French antiwar protesters attack other antiwar protesters because they are Jewish

BattleBoar

To clarify my position, I definitely don't dislike all french people. I do dislike some individual french people I've met. But, some french people I know, I like quite a lot. I'm definitely opposed to some aspects of french culture, but who isn't opposed to aspects of some culture. Sure most people here have huge issues with at least some aspects of american culture as well...myself included.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
In my opinion, Frances swing to xenophobic politics isnt the problem itself,

Coming from someone who is so vehemently opposed to the notion of multicultiralism, I would ahve thought you'd be all in favour of a xenophobic political system....

...although I'd love to hear how France is Xenophobic with such a significant number of immigrants in the country......especially when the crime we see is not perpetrated by "immigrants out" supporters.

its a symptom of the problem;

Yes - I'd agree. Intolerance of, and fear of, other cultures is exactly the problem. Remind me again why you're against multiculturalism?

in a multicultural society then there are two choices: heavy policing and zero tolerance which will hopefully eliminate the worst of the trouble makers.

Rubbish. Show me a single place where this has successfully dealt with the problems of multiculturalism. No social problem is ever solved through subjugation.

Another option would be to abandon their national identity of Frenchness

Not only is your notion of "Frenchness" laughable (not funny - just laughable), but again you are so far off the mark with your solution it almost beggars belief.

Show me one nation where this has worked? Just one. You're listing it as one of the only two possible solutions, so I'm wondering....given the complete failure of extreme policing to do anything except subjugate a population or incite riot, this must be what was used successfully everywhere in history where multicultural problems have been tackled....only I cant think of a single place where it was attempted, let alone succcessful.

Surely you're not basing your "only two solutions" on an opinion which has no basis in history, and disregards everything which has been tried....especially those which have been successful?

Not only that, but in this case you're ignoring the fact (already pointed out) that the people perpetrating these crimes are recent immigrants, who remain seperate to the French culture.

an example wouldve been Frances 1998 and 2000 trophy winning football squad which was drawn from pretty much all over the world, Zidane was of algerian descent wasnt he?

So this would mean that the Irish culture is - in fact - about 70% english, given that this is where our football team mostly come from?

How successful such cultural engineering is or can be is up for debate, whether it is more effective than heavy policing of troublemakers is also up for debate.

You've just proposed them as the only two possible solutions. Now you say "its up for debate"? You really dont hold out much hope for this whole mixing of cultures thing, do you?

Only two potential solutions, both of which you admit are dodgy....its no wonder you dont hold out much hope...who could when you start from a position of "this wont work, and we cant make it work.

when he suddenly shouted to no one in particular "I cant wait to get out of this focking city!!!"

Because, as we all know, Paris is - in fact - the entirety of France, and it is impossible to get out of the city without leaving the nation of France.

Hell, I think Paris is a dump as a city, and that Parisians - taken as a collective whole - are a less welcoming lot than most of the rest of France. Most French readily admit there is a cultural difference between Parisians and the rest of France.

Regardless of whether you believe or accept that, I would still say that if Paris is the only place you;ve been to then you dont even have a frame of reference to classify all French. It would be like coming to a conclusion about "the Irish" as a nation from spending a bit o' time in Dublin (which I have always found to be one of the coldest and least welcoming places in Ireland...despite being from there).

I was talking about their attitude to the sufferring of animals and the pollution of the enviroment - all of which can be seemingly shrugged off with a grin "French will be french afterall".

Well, I havent seen you lining up to criticise, say, the US environmental policy recently, so I dont see why you should have a problem with the French over similar behaviour.

The US, for example, in 1994, had an average fuel consumption of between 19 and 20 miles to the gallon. The US have refused to sign on to Kyoto, mostly on the grounds of two reasons : 1) It is uncertain that things are really that bad, and 2) If things are that bad, it would cost too much to do anyway.

Generally this is shrugged off with "typical Americans, but what can you do" by those who dont like what they're doing, and "dead right" by those who support them. No different to what you're singling another nation out for here....but apparently thats not acceptable when its your behated French we're talking about.

I dont know who you see apologising for the French, but it sure as hell isnt you and your "Paris is France and its rotten" mates.

I havent seen anyone on here saying "ah, shur, its the Frenchies" recently either.

And I'm pretty sure its not the populace in general you're referring to. Last time I remember there being any sort of controversy over the French (which would have been the nuclear testing) most Irish people I knew were off refusing to buy French wine. Strange how they dont refuse their coke and fries over Iraq....but apparently that must be different, cause its the French who you think we let get off lightly.

So, exactly who and where are these French apologists Sand, and in exactly what way has France got off lighter than that bastion of good international role-modelling, the US???

jc

Sand

So did you visit anywhere outside Paris on your trip to France?

No, Paris was enough for me - any lingering doubts about the rest of the country were dispelled by the tales of visitors to the rest of the country.

Your posts are becoming increasingly bizarre, Sand, keep it coming I need the laughs

/me bows:)

Er, what? What's Eomer got to do with anything?

I just wanted to demonstrate that I dont have to label anyone anti-american when they do it themselves:| Not a major point- just you swung into action on that angle.

Not all, mind, but that's because - and this might be another difficult concept - they're not all the same . Some are good and some are bad. Revolutionary, I know.

Well Ill definitly allow that your theory might hold some weight, though as yet evidence is sketchy from what Ive heard. Ill have to put it to you that the only friendly person we met in France wasnt even French , but actually a Korean woman. Now amazingly that results in a much more positive opinion of Koreans than it does of French people. /me shrugs - when I cant find a single decent - willing to extend the basic friendliness other people (Not even Irish, the dutch were amazing to be honest ) take for granted - french person what exactly am i supposed to do? Base my opinion of *your* holiday?

And why single out France for polluting the environment and animal cruelty when there's any number of other countries just as bad or worse?

I didnt - just noted that when such appears to be accepted as as legitimate forms of protest why should violence based on ehtnic hatred be surprising?

I really do not know where to start, Sand you are an ethnocentric and unless you start to go to a new school of thought I think you are going to hate alot of Cultures around the world as their actions displease you.

Nah actually - Im not ethnocentric , I dislike the French but Ive plenty of time for just about every other people and culture. Hell, Im even polite and friendly to French tourists - got to give them an example if nothing else.

How many times have you been in France? where have you visited and how long were your stays?

I was in Paris - I stayed for 3/4 days and I literally could not wait to leave the place - the city itself was wonderful, the people were ignorant. I was actually tempted to go back recently but I was talking then to another person who was currently residing in the country and they again confirmed the sort of attitude prevalent.

/me shrugs - perhaps when I actually meet someone whose been to the country and reckoned the French were lovely Ill give the place another chance- until then Ill visit countries which have a handle on basic courtesy.

One last word, do you hate me Sand and everyone you know?

Heh, the amount of people I hate I can count on one hand:) And Samba you mustnt think that its anything personal - Its not as if every single French person I met was trying to be personally rude to me and others I know, they just appeared to have no concept of what I considered to basic friendliness. I just accept that they dont, based on my own experiences, on the experiences of others whove visited France or resided in it, and even the experiences of native French speakers. I allow for an individual to act as the exception but Ive yet to meet any.

How about this? One time when I was hitch hiking about with my mate looking for work, a chap gave us a lift to his town Montelimar (famous for nougat), made us dinner, bought us a couple of drinks, let us sleep in his flat and then went and asked his mate the police chief to find out if there was any work to be had for us locally.That doesn’t sound like the actions of a rude and arrogant people does it? That kind of civility was common enough that I was able to go from one end of the country to the other and back for the price of a few drinks and baguettes. Corinthian may be right, maybe it’s just you.

Heh Von I nearly choked laughing when I read that to be honest - what sort of jobs was he lining you up for?:)

But getting a bit more serious Von given how you love throwing the old insults around the cynical side of me isnt exactly surprised you get along famously with the French:)

And it might have been me. Thats possible. Doesnt sit well though with how well we got on with the dutch? Doesnt explain how everyone else I know of whose visited the place had negative opinions of the people - were they guilty by association even if I didnt know most of them at the times they were in France?

This may come as something of a shock, but there are many people in the world who are different to you. And these days, as the wordl gets smaller, they’re free to move about more and more and seek to work and live here and there. So you’d better start learning how to deal with them.

Ah now now sunshine, Im not opposed to immigration at all, Ireland needs to encourage immigration as the economy demands and it needs to accept its responsibilities towards refugees. Im just opposed to the ethnic tensions and and social stresses that come with muticulturalism. Personally I see no real benefit to multiculturalism - were all the same afterall, the world is a smaller place anyway - why the need for ethnic hatreds and race riots such as enjoyed by northern uk cities not so long ago?

Thats what I oppose, so stop with the pointless strawman tactics - just answer the hard question if you can. No-one has ever been able to show how Ireland is going to get it right when our richer and more experienced neighbours have got it so horribly wrong; I mean look at your attitude Von - You reckon you pile them in there, if someone doesnt like it TOUGH! and when the Irish extremist parties suddenly spring up and the tensions develop youll suddenly be wondering "WTF?!?!? I told them TOUGH, why are they still being argumentative about it!" I mean, what from your knowledge of Irish settled - travelling relationship makes you think multiculturalism is something Ireland needs?

When you can demonstrate how youre going to prevent the development of the sort of tensions and hatreds weve seen between the French arabs and the French jews ( Beyond TOUGH!!! of course), or even between Irish travellers and settled communities then multiculturalism becomes a non-issue for me as theres no benefit or loss to it so no reason to oppose it or campaign for it.

Feel free to keep on trying to paint me as the BNPs poster boy or something - Im sure thats an easier for you to cope with. Or you can actually address my point. Go on, surprise me.

Sand

Coming from someone who is so vehemently opposed to the notion of multicultiralism, I would ahve thought you'd be all in favour of a xenophobic political system....

Bonkey , Vons already gone down that route. Why are French citizens taking lumps out of each other on the basis that some of them are muslim and the others are jewish, and though theyve probably never really done anything to one another their "cultural identities" seem to indicate they shouldnt be getting on, and this is apparently stronger than their French identity which they nominally both share.

Multiculturalism perhaps? Ive no problem with the concept of multiculturalism as imagined by those who argue for it as an absolute good thing. Unlike them I see the problems that seem to be part and parcel of the deal - from the poorest countries to the richest. Seeing as were all the same how does it benefit us to "import" for want of a better word a culture which can often hold drastically different opinions on a wide variety of issues, and thus doesnt integrate with the native culture? - how successful has Vons attitude been where two or more cultures are just lumped together and expected to get along - and if they dont its blaming the symptom rather than the actual problem itself.

It can happen, but seemingly in remarkable circumstances, the american people are a mish mash of shared cultures and identities, British, Irish, German, African, and increasingly Hispanic - they actually built a mono-culture they all could contribute too and feel a part of - and even then there was huge tensions and continue to be in many ways.

Rubbish. Show me a single place where this has successfully dealt with the problems of multiculturalism. No social problem is ever solved through subjugation.

Well I was talking about application of the law and a heavy police presence - that you equate this with subjugation just demonstrates what i was talking about when i noted the difficulties with that option.

As for actual subjugation it apparently works a charm, though that doesnt make it much more attractive tbh - Tito kept Yugoslavia together for close to half a century, after it was liberalised it held together for barely half a decade in any meaningful sense. Same for the USSR, which no longer exists:| Even now, people have been noting the tribal nature of Iraq and how only Saddam could keep them ...united I guess. Even the kurds wouldnt have what freedom they did win without outside intervention.

Show me one nation where this has worked? Just one.

See above, the US created a colonialist identity, go-getters building a nation in an (almost) empty continent, which has since developed into the wonderful flag waving, freedom loving, entreprenuerial attitude so beloved all around the world. As for the Swiss, have they created a shared identity to which every culture has contributed? Im honestly not sure? Would the average citizen identify themselves as Swiss first and foremost or by their ethnic descent?

Not only that, but in this case you're ignoring the fact (already pointed out) that the people perpetrating these crimes are recent immigrants, who remain seperate to the French culture.

i.e. multiculturalism? Which is exactly what this thread has developed onto? Im not ignoring it - its a perfect example of the problems attached to multiculturalism.

So this would mean that the Irish culture is - in fact - about 70% english, given that this is where our football team mostly come from?

Given what music we listen to, what tv we watch, what papers we read, and even what football teams we support I wouldnt think youd be all that wrong actually. Cuturally were about as independant as the Welsh or the Scottish which isnt surprising given our nations histories, weve all got our own little bits and pieces but we all share the English culture to some degree.

But the point I was making was that given the diverse nature of the French football squad every French citizen, even those who werent part of the dominant culture could feel it was in some way representing them and it didnt belong purely to say the native french or to the arabic french. Thats the sort of shared experiences that would be neccessary to build a mono-culture that they could all feel a part of. I remeber at the time the French leadership ( Could have been Chirac, though I dont think so ) specifically hailing the diverse make up of the squad for similar reasons.

You've just proposed them as the only two possible solutions. Now you say "its up for debate"? You really dont hold out much hope for this whole mixing of cultures thing, do you?

Not really. Human nature being what it is afterall.

Only two potential solutions, both of which you admit are dodgy....its no wonder you dont hold out much hope...who could when you start from a position of "this wont work, and we cant make it work.

Actually it would be - "This has almost never worked, and where it has worked to any degree its been a hell of a lot of trouble".

The main problem is that whilst Ive offered two possible ways to make it work, youve done your best to shoot them down without actually volunteering anything to the brainstorming session. This leaves us with Vons philosophy of like it or lump it - and an unfortunately proportion of people seem to go for the later leading to immense human misery. Now whilst we know theyre wrong, calling them nasty names isnt going to change anything. Its a great exscuse for a protest march though.

Regardless of whether you believe or accept that, I would still say that if Paris is the only place you;ve been to then you dont even have a frame of reference to classify all French.

But the people whove been outside Paris do - and pooling our shared knowledge weve come to a shared conclusion.

Well, I havent seen you lining up to criticise, say, the US environmental policy recently, so I dont see why you should have a problem with the French over similar behaviour.

/me shrugs - when theyre polluting rivers to protest being laid off I dont think its even a enviromental policy issue anymore. When theyre torching animals to protest imports I dont think its a trade policy issue anymore.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
this is apparently stronger than their French identity which they nominally both share.

I've already pointed out that the problems - for the vast majority - arise from recent immigrants. They (or sometimes just their parents) have French citizenship. This does not mean that they have any French identity.

You're putting the cart before the horse here from what I can see - if they had a "French identity" (i.e. were integrating themselves into the culture), they probably wouldnt be involved in these problems. I know thats only speculative, but the point I'm making is not that they are putting something before their French identity, but rather that they dont have a French identity - merely Fench citizenship.

The problem with dealing with these issues is obviously how to minimise the disruption caused by this "lag" of presence vs cultural identity. There is a fine balance between not letting the immigrants get walked over by a society who can treat them as the new kicking boy (if you simply take the "immigrants are to blame" stance) and getting walked over by the immigrants (if you take the "we have to treat them with kid gloves" stance).

Where all of this came from is that the people causing these problems are not - in any culturally meaningful sense - French, and the French (IMHO) have managed to make a complete cock-up of how this all came about. You get no disagreement from me on that one. Where I disagree is that this is anything "typical of the French" as the original slant was put on the thread.

Its not that the French dont care about their Jews, nor anything like that. Its that they have a problem of their own creating that they are only now realising they are not coping with, and they are looking how to change their approach to deal with the problem without just changing who the victims are.

It can happen, but seemingly in remarkable circumstances, the american people are a mish mash of shared cultures and identities, British, Irish, German, African, and increasingly Hispanic - they actually built a mono-culture they all could contribute too and feel a part of - and even then there was huge tensions and continue to be in many ways.

So - what you're saying is that they struggled through all of the cultural "wars" (and there were plenty) to emerge as a "mono-cultural" society?

Given that your argument for social development is that all the emerging economies should go through their "growing pains" as it will benefit them in the long run (cause our nations all did it and look where it got the US), surely then we should be saying that multicultural tensions are also a necessary growing pain which we have to get through to emerge with something worthwhile.

If sweatshops, and the wests exploitation of them are ok because they are an analagous to our own workhouses during the revolution, why then are the growing pains which the US went through not what we should all suffer in order to get where they went?

Well I was talking about application of the law and a heavy police presence - that you equate this with subjugation just demonstrates what i was talking about when i noted the difficulties with that option.

You talked about a heavy police presence and zero tolerance to deal with the problem.

The thing is that unless you apply those criteria to all aspects of policing, you are targetting a specific subsection of society for "special treatment" - something which doesnt work, as people start noticing the disparity between the policing and sentencing of one part of society and another for equivalent crimes....something which isnt exactly synonymous with "equality" which is supposed to be a tenet of the free world.

So, do you think society at large will accept far harsher policing and zero tolerance across the board in order to deal with a specific problem?

When you follow the logic, you typically end up with a situation where heavy policing works only when people are too scared to break the law, rather than because they respect it.

That, in my book, is subjugation - its fear of reprisal, not willingness to abide by the law.

As for the Swiss, have they created a shared identity to which every culture has contributed? Im honestly not sure? Would the average citizen identify themselves as Swiss first and foremost or by their ethnic descent?

A bit of both really.

The consider themselves Swiss and of an cultural grouping. There is the same good-natured slagging between Swiss French and Swiss Germans as there is between (say) Corkonians and jackeens. However, when it comes to referenda and so on, there are clearly defined cultural voting tendencies.

Those who are of more recent immigration "waves" may consider themselves both Swiss and of their original culture.

The most recent immigrants consider themselves immigrants from a particular culture.

In each of these waves, there is typically an increase in crime and so on with the arrival of a new cultural group. These problems typically go away after one to two generations, as the incumbent culture settles down and its members begin to integrate themselves into a society which is willing to include them and treat them equally and fairly. They start being "Swiss and <insert cultural background here>", and thats just fine with everyone.

The point is that as each new "wave" brings its own problems, the Swiss don't go "Oh no, multiculturalism doesnt work....kick them all out and lock the doors". What they say is "Give it (and them) a chance - we know it will work and ultimately be to everyone's benefit". To date its worked. Each culture has retained many facets of its original form, and yet has also become "Swiss".

Its not a black and white distinction where you can just say "well, thats really monoculturalism", or "no, its definitely multi-cultural". There's a good mix of both in there - and perhaps thats a part of the reason it works.

Thats the sort of shared experiences that would be neccessary to build a mono-culture that they could all feel a part of.

Actually, I would have said that its a shining example of how you can be both part of a national identity and culture without sacrificing your own culture - multiculturalism at its best. It is showing people that you can rise above your cultural diversity, work together in a national spirit, but without sacrificing what you believe in, where you came from, or what you are.

[
The main problem is that whilst Ive offered two possible ways to make it work, youve done your best to shoot them down without actually volunteering anything to the brainstorming session.

In my opinion, Ssocial inclusion is the only possible manner in which the problems of multi-culturalism can work - a society which welcomes the immigrants, and which genuinely offers them something, and is willing to accept that these people will not simply "blend in" invisibly, but will retain aspects of their own culture and lifestyles.

Yes, policing is important, but only to the extent that it is applied uniformly across society. Again, Switzerland is a good example. Immigrants are not specifically targetted for policing. Trouble spots (i.e. locations) are targetted, but for whatever reason they occur - there's no special treatment of immigrants, and policing levels are not what I would call "heavy" or "zero tolerance". Maybe its just our definitions of the terms which are the problem....my dad has always said that he couldnt live here because the Swiss have a law for everything and they actually expect you to keep them all. Maybe it is what some would consider "zero tolerance", but when I see police just telling people "dont smoke that stuff on the train or next time we'll have to charge you" I find it hard to believe its "zero tolerance".

The other major thing Switzerland does is sensible limitation of numbers. No "open door" policy here - something which I agree with fully.

Its not a perfect system, but no system can be. It has problems. There are those who oppose the current system in Switzerland. However, it actually works....and mostly because people have learned that these things take time to settle down, and that they should give the incumbents a chance before passing judgement.

After that, they leave it to the relatively solid social services system and well-run police force to make it clear that immigrants get no special favours. The end result is that the unwelcome elements quickly get found and deported for breaking the law enough, or decide not to come here in the first place because the system isnt too easy to cheat for a living.

You wont see a Swiss judge refusing to revoke a 16-year old's residency permit for repeated legal infractions, just because he doesnt want to split the family up. Its very simple - you step across a certain line, and you're dealt with. (If you were a Swiss or a naturalised immigrant, you'd be in jail, if you're on a work permit, you're deported and will never be given a permit again.) If the family decides it doesnt want to be split up, they can all choose to leave - thats up to them.

The point is that the Swiss have a system which works well in the first place, and which immigrants can be incorporated into in controlled amounts, and the public are willing to give it the time it needs to work.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
when theyre polluting rivers to protest being laid off I dont think its even a enviromental policy issue anymore. When theyre torching animals to protest imports I dont think its a trade policy issue anymore.

OK - fair point. I agree - such actions should be dealt with, just as the Irish should have arrested the taxi-drivers when they illegally blocked roads during their strikes, but didnt.

If you look at most western nations where there are protests of this nature, the police are generally forced into taking a step back, less enforcing the law makes the overall situation worse. Its an unfortunate side-effect of politics and policing interfering with each other.

Yes, the French do seem to be particularly noticeable in this arena, but if we're talking about the importance of stuff on such a small scale (i.e. protestors carrying out individual acts), then surely issues like national policy (i.e orders of magnitude more impact) should be orders of magnitude more important?

So its fair criticism that you're making, but it still seems like you're looking to the mote in your neighbour's eye....

It just come across to me like complaining that your neighbour is p1ssing into a stream cause he's unhappy, when you are dumping industrial waste into it as a matter of policy.

jc

Sand

I've already pointed out that the problems - for the vast majority - arise from recent immigrants. They (or sometimes just their parents) have French citizenship. This does not mean that they have any French identity.

Shouldnt they though? Isnt that the basis of multiculturalism? Were all french but my family comes from normandy and has its own customs and tradtions whilst yours comes from algeria and has its own customs and traditions? Ive no stats at hand for those engaged in the violence but Id assume the majority of the arabs were young and were first generation French - or at least have spent the majority of their life in France, as opposed to their parents who were the actual immigrants. Why have they a stronger loyalty to their arab ancestry when its quite possible theyve never been outside of France?

Thats the problem with multiculturalism as advocated by its fans - its assumed immigrants will automatically "become" irish with a funny accent, that their kids will never consider themselves as anything other than Irish with only a nod to the culture or region their parents left behind; that has and will probably happen with diverse immigration (from a wide diversity of cultures) as the there is no community for immigrants to rally around except the native Irish one which they integrate into.

If you go to the French perspective where arabic-french from a significant percentage of the population and more importantly can be assumed to be heavily concentrated ( I remember hearing over half the school children in Paris were of arab descent ) you get a community around which a culture can support itself, leading to multiculturalism and ... fairly predictably to my mind....tensions society doesnt need.

Where I disagree is that this is anything "typical of the French" as the original slant was put on the thread.

Ah. Well thats not quite what I said...

To be honest, do you expect much better from the French? - these lads pollute their own rivers and set trucks full of livestock on fire in protests and theyre allowed to get away with it.

Which was in response to Battleboars noting of either how inept or how indifferent the French establishment seems to be in response to the attacks, at least until theyre embarrassed into action - given the anything goes standards Im not surprised at all.

Its not that the French dont care about their Jews, nor anything like that. Its that they have a problem of their own creating that they are only now realising they are not coping with, and they are looking how to change their approach to deal with the problem without just changing who the victims are.

Good for them, and I honestly hope they find a solution - I just hope that they dont become so singleminded about one set of problems they ignore other victims for fear of making the problem theyve set their hearts on worse - from what Battleboar quoted it seems as the French work on the arabic community their inaction may cause resentment and dismay in other communities. As you note later, a balanced approach is the key - that doesnt mean arresting crinimals on an equal opportunities basis to my mind but simply arresting those who commit a crime without playing community politics whilst doing it.

Given that your argument for social development is that all the emerging economies should go through their "growing pains" as it will benefit them in the long run (cause our nations all did it and look where it got the US), surely then we should be saying that multicultural tensions are also a necessary growing pain which we have to get through to emerge with something worthwhile.

Youre not really comparing like with like there in my opinion. Economic development has real and tangiable benefits for peoples standard of living, whereas Im still lost as to what the upside to multiculturalism is ..... we have a load of people from a particular culture living next door - ummm, great... how is that better than having say some boring old neighbours from cork next door? If there was a real benefit to multiculturalism Id say grand, growing pains but it will be worth it in the end. I just dont see how it will be?

So, do you think society at large will accept far harsher policing and zero tolerance across the board in order to deal with a specific problem?

Id advocate zero tolerance in response to crime in general - something I think that society at large would accept and most likely support. A balanced legal system will arrest you and jail you if you commit a crime and they wont if you dont - and they shouldnt care what ethnic grouping your from and they shouldnt care if an ethnic group is over-represented so long as theyre confident the convictions made were solid convictions. Anyone involved in the fighting that broke out should have been arrested and trialled as a matter of course. now of course a reporter out to make a name for themselves or our good friends in the alternate media would have a field day but since when are they the people the legal system are accountable to?

When you follow the logic, you typically end up with a situation where heavy policing works only when people are too scared to break the law, rather than because they respect it.

People are supposed to be scared of breaking the law to my mind. Its not respect for the law that stops me from hitting the first person who annoys me when Im having a bad day, its the fear of winding up in jail for doing it.

It is showing people that you can rise above your cultural diversity, work together in a national spirit, but without sacrificing what you believe in, where you came from, or what you are.

Wouldnt that only work for short term goals - like lets put aside our differences for the campaign ( something previous dutch sides havent been able to do ), and do something great for all of us, but when its accomplished and the buzz has worn off the differences are still there?

Argh - its late - ill get back to the rest again.......