weights or cardio first?

skydigifan

I have been going to the gym since january and my usual routine is to do cardio first, 30 treadmill,17 bike and 17 cross country walker, then i move onto the weight machines,my ultimate goal is to tone up loose some fat and put on some muscle,is this the most efficient way of doing it or should i vary cardio second etc, or does it not make a blind bit of difference,
suggestions appreciated,
cheers!

tunney

I don't know which is the most effective order - cardio then weights or weights then cardio. But I do know which is the safer ordering. Weights first then cardio. Do some cardio to warm up, then do your weights and then your full on cardio session. A more tired body is more likely to cause damage to itself than a fresh one.

Imagine you're lifting weights and because your arms or legs are tired you drop the weights? Imaginge your abs and back are knackered from doding abs before weights and you can't give your back the support it needs when doing resistance. You could f*&k yourself up.

My two cents.

Jak

You shouldn't be doing cardio and weights back to back regardless. You will never get a great deal of benefit that way.

At the most you should do a morning evening split, and even then generally the only people who do that are fairly serious trainers/athletes. Assuming you are training correctly and putting the effort in, you shouldn't be doing back to backs at your stage.

Also 62 mins of cardio is a lot for someone who is starting out, I would suggest you are probably not pushing yourself too hard to be able to do this at this stage in your training. I see lots of folk in the gym who sit on bikes and various machines for ages without ever really looking like they are working at all. Push yourself.

Try doing a single tougher 40min session twice a week and putting your weights on three other days. Train weights day - cardio day - weights day - cardio day - rest - weights day - rest ... or something similar.

JAK.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Jak

I suppose I have a different perception of weight training to many people. But then I (not being egotistical) tend to get excellent return to the work I put into my weights sessions.

At the end of any of my weights sessions, cardio is simply not an option, I am spent, energy and drive is all gone.

To a similar degree after 40mins on a bike or 30mins on a rower I would be pissing away my time in the weights room due to lower drive and energy.

Ideally you should not train them back to back. Morning evening split at the most.

JAK.

logic1

Originally posted by Jak

At the end of any of my weights sessions, cardio is simply not an option, I am spent, energy and drive is all gone.


JAK.

Same here, at the end of a weights session I'm lucky to be able to take off my t-shirt in the chanigng room never mind hit hard cardio for 45 minutes. I actually had to rip a t-shirt off last week because i couldn't get it over my head after shoulder day.

.logic.

skydigifan

Thanks for the advice guys,
I think i kinda knew myself that cardio and weights training in the one day wasnt a good idea but its what came with my personal plan. I suppose i had better designate cardio days and weights days but which will be better for overall results,2 cardio days,1 weights day or vice versa,can make it to the gym @most 3 days a week for 2 hours,

Appreciate the advice!

skydigifan

Thanks for the advice guys,
I think i kinda knew myself that cardio and weights training in the one day wasnt a good idea but its what came with my personal plan. I suppose i had better designate cardio days and weights days but which will be better for overall results,2 cardio days,1 weights day or vice versa,can make it to the gym @most 3 days a week for 2 hours,

Appreciate the advice!

Jak

2 weights 1 cardio and try to be more active day to day.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Benbaz

This is totally unrelated to the question in hand or anything to do with fitness for that matter..........but,

when quoting something that somebody else said how do you get the "as quoted by x" in the text????

B.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Benbaz

Originally posted by daveirl
Click on the 'quote' button in the bottom right of the post you want to quote from.

Tadaa!!!

Cheers!!

Trojan

Originally posted by logic1
Same here, at the end of a weights session I'm lucky to be able to take off my t-shirt in the chanigng room never mind hit hard cardio for 45 minutes. I actually had to rip a t-shirt off last week because i couldn't get it over my head after shoulder day.

.logic.

Hehe, it's a great feeling though

I wear a running singlet thing that stretches but doesn't tear - handy enough.

Al.

uberwolf

don't forget to warm up and cool down properly before weights regardless, @ least 10 mins cardio either side, and some streching between exercises too.

tomED

Originally posted by skydigifan
my ultimate goal is to tone up loose some fat and put on some muscle,is this the most efficient way of doing it or should i vary cardio second etc, or does it not make a blind bit of difference,
suggestions appreciated,
cheers!

If you ultimate goal is to loose fat and gain muslce dont' combine cardio and weight training at all!

You should first do a bulking up plan for about 4 weeks just lifting weights change your diet to get more protein in your system to help build muscle.

Then you should go back to cardio after 4 weeks and light weight lifting (which should feel more like a cardio workout thatn a weight lifting session) change your dite back to a low fat one and voila youll see a major difference in your body.

In fact if your goal is to only loose weight and build muslce you dont have to do any cardio exercises. Weight lifting burns more calories than cardio exercising.

While doiing cardio and weight lifting cobined you run the risk of buring MUSCLE as opposed to fat whilst doing cardio exercies.

Jak

If you ultimate goal is to loose fat and gain muslce dont' combine cardio and weight training at all!

Not true, cardio and weights can be very effectively combined, this post was relating to back to back in the same session cardio and weights.

Weight lifting burns more calories than cardio exercising.

This is not true. It is entirely dependent on the level and type of training.

While doiing cardio and weight lifting cobined you run the risk of buring MUSCLE as opposed to fat whilst doing cardio exercies.

Again this is not the case, maintain a healthy balanced diet ensuring enough energy for your sessions, and you will likely reap greater benefits from a combined program.

tomED

Sorry Jak,

I don't know where you get your information for - but after 2 years of doing this I have found this has benefited me most and is contantly what I am being told from my trainers, books and magazines.

Dya what actually - i found there is a lot of this since I took up training. Everyone has a different opinion on what is best for you etc. IS there a forum where people can be united on one belief?

I usually use the mens health bulletin board on their site for a source of information.

Anyway - i can get information to back up my theories if you want me to post the links here?

Jak

Please do post the links.

I have been training for about 10 years and very seriously for the last 6. You made some blanket statements without any caveats attached that were simply wrong.

Correct training is more than just saying do cardio or do weights. The type and intensity of training, as well as rest, physical state at the start and diet all play a role. Suggesting cardio will burn muscle is the sort of extreme scenario that people would take out of context and will spread as a myth. The reality is muscle burning only occurs at the extreme end of the scale, think marathon runner doing a PB. Hence for a general trainer doing a 10mile run with proper diet there is no concern.


When you say weight lifting burns more calories than cardio, this is again a loose statement. Weight training in general may result in more muscle mass which in turn leads to a higher aggregate level of calorie burning, but in a given isolated session cardio may burn more. But again, it depends massively on the types of training and duration involved. If you want to make such a statement put down the comparative sessions used to be clear.

Magazines are good for information, but they are not always gospel. As you said there is generally a lot of disagreement between people on what works, generally due to misinterpretations. The core basics remain true and most of the debate is on fringe issues.

In any case, this is my board and I moderate it according to my own knowledge.

JAK.

tomED

Originally posted by Jak
Please do post the links.

In any case, this is my board and I moderate it according to my own knowledge.

JAK.

LOL - class.... i think moderate is the wrong word... it should be dictate!!! lol

No seriuosly - fair points, but as i said i was always led to believe differently. I will of course come back later with links to numerous health sites saying otherwise.

But i guess the one thing that comes through strong here is really the lack of knowledge for everyone. Next time yer in a gym look at the trainer telling someone how to lift weights for example. More than likely they are teaching the customer bad habits and bad form.

Where do you generally get your information from?

Jak

I agree, many gym instructors give awful advice and know no better. Please don't bother posting links unless they back up what you said - which remember had no caveats attached.

My own knowledge comes from years of being involved in the whole thing from natural bodybuilding to just general training. Also my brother runs a sports supplement company which means we try to stay informed of supplement and diet research.

In addition, I have a healthy interest in the area and read up on things in a range of magazines from men's fitness to flex to health journals. Plus after years of training, I have tried and tested a lot of things that have worked and not worked and built up knowledge that way.

As regards dictating rather than moderating, yes, probably more of the former. I hate loose comments such as the ones made, because they end up in the gym's and do more harm than good.

JAK.

tunney

TomEd, weight lifting builds more than a cardio session? So if I went to the gym and did a quick set of bicep curls thats more calories that running a 10k race? Even if there was an equal amount of time spent on each activity I still seriously doubt that the weights session would burn more calories. I had this argument with a complete knob-end a few months ago who didn't know his arse from his elbow, of course I'm not suggesting the same about you.

As for magazines, pick up a body building magazine - weight lifting is the ultimate exercise, now pick up a running magazine - running is the ultimate exercise.

tomED

I will obviuosly only post items that back up what I have said.

But i do value and respect your opinion - however i still don't agree with you entirely. Reason being is that I have talked to a lot of people that would disagree with you.

Maybe if I met you I would realise that you are right if your physical appearance shows it. The advice I got is from people who also have your experience.

So maybe the question should really be.......... who the hell is telling the truth????

Dictating a board is a bit sad though really when you think of it. Boards are places where people should be allowed to pass on their knowledge and opinions without someone deciding that their opinion is wrong. The advice I received has allowed me to develop my body into something that I am happy with - so why is my opinion wrong?

tomED

ok maybe i didnt put it a cross properly... maybe i am a knob-end.. lol

AS i said this was the advice given to me - i took it on and it helped me gain the body i wanted...

i was very overweight at one stage and the advice i got helped me reduce my weight and build muscle.

a ten k race takes more than half an hour so yer average weight lifting session is 30-45 mins.... so in that timeframe you would run what? 6k?? i dunno not a keen runner. (i do run, but not into it as much as my mates are!)

Strenous workouts apparently (starting to doubt my instructors wisdom) burn more calories...

tunney

When I had this argument a while back about which activity burns more fat we came up with a simple soultion - my heart rate monitor can estimate calories burnt in a workout based on height, weight, age, max heart rate and VO2 max. Can you see where I'm going with this?

tomED

Yep - sounds like something that makes obviuos sense.


Look im not trying to say that i know best or nothing. One person in particular that i have gained my knowledge from is a chap on the mens health boards. He is apparently about to launch a book he has wrote and he seems very knowledgable.

and he has a lot of respect from other people on the boards.

A match up between mister dictator here and anthony would be amazing. I beleive all of us could learn a hell of a lot!!!!

and thats all i want to do!!

so sorry if i have peeved anyone off!

but i got yes talkin didnt i!

Jak

Originally posted by tomED
Dictating a board is a bit sad though really when you think of it. Boards are places where people should be allowed to pass on their knowledge and opinions without someone deciding that their opinion is wrong. The advice I received has allowed me to develop my body into something that I am happy with - so why is my opinion wrong?

I 'dictate' when something is black and white. Fitness boards are fine to discuss things, but if you read the charter, the goal is to keep misinformation and loose comments stamped out. Blanket statements are pretty dangerous, so be a little more specific if you want to discuss the pros and cons of an area of training.

Also, while training you have done may have yielded positive results, this is not to say you weren't making mistakes or getting the most you could from your training. You said yourself you were very overweight, any excersise would likely have yielded big gains.

People debate best practice all the time, but I'm sure if you put people in the know together - the key points would always be agreed on when everything was teased out.

JAK.

tomED

I'm sorry but what i have seen and you have said it yourself, there is a lot of misinformation regarding fitness everywhere you look - so i don't believe one persons idea of what "black and white" is, is a true reflection of their professionalism or a true answer to theior question.

thats why boards are so popular they allow people to give ideas of what has worked for them and give an opinion on something.

and you agree ath if people in the know got together that they would all eventually agree on key factors.... but i know for a fact that someone i have learned from would not agree with you.

How do you decide who is right or wrong then?

well you can, cause you dictate this palce. But at the end of the day something has worked for me. as tunney pointed out i could have got their easier maybe - but i did the someone just like you told me and i got results from his techniques does this mean i am wrong and he is wrong also?

we could be hear all night talkin about this.

so just retract my intial reply if ye want, but i will still stick to what i have been told as it continues to work for me! if you can suggest something better i will by all means try it out and report to you on my progress...

I can be yer little test dummie! lol

Jak

If you ultimate goal is to loose fat and gain muslce dont' combine cardio and weight training at all!

Weight lifting burns more calories than cardio exercising.

While doiing cardio and weight lifting cobined you run the risk of buring MUSCLE as opposed to fat whilst doing cardio exercies.

These were your three points. This is what we are talking about. They are vague blanket statements that can easily be misinterpreted. I answered them and stated what was wrong with them in an earlier post. It is black and white in this case.

If your friend thinks the above in the form they were posted is 100% accurate and good advice, he is wrong. They are vague and misleading.

JAK.

Amz

I'm going to have to agree with Jak on this!

I'm studying sports science and health in DCU and have done many hours of research and testing into these areas.

TonED you need to back up your statements with more concrete physiological evidence. To be fair you're just going by what other people have told you but maybe before you start disagreeing with someone like Jak, who is clearly very qualified to advise, then research your points before making them. Your statements are far too broad and this area is not at all as black and white as you seem to claim it is.

If your ultimate goal is to increase hypertrophy then why can't someone combine cardio work and weight training?

Specificity is important as is variety in any exercise Cardio training is important for general fitness if nothing else, by increasing cardio endurance a persons capacity to supply oxygen to the body will improve thus improving their capacity to cope with heavier loads.

tomED

Originally posted by Amz
To be fair you're just going by what other people have told you but maybe before you start disagreeing with someone like Jak, who is clearly very qualified to advise,

And so what are you going by??? What people tell you? I thought so.....

Anyway case was closed as I said ill act as a guniea pig for JAK if he is interested. See who's advise will work better.

My point that i have to keep getting across is - it works for me.

By the way i love the play on me name! TONED! ha ha rock!!!

Amz

The people whos information I go by have studied and researched this area for years.

I think you'll find the information to answer your question here it should hopefully open on the page which lists the lecturers for my course and their qualifications, if it doesn't simply click on the Staff link on the left of the page

tomED

thats great, but again these are only human beings such as ourselves.

you have heard from people....

i just look at the computer industry and see sprogs coming out of college and they havent got a clue about computers in the real world... so i have no respect for lecturers, lectureres tend to be miles behind that latest fad.

in fairness i would respect JAK's opinion a lot more than any lecturer becuase he works in the indutry....

tunney

Amz, if you want someone to experiment on with regard to fitness testing look no further. I've been trying(via Michael in the gym) to get "work" as someones guniea pig!!! Any chance???

tunney

TomED, you have no respect for lecturers in the computer industry? Please, I could ignore your offensive attitude with regard to fitness but please try and hide your ignorance. Try making friends here, you'll get a lot more help.

Amz

Hehehe thanks tunney!

I'm a little busy for the next month what with exams and the like but I'll give you a shout over the summer and try sort something out!

TomED the lecturers for my course would be more than qualified to advise/educate on such matters because they have spent such extensive periods working in the industry!!

I don't know if you follow GAA or anything but my Anatomy lecturer is Dr Noel McCaffery he is the physiotherapist with the Dublin senior football team, Niall Moyna has worked with elite athletes such as Lance Armstrong how can you say if you have read the web page that they are not qualified because they haven't worked within the industry????!

tomED

Tunney sorry - i dont have respect for lectureres in the computer industry. again thats my opinion.

i originally built up one of irelands leading computer firms and have just left to embark on a new career and every single student that came to me from college looking for a job was terrible. They had been thought badly by their tutors.

its the same for most industrys -

sorry thats my opinion - if i am offending people by having an opinion maybe these boards arent the right place for me.

i prefer places where you can voice yer opinion without someone classing it as an insult.


JEEZZZZZ i think ill get outta here and never post agin.

before i do

I APOLOGISE TO ANYONE I HAVE OFFENDED! DIDNT MEAN TO - JUST TRYING TO GET MY POINT ACROSS - ALBEIT BADLY!!

SORRY!

tunney

Amz, well then tell Dr Noel McCaffery to slap the dubs around abit and tell them to get their ass in gear and stop playing ****e!

Amz

TomED it's more the fact that you are making such blanket statements and seem to be dismissing other peoples opinions so quickly without acknowledging them.

I do not respect certain people who come out of the third level system with a degree thinking they know everything! I don't claim to know everything but I think in this area it is important to back up statements with evidence other than "it worked for me" because how then can someone come along and compare their application of your training programme to anyone elses how do they know that they are achieving optimum results? How do you know that you are achieving the optimum? You said yourself that ou were perhaps a little underweight at the moment and you achieved that weight from your programme and that you were however happy to remain underweight?

I don't mean to come accross as a bitch that wasn't my intention, but I just feel you yourself should be a little more open to other people opinions!

tunney

TomEd, I'd be interested to hear which company was this "one of irelands leading computer firms".

on a different point, with regard to the quality of students graudating this is a very real problem, one which I have experience of. But this is not a result of the quality of lecturer(no I'm not a lecturer just a postgrad) but rather a mentality whereby students and passed, bumped up and allowed to get through the course because high failure rates stop students doing a course. In every course you will find the elite few that have understood their lecturers and who have learned what was there to be learnt. These are the good students, the ones that deserve jobs and the ones that are suffering because of the general retards that decided that computers was the jobfor them. In short the problem is the students rather than the lecturers.

Amz

Originally posted by tunney
Amz, well then tell Dr Noel McCaffery to slap the dubs around a bit and tell them to get their ass in gear and stop playing ****e!

Well ya see if I was to do that tunney I'd be going against my principals, being from Kildare and all....

tunney

Kildare? Oh right then, cancel that request about getting fitness tests done. :P

tomED

id prefer not to say the company if thats ok - going through a bad detachment process at the moment. They are causing me a lot of **** basically......

its easy to find out though wihtout me stating the name - past 2 years tech fast fifty (top ten)

anyway - yes maybe it is more of a reflection on the students. BUt again my experiences have made me belive differently... at one stage in college i was showin my fookin tutor what to do... thats not right.... and im sure it wasnt an isolated incident

tunney

"im sure it wasnt an isolated incident", shsssssh you're fond of the generalisations.

tomED

Amz,

I'm not offended at all - free speech is something i belive and i love nothing better than someone disagreeing with me. Best way to get a conversation out of someone.

I guess my biggest mistake was how i approached posting a message. i obviuosly made out that i didnt respect anyone s opinion - which believe me i really do!!!

i came to get information - not just to pass an opinion.

but i did it wrong and hopefully people can accept my aplogy!

if not - ah well....

tomED

Originally posted by tunney
"im sure it wasnt an isolated incident", shsssssh you're fond of the generalisations.

LOL - im starting to get a picture of how i went wrong now!!! sorry.

It was proably an isolated incident... is that better? lol

tunney

as one of those "fookin tutors" i'd have to say yes, yes it is better.

Amz

Well the tutors I had were only post graduate students so I wouldn't put them in the same boat as the lecturers. Tutors are very often not qualified in any way to teach through experience or otherwise so I wouldn't pay any heed to bad experiences with them.

Oh and tunney G'wan teh Lillies!!

tunney

"Well the tutors I had were only post graduate students so I wouldn't put them in the same boat as the lecturers. Tutors are very often not qualified in any way to teach through experience or otherwise so I wouldn't pay any heed to bad experiences with them."

I wholeheartedly agree, I don't know many times I or my friends have been lashed into a tutorial or lab by a lecturer or admin person, when we know nothing about the subject or even what the subject is. Anways back to work........

Jak

Once again, gonna let this thread drift away.

Thanks all.