I'm so happy about todays events I dont care about the anti war ppl!

mike65

Suddenly all the hand-ringing and Richard Boyd Barretts
of this world mean nothing, I dont care what they think or say. I'm just very happy.

Mike.

Éomer of Rohan

What a relevent, mature and post which obviously has a point which can be discussed at length and with intelligence.

dathi1

I'm happy he’s gone..even though the people who kept him there for 30 yrs have now taken him out. However hold your happiness until this 3 tier country sorts itself out...it aint over yet.

Éomer of Rohan

I dont care what they think or say

And Mike has the gall to call me narrow minded?!?

BattleBoar

While I am hopeful, please remember that before the war, everyone was saying that the real difficulties would come after the regime had been dispatched.

The attempt to introduce democracy into a largely nonindustrialized society is something that I don't believe has been tried before. I will withhold my judgement until we see what kind of government the US, UK, and Iraqis build. Remain hopeful, but remember that this is a very daunting task...much more daunting than winning the war to precede the reconstruction.

Éomer of Rohan

I think Iraq is quite industrialised actually and need I remind everyone that democracy was in use before the Romans invaded Brittanica, before gunpowder, before Charlemagne I etc etc etc. That is to say about 2100 years before industrialisation was thought up.

BattleBoar

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
I think Iraq is quite industrialised actually and need I remind everyone that democracy was in use before the Romans invaded Brittanica, before gunpowder, before Charlemagne I etc etc etc. That is to say about 2100 years before industrialisation was thought up.

Fair enough Éomer, I will amend my post to include the phrase, "In modern times", and, "modern representative democracy." And I suppose I was comparing Iraq's level of industrialization to that of Japan or former West Germany, the two cases where introducing democratic government by force actually worked.

Note, however, that the ancient democracies weren't very democratic to the captured slaves that served the citizens.

TomF

I'm happy too, and wish best of luck to the Iraqi people as they begin a new life free of a despot.

Éomer of Rohan

I'm happy too, and wish best of luck to the Iraqi people as they begin a new life free of a despot.

I believe that once upon a post, Tom F called me naive for one of my views. I would reciprocate in this case but I feel it unnecessary. Are the Iraqi people really free? I think that remains to be seen but I will say what I have said in other posts - if America pull out of Iraq completely and do not interfere with elections and allow any person to stand for an elected post and pay for the damage they have wreaked on that country without using this as an excuse to force through 'structural readjustment' then fair enough. I am 99% sure they won't.

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
I believe that once upon a post, Tom F called me naive for one of my views. I would reciprocate in this case but I feel it unnecessary. Are the Iraqi people really free? I think that remains to be seen but I will say what I have said in other posts - if America pull out of Iraq completely and do not interfere with elections and allow any person to stand for an elected post and pay for the damage they have wreaked on that country without using this as an excuse to force through 'structural readjustment' then fair enough. I am 99% sure they won't.

Firstly in relation to Mikes opening at the top of this thread, as a supporter of the liberation of Iraq, he's more than entitled to be cracking open the bottles of champagne, tonight.......and then posting after he has drank them:D

On a more important note, the coalition has it's work cut out for it now, to nurture, the support it got on the streets of Baghdad today.
honestly, I never though I'd see the day, that on the streets of the capital of an Arab country bordering Syria and Iran, you'd have people kissing American Marines and shouting We love you Mr Bush.
It's a mad, mad world but not necessarily a bad one.
Sadam must have been a Very, Very bad man, to have Shia muslims behaving in this way.
mm

Éomer of Rohan

On a more important note, the coalition has it's work cut out for it now, to nurture, the support it got on the streets of Baghdad today.
honestly, I never though I'd see the day, that on the streets of the capital of an Arab country bordering Syria and Iran, you'd have people kissing American Marines and shouting We love you Mr Bush.
It's a mad, mad world but not necessarily a bad one.
Sadam must have been a Very, Very bad man, to have Shia muslims behaving in this way.
mm

It won't last and it is not the whole or even the majority of the population.

Firstly in relation to Mikes opening at the top of this thread, as a supporter of the liberation of Iraq, he's more than entitled to be cracking open the bottles of champagne, tonight.......and then posting after he has drank them

I think that if he did any of that, then he would be very insensitive considering the number of people dead in the conflict - it is not as though it was a war on the epic proportions of WWII. As to supporting the 'liberation' of Iraq, again, I wonder how far the 'right' will justify the invasion once American intentions are exposed through the behaviour of her corporations and her puppet government.

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
It won't last and it is not the whole or even the majority of the population.

Be gorrah, Éomer, I didn't know you were posting from Iraq, turn off that generator, thats running your computer then, it's drowning out the cheers outside!

I think that if he did any of that, then he would be very insensitive considering the number of people dead in the conflict - it is not as though it was a war on the epic proportions of WWII.

I do not agree,for to say that would be the same as saying those who were out on the streets of Iraq today,were also belittling, those in the hospitals by celebrating a brutal dictators downfall.
mm

Éomer of Rohan

Be gorrah, Éomer, I didn't know you were posting from Iraq, turn off that generator, thats running your computer then, it's drowning out the cheers outside!

Be gorrah? Please.

I do not agree,for to say that would be the same as saying those who were out on the streets of Iraq today,were also belittling, those in the hospitals by celebrating a brutal dictators downfall.

I think they are.

Éomer of Rohan

I think that at this point it is necessary to point out the latest bombing in Afghanistan - with 11 civilians killed this morning. I think celbrations over Iraq are just a little pre-emptory.

yes, lets not be fooled , by todays events, that things are looking up in the world.

This is the latest government warning in the philipines:
http://travel.state.gov/philippines_announce.html

On March 4, 2003, a bomb exploded at the international airport in Davao, Mindanao, killing at least 20 people, including one American, and injuring over 140 others. Another bomb exploded shortly thereafter in Tagum, the capital of Davao del Norte Province in Mindanao, injuring several people. These incidents follow a bombing outside the Cotabato City Airport on February 20, killing at least one person and injuring twenty others. The Government of the Philippines condemned these bombings as acts of terrorism. During October 2002, at least 20 people were killed, including one American soldier, and more than 100 people were injured in various bombing attacks in Zamboanga City and the surrounding area, and in Kidapawan, Cotabato Province. Similar explosions occurred in December 2002. Other explosive devices have been discovered and defused prior to detonation in these and other areas of Mindanao.

Two dangerous anti democratic groups with similar methods to Al Queda operate there

The terrorist New People's Army (NPA), the military arm of the Communist Party of the Philippines, operates throughout the Philippines and has issued public threats against U.S. citizens and interests in the Philippines....
The terrorist Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG) has issued public threats against U.S. citizens and interests in the Philippines.

mm

gandalf

Yes I am glad it appears to have ended earlier than expected. It will save alot of civilians being slaughtered. However I hope this isn't the case of the Angle-Americans blowing the trumpet early. There seems to be plenty of fight still on the outskirts of Baghdad.

Those people shouting for Bush and Co could just as easily turn against them if they suspect they will be around longer than they are welcome.

Gandalf.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
I think that if he did any of that, then he would be very insensitive considering the number of people dead in the conflict - it is not as though it was a war on the epic proportions of WWII. As to supporting the 'liberation' of Iraq, again, I wonder how far the 'right' will justify the invasion once American intentions are exposed through the behaviour of her corporations and her puppet government.

Not all the 'right' have been in favour of this war. Pat Buchannan, for example.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by gandalf
Yes I am glad it appears to have ended earlier than expected. It will save alot of civilians being slaughtered. However I hope this isn't the case of the Angle-Americans blowing the trumpet early. There seems to be plenty of fight still on the outskirts of Baghdad.

An unknown, still, is the extent of foreign idiologically motivated groups in the city.

Hopefully they will be handed over by their neighbours or they will get sense and leave.

It will also be interesting to see what happens in Tikrit. They might decide to defend Saddam in an effort they must know to be futile, or they might turn against him violently in an attempt to redeem themselves in the eyes of the Shia. I think a lot of it depends on what they are aware of going on in Baghdad.

kaimera

twas indeed a great day for the Iraqi people.

It was some sight watching them cheer while the statue of Saddam was pulled to the ground and then they proceeded to kick the crap outta it.

people power.

[CALIBUR]

it was great sight to see on tv

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

Quick hello to all the old boards.ie crew, jc & bugler in particular

Originally posted by BattleBoar
Note, however, that the ancient democracies weren't very democratic to the captured slaves that served the citizens. [/B]

Heh, democracy in of itself is not required to be fair Battleboar. I doubt those prisoners at Guantanomo bay are feeling particularly well dealt with by democracy. Democracies all over the world employ the death penalty- and it was we, the United States one of the modern "champions" of democracy that slaughtered 2 million Vietnamese (mostly civilians) in the name of bringing democracy to another country. Bloody Sunday and the Amritsar massacre respectively were both atrocities perpetrated by democratic regimes. Totalitarian regimes tend to be insular about their human rights abuses- keeping it within their borders. Modern democracies on the other hand, seem to like nothing better than a good ol' foreign war. Saddam may have been content to brutalize his own people in a random arbitrary fashion. Far from tackling him in a civilized way- we decide to do exactly the same thing! Intentionally targeting civilians or otherwise- the architects of conflict admitted publicly that even the lowest estimates of civilian loss of life ran into the thousands.

Is it worth the price? I don't think so- the justification for war seems to shift almost weekly. WMD, far from being the main focus of the conflict has been relegated to a secondary position behind regime change. I'm astonished by what kind of idiots our leaders think we are. Comparisons with "appeasement" and WWII's sacrifices are equally moronic choices of argument by the political class. National survival is not at stake here- it was then. A military power capable of imperialist ambition- that *is* the case today, only it isn't Iraq

This push to "democratize" is nothing new- its architects at the Pentagon are recognizable relics of the Cold War. Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz and others like them played key roles in "democratizing" Central and South America- particularly Chile. The Middle East too as it happens- Rumsfeld's stated hope in a policy paper to the Reagan administration was that arming Saddam Hussein and pushing him towards an alliance with the United States would encourage Iraq towards a more democratic posture.

How times change eh Rummy? Dunno about you guys, but one of the funniest sights I have ever seen in American politics ever was last week. Donald Rumsfeld, he of 50,000 tonnes of sarin fame- accusing the Syrians of supplying weapons to Iraq! Rumsfeld negotiating weapons sales 15 years ago with Iraq on a massive scale, and now the Syrians appeared to be doing the same. IS NOTHING SACRED?!

Ok, enough of being facetious. As far as the cheering crowds go- consider this. Shia muslims cheered the loudest when Israeli tanks entered Beirut. There were unreal scenes of jubilation in the streets on a far grander scale than was seen here. Yet after 15 years of bloody street conflict the Israelis quickly realized how short-lived jubilation under occupation can be- and withdrew. Catholics greeted British troops with joy in the late 60s and early 70s, hell, the Vietnamese in Saigon were practically dancing in the streets when US forces deployed. Those same Vietnamese civilians after 2 years of war- given the choice between a foreign army and their countrymen chose the latter.

The point of these lessons from history? Well quite simple really- a few television pictures of jubilant Iraqis does not convince me this war was worth the price. Freedom to starve, freedom to be occupied by a foreign power, freedom to loot and be looted. That last problem is ironically the toughest to solve logistically. A single pure infantry division + one armoured division simply can't police a city of 5 million people. Barely a word of Arabic between all 90,000 of them, no understanding of city zoning, local customs or traditional Iraqi law. There is no possible way a legitimate police force can be established within one or even two years.

As for those who would defend the Bush administration, I would advise you to carefully read the Project for New American Century website: http://www.newamericancentury.org/index.html

In particular, read the archived policy letter written to President Clinton in 1998(letters section), calling for a war of regime change in Iraq. Then take a look at the signatories to this neoconservative political cabal. This war was almost 10 years in the planning, almost since sanctions began this same group of people were advocating just such a war. They've had a long time to plan it- that so much has gone politically wrong along the way merely confirms how out of touch with reality these plans were. Yet justification was conjured up with the aid of 9/11 plus specious containment failure accusations and away we went. Here's a quote from the PNAC mission statement, its final conclusion in fact:

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next.

There you have it- a military conflict that belonged in the Cold war era has found its way into the 21st century. The hawks have had their way- and if history repeats itself, George Dubyah and his neoconservative friends may not be around to pick up the pieces. The tragic irony is that history probably won't repeat itself politically speaking given the current climate. Where George Bush Sr., acting with prudence, diligence and careful foresight failed to win a second term- I have no greater fear as a US citizen than his son having failed on all those grounds, yet succeeding on election day where his father failed.

simon_partridge

Originally posted by BattleBoar
The attempt to introduce democracy into a largely nonindustrialized society is something that I don't believe has been tried before.

Well it did happen in Ghana, but over a very long time scale. The largely good intentioned dictator Jerry Rawlings had taken over in a coup in 1978 and attempted to introduce democracy a year later, but it proved a disaster, so he took power back in another coup in 1980, then phased in democracy ten years later (which resulted in him being elected president), before finally stepping aside entirely in 2000.

de5p0i1er

Its a day worth celebrating when a tyrant dictator is overthrown, and people can live free from fear of been killed for speaking there mind.

Its a day worth celebrating when a tyrant dictator is overthrown, and people can live free from fear of been killed for speaking there mind.

i agree with the 1st part, but the 2nd? Do you really believe anything has changed? Saddam is gone, but his cronies still live in the shadows. Also the US hasn't demonstrated that they want the Iraqi people to speak their mind. Should the Iraqi people suddenly start speaking out against the Coalition in large numbers, do you really believe that the US will allow it?

mike65

Originally posted by klaz
i agree with the 1st part, but the 2nd? Do you really believe anything has changed? Saddam is gone, but his cronies still live in the shadows. Also the US hasn't demonstrated that they want the Iraqi people to speak their mind. Should the Iraqi people suddenly start speaking out against the Coalition in large numbers, do you really believe that the US will allow it?

On radio this morning the following exchange was highlighted -

Iraqi "For the first time in my life I'm free to speak my mind, and I want you to leave my country"

US Soldier - "Get a ticket, and I'm on the first plane out of here"

Firstly in relation to Mikes opening at the top of this thread, as a supporter of the liberation of Iraq, he's more than entitled to be cracking open the bottles of champagne, tonight.......and then posting after he has drank them

I was drunk on Victory...;)

Seriously though it was an off the cuff gut posting.

Since before the war started ppl like Robert Fisk and many others predicted an long protracted campaign with millions being turned into refugees, hundreds of thousands dying and the US getting bogged down in a Vietnam style quagmire.

It seems clear enough none of the above is correct.

Its plainly not over and the US/UK will have to work as hard to win the peace as the war, if not harder. Turkey is already playing silly buggers and many more will be looking to exploit the power vacume in the next few weeks.

Mike.