crimes have been clearly racist in nature, as there is a clearly delineated target group as well.

What would you prefer I do Sand? Apply the sweeping logic that "all French are violent criminals" as you seem to have applied your "there [sic] arrogant, snotty, unfriendly and plain rude glory" to them?

The simple fact is that there is a problem in France which is highly sensitive. You have a significant Muslim population, a large proportion of which is first-generation French, and which refuses to integrate into French society and accept the French ideals.

The problem is of such a nature that the police are swamped. Unless you'd advocate a police-state, there's no hope of implementing adequate policing....just a hope that rational heads can find a solution to the problem.

Interestingly, I notice that people are too busy blaming the French people and so on for having a police force that utterly swamped by this upsurge in violence (much of which is apparently in reaction to the increased levels of violence exercised by Israel in its "policing) to actually tell us how the problem should be resolved.

I'd love to hear the suggestions. Honestly. Armchair critics are all well and good, but if you're so quick to tell us whats wrong, then maybe you could all tell us how it should be fixed?

Ive been to France, its where a lot of my dislike of the place and the people comes from:|

I'm curious. Do you actually speak French, or did you base your opinion on the willingness and ability of the people you met to speak your language in their country?

I know you have friends who were thereand hate it too - cause we've covered that much of this before (like with arts students, you seem in capable of passing a French reference without lobbing an insult), but I'm just trying to figure out how you and your mates could come away with such a slanted notion.

jc

Hobbes

as I pointed out in the other thread, there are only three sites on the whole internet that have run this story. Not one was French, which despite what people may think actually do report stuff about thier own country.

There was also supposed to be a news crew there interviewing him when the attack took place. Although I was unable to find the name of the news station or what they were interviewing him about when he was at a supposed peace rally.

That's not to say it didn't happen but normally there is a lot more news on various sites, and I'd like to see what prompted a group to attack a person in front of a TV crew.

... actually I have found more stories but they seem to differ in what happended.

- One is where he was attacked himself at a peace rally
- another in front of a TV crew while at a peace rally
- another where he was taking pictures when attacked.
- another where he was taking pictures and stepped in to help someone else getting attacked.

HFXOC

I am sick to my back teeth of listening to Pro American Pro Israeli apologists venting their spleen on message boards like this. They roar ignorantly about Muslim fundamentalism this and Muslim fundamentalism as if this is the root cause of all the woes of the Middle east and the worls for that matter.

The bottom line is that US foreign policy prticularly with respect to Palestine is morally corrupt. Until such a time as that US politicians arent worried about the 'Jewish' vote in New York then the conflioct in the middle east will continue. The US vetoes every resolution of the UN with regard to Israel. They give them billions of $ every year to underpin the brutal unaccountable Israeli military and turn a blind eye to the acts of murderous criminality perpetrated against the Palestinians by the Israelis yet reserve the strongest invective and condemnation for suicide bombers.

Until such a time as observers speak and write in as equal a perjorative way about Christian fundamentalist and Israeli fundamentalists the whole issue is stagnant.

Perhaps Battleboar and his ilk should comment more about the Christian Crusade against Iraq as orchestrated by the WASP POTUS and his gilly in Downing street

bonkey

Originally posted by HFXOC
Perhaps Battleboar and his ilk should comment more about ....

And perhaps you should comment more about what is being discussed.

Not every thread has to devolve into the rights and wrongs of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict or the US' foreign policy.

We are discussing France, and a French problem here. If thats not to your interest, then go to a different thread, but stop dragging this one off topic to your own agenda please.

,c

Cork

Originally posted by bonkey
And perhaps you should comment more about what is being discussed.

Not every thread has to devolve into the rights and wrongs of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict or the US' foreign policy.

,c

I would agree. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is dragged into everything.

We had a lot of anti-Semitism in Europe and it is sad seeing it raising it's ugly head again.

There is no excuse for anti-Semitism.

shotamoose

Originally posted by Sand
Ssssh Shot. Dont you know theres no such thing as anti-americanism?:)

That's why I put it in quotes. You've been merrily labelling people as xenophobic with little if any justification - in fact, solely in order to silence anyone who dares criticize America - then you turn around and expect us to chuckle indulgently when you stigmatize an entire country based on what, exactly? A nasty holiday experience? Please. Clearly you're only interested in other people having to back up their opinions with things like reasons or facts.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Cork
I would agree. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is dragged into everything.

We had a lot of anti-Semitism in Europe and it is sad seeing it raising it's ugly head again.

There is no excuse for anti-Semitism.

Given that, in this case, it appears to originate from French Arabs, it’s not exactly anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is the classic manifestation of race hatred, something that would not apply here, as ultimately Arabs are also Semites.

Sand

What would you prefer I do Sand? Apply the sweeping logic that "all French are violent criminals" as you seem to have applied your "there [sic] arrogant, snotty, unfriendly and plain rude glory" to them?

Well, lets be honest - you say you didnt differentiate them and then you say you identified it wasnt French on french hate, but rather french arab on french jew hate. Im not criticising you for doing that, it is the reality after all - the fact you need to explain the violence and the tension just demonstrates the point I was making to Von.

I'd love to hear the suggestions. Honestly. Armchair critics are all well and good, but if you're so quick to tell us whats wrong, then maybe you could all tell us how it should be fixed?

Honestly my first preference would be to avoid the problem of significant multiculturalism altogether but that apparently makes me evil. Its apparently a good thing not to intervene abroad and instead just take in what ever misfortunates manage to escape from whaterever miserable regime they come from - which has a charming darwinist element to it:|

Seeing as its too late for the French - In my opinion, Frances swing to xenophobic politics isnt the problem itself, its a symptom of the problem; You could ban such parties but the tension and fear such parties capitalise on would still exist but would have one less fairly peaceful form of exspression - and they live in a multicultural society then there are two choices: heavy policing and zero tolerance which will hopefully eliminate the worst of the trouble makers. The problem is youll have the bleeding hearts bleating on about people being arrested for breaking the law and stuff.

Another option would be to abandon their national identity of Frenchness - wine, cheese, eiffel tower, berets and silly hooped shirts, bemusing arrogance etc etc - which is meaningless to the cultures which are now entering France and instead attempt to create another mono-culture which can provide a sense of identity to all French citizens - an example wouldve been Frances 1998 and 2000 trophy winning football squad which was drawn from pretty much all over the world, Zidane was of algerian descent wasnt he?

How successful such cultural engineering is or can be is up for debate, whether it is more effective than heavy policing of troublemakers is also up for debate.

I'm curious. Do you actually speak French, or did you base your opinion on the willingness and ability of the people you met to speak your language in their country?

My french at that time was passable at best, so we left most of the talking to the one who was semi-fluent ( a bit rusty but well able to hold a conversation). Plenty of the French could speak english so that wasnt a problem- if anything they seemed to take offence if you tried to speak to them in anything but english so I dont know.

As for language being a problem, I dont think so to be honest.Its more attitude. Ill give you an example. I used to work part time in Tescos, and when France was playing Ireland in the 6 nations wed get our fair share of French visitors. One of whom came up to me in the store and started playing charades because he couldnt speak a word of english it seemed. Being non-French and thus having some weird compulsion to help out visitors to my country despite the fact my French had declined awfully, I spent quite a while trying to figure out what he wanted until we discovered he was looking for pepper, smile and a thumbs up and on his way.

Whereas a friend of mine who went to France on a family trip was jeered out of a shop when he asked for bread in a shop, in french, which if not fluent was perfectly understandable.

Now bear in mind - I dont like the French, thats clear by now - but Im friendly enough not to simply go sorry pal, no comprende and walk off, let alone to sneer at him. You even compare their attitude to the Netherlands where *everyone* we met was friendly and up for a laugh.

That's why I put it in quotes. You've been merrily labelling people as xenophobic with little if any justification - in fact, solely in order to silence anyone who dares criticize America - then you turn around and expect us to chuckle indulgently when you stigmatize an entire country based on what, exactly? A nasty holiday experience? Please. Clearly you're only interested in other people having to back up their opinions with things like reasons or facts.

Eomer, meet Shot. Shot, meet Eomer. Why do I need to label anyone when they proudly declare it themselves? I refer you to the anti-american thread that was floating around a while back where a couple of posters nailed their colours to the mast.

And regarding your second point - course not, I dislike the french, everyone I know dislikes them, we all share the memory of visiting their charming country. Christ even people I dont know hate the place, as noted by the complete stranger we encountered on top of the arch de triumph who just said what everyone was thinking when he suddenly shouted to no one in particular "I cant wait to get out of this focking city!!!" Hell even a person from a French overseas department concurs theyre prats. Ive yet to meet anyone whose got anything good to say about them.

But, despite and above and beyond all that which is purely my own personal opinion on them as a people, I was talking about their attitude to the sufferring of animals and the pollution of the enviroment - all of which can be seemingly shrugged off with a grin "French will be french afterall". So why, exactly, should anyone be surprised that theyre shrugging off thuggery masquerading as politics?

Meh

Originally posted by Sand
Christ even people I dont know hate the place, as noted by the complete stranger we encountered on top of the arch de triumph who just said what everyone was thinking when he suddenly shouted to no one in particular "I cant wait to get out of this focking city!!!"

So did you visit anywhere outside Paris on your trip to France? I've been to France (although not to Paris), and your experiences do not sound familiar to me.

shotamoose

Your posts are becoming increasingly bizarre, Sand, keep it coming I need the laughs.

Originally posted by Sand
Eomer, meet Shot. Shot, meet Eomer.

Er, what? What's Eomer got to do with anything? You'll have to slow down and actually explain some of this rather than just spouting off.

And regarding your second point - course not, I dislike the french, everyone I know dislikes them, we all share the memory of visiting their charming country. Christ even people I dont know hate the place, as noted by the complete stranger we encountered on top of the arch de triumph who just said what everyone was thinking when he suddenly shouted to no one in particular "I cant wait to get out of this focking city!!!" Hell even a person from a French overseas department concurs theyre prats. Ive yet to meet anyone whose got anything good to say about them.

While we're telling touching personal anecdotes, I've been treated rudely in a French shop too. But it's funny, cos for some reason I didn't nourish that memory into a massive chip on my shoulder against an entire country. Y'see, I've met plenty of rude and/or arrogant French people but god knows I've met more rude and/or arrogant Irish people. Now, this might come as a big surprise so pay attention: I've got some good things to say about some of the French. Not all, mind, but that's because - and this might be another difficult concept - they're not all the same . Some are good and some are bad. Revolutionary, I know.

And why single out France for polluting the environment and animal cruelty when there's any number of other countries just as bad or worse? Maybe this is another traumatic personal experience you've somehow transformed into some grand political worldview? If so, I must admit that it's almost impressive, but also slightly worrying.

Samba

I really do not know where to start, Sand you are an ethnocentric and unless you start to go to a new school of thought I think you are going to hate alot of Cultures around the world as their actions displease you.

It is one thing not agreeing with them, it is another to judge an entire nation based on them.

How many times have you been in France? where have you visited and how long were your stays?

It is one thing to visit a country as a tourist, a very different matter to visit a country being able to speak the native language fluently, so we are bound to have different perspectives of that holiday.

French antiwar protesters attack other antiwar protesters because they are Jewish

I'm not accusing the average French of perpetrating violence or even actively supporting it, I'm simply accusing them their government of not caring.

Perhaps you should rethink that thread title if that is the case.

There are alot of misconceptions arising in this thread, too many to name and tackle and what is the point if they are backed with malice and hate.

none imo.

To hate a nation or country imo is very narrowminded and to make such statements is down right ignorant for the simple fact that you cannot judge an entire nation based on a tiny minority of that nation.

Samba

One last word, do you hate me Sand and everyone you know?

Interesting as to whether or not I see a response to that question.


and to Battleboar I repeat.....Battleboar, are you American? noticed your spelling of generalization

lili

i am french, i am very polite, i always try to understand what the foreigners say to me. i think i'm sweet:)

BattleBoar

Originally posted by BattleBoar
Bonkey - notice I didn't say the average French were the ones perpetrating these acts, I said the average French don't care, IMO.

Samba - Yes, have previously stated such

Corinthian - Racist against who? The French? I personally don't consider the French a specific "race", although I suppose they could be characterized as such.

Shotamoose - no, I didn't miss it...read below

Its very difficult to have any kind of meaningful discussion if one doesn't even bother to read responses. In the spirit of friendship, I will refrain from saying that your indignant tone regarding a question already answered is stereotypically french...

Samba

heh, I read your post, just not thoroughly, Curiousity more than anything, nothing to do with the discussion and I am making no judgement, I made no comments in relation to that post

Von

Originally quoted by Sand

Visit France and bask in their warm friendly nature Von:|

I’ve been there on many occasions for different reasons actually. I spent a particularly nice period of time in La Rochelle. All in all, I’ve found that the French are generally very friendly and hospitable, particularly when it comes to the Irish. I reckon you have to try very very hard to get them all to dislike you. How about this? One time when I was hitch hiking about with my mate looking for work, a chap gave us a lift to his town Montelimar (famous for nougat), made us dinner, bought us a couple of drinks, let us sleep in his flat and then went and asked his mate the police chief to find out if there was any work to be had for us locally. That doesn’t sound like the actions of a rude and arrogant people does it? That kind of civility was common enough that I was able to go from one end of the country to the other and back for the price of a few drinks and baguettes. Corinthian may be right, maybe it’s just you.

Look at what Samba and Bonkey are doing- differentiating between French people and French Muslims and French Jews. Whilst left wingers have a nice hippy dream about everyone coming together and making daisy chains in the sunshine the reality - as shown by the hate crimes in France is very different. Do I want a situation where we have "real" Irish and "other" Irish? Christ no - I think we have had enough on our plate with Catholic/Republican/Gaelic Irish and Protestant/Unionist/British Irish, dont you? Oh yay- the joys of multiculturalism:|

Waffle. You’re the one trying to ignore reality. This may come as something of a shock, but there are many people in the world who are different to you. And these days, as the wordl gets smaller, they’re free to move about more and more and seek to work and live here and there. So you’d better start learning how to deal with them. And watch La Haine while you’re at it. What do you propose? If a bunch of jews and arabs come here to get away from the bombing and bulldozing should they be kicked out in case they corrupt the country with their vile mumbo jumbo and weird traditions? Or what?