Reclaim the Streets

DadaKopf

As usual, this thread is beginning to become an argument about Garda conduct and the right to protest.

I don't know why, but the critics of RTS here always seem to frame it this way. It's like a kneejerk attempt to delegimise the event so they don't have to bother understanding any of it, let alone find out that some of these 'crusties'' ideas might have something to them. It's a very Irish reaction.

Always with these threads (and there's been something like 3 or 4 RTS threads on here over the last year), people just don't want to listen. Half the argument on this thread is fuelled by people not understanding each other or simply not wanting to. Read people's posts properly before barging in.

For a good background, the other thread is more informative than this one. And the link posted by honkdub at the beginning: http://rts.gn.apc.org/evol.htm.

Then maybe we could get a discussion going instead of beating out clichés.

TacT

1) I don't drive
2) I cycle

3) It's not up to me to decide what others want to do, much less get a huge group of people together to tell other people what they should do or how they should travel and neither should you, via protest or a treehugging hippyfest as has been proposed or any other means. (sorry if that offends you but that's what last years crowd looked like to me and anyone else with a bit of grey matter between the old cauliflower bits

4) This is nothing but an excuse for a party and a bit of attention from everything I've read.

5) I know a lot of crusty students/unemployed people/respectable people that went to rts last year but the entire crowd smells mostly of hippy and that's not gonna get anything done for you due to the image and what you call "atmosphere" that was created at the last one and may possibly happen again this year.

6) You don't really seem to have a definite Goal here with any kind of plan for time or anything else.

7) Cars piss me off and I piss them off, it's unintentional. It doesn't give either party the right to demand the other be taken off the road anywhere and it's certainly nothing to "have a party" over.

8) If you want to be taken seriously maybe you might want to try and create a crowd that people won't instantly find offensive or dirty etc ESPECIALLY with regards to the police, remember, people like them too and they're an inevitable part of society so I suggest you learn to live with them and possibly even at some stage, respect them as they do you.

9) You have no right to disturb people going about their business and it just makes you look selfish and stubborn - ps - the big bongs and smell of hash/weed in the air does nothing for your cause either I might add, unless your looking to legalise cannabis..

10) I'm finding the whole thing very amusing but I won't be going along because I don't support your idea's/ideals. Maybe you should form a cult or something, you'd probably have more success Or lobby for the legalisation of cannabis, I dunno, get some realistic goals damnit, cus your not gonna get cars off the roads, it's pretty simple, but I must repeat what others have said, the roads were made for our cars. I know it's a tough concept but it works quite well despite the congestion :rolleyes:

How do you expect to be taken seriously?


Down with that sort of thing Tm

/me looks around, yup [/endrant]

mazzyianne

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Come on. This is absolute tripe. How can somebody actually write this, read it back, and post it!!!!

So, what your proposing is that a 1000 people (at least) should be permitted to release their anger, in whatever street they like.

So, as opposed to a "safe zone" to release your anger ............ would ye like a dangerous zone ! Maby if we gave ye o'connel street at 5'o clock to let of yer built up steam, and release yer anger. I mean it would only be fair!!!

Can I just say that I sympatise and agree with many of the ideals behind the FTS protest, but any protest must recognise the rights of non-protesting people to about their daily business.

And therefore should be organised in consultation with the Gardai.

We're obviously coming at this from very diferent perspectives.
I really dont even know where to start to explain.

I wasnt suggesting that everone be allowed run riot. Read the rest of my post, you took it completely out of context. I was trying to explain my reasoning behind why protests get violent.
I was trying to explain how frustrating it is to protest in the usual way. Ive been interested in various issues for years, mainly anti-war stuff but other things too. One day you just realise that protesting doesnt make any difference.
Your being allowed to protest because thats the law. So they give you a time and space to vent your anger and make your point without getting any point across to the people who can change the problem. You turn up, shout a bit and go home feeling better (supposedly) and think, well Ive done my bit' when infact you have done nothing.

I wasnt implying that people should be allowed to rampage throught the streets. Im saying that our anger is misdirected - it is up to the protesters to find new ways to get a point across. To direct the message towards the people who have the power.

In future please read my comments before you reply to them and I wont have to repeat myself. And dont put words in my mouth - 'so what you're proposing' etc.
Thanks

bonkey

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Come on. This is absolute tripe. How can somebody actually write this, read it back, and post it!!!!

Did you report the post? No

Are you a moderator? No

Does our charter tell you that everyone has a right to hold and express an opinion - ill informed or not - regardless of whether or not you agree with them? Yes it does.

Next time, stow your righteous indignation and try a bit of common politeness instead, or reporting the post if you have a real problem with it.

The same goes for all of you. Might_Mouse is not the only person stepping close to the edge here.

Isnt it ironic that I have to get engaged in repeat moderating in a single RTS thread for what could be termed "minor disturbances" ....where it would appear to be the opponents of RTS who are getting moderated, and the RTS people who get cast as having no respect for the rules or the rights of others.

jc

Borzoi

Originally posted by kitty-kat

I want Carfree cities, I want an egalitarian society. VALUES have to change first. I want people to wake up and realise how powerful and beautiful and intelligent we are all capable of being, I want everyone to live in a Sustainable and low impact way, I want world peace. I’d like bigger tits but we can’t have it all.

Okay, my own opinion is that a carfree city is impossibe, longterm. However would you be willing to settle for a carfree day, once per month, say last Sunday of every month between noon and 6pm. See how it worked and then extend on reduce it as required.

TBH unless you start putting some concrete proposals forward, and stop trying to change the world in a single act you'll just lose credibility.

I'd like smaller tits, but then, I'm a bloke

kitty-kat

BORZOI: Okay, my own opinion is that a carfree city is impossibe, longterm.

KK:Then please take a look at Carfree.com. You would be amazed. It never ceases to amaze me how willing as a species we are to congratulate ourselves on how sophisticated we’ve become – we haven’t even got the basics right! The technology to achieve these things is there, it comes back simply to a misappropriation of interest & funds. Up until 100 years ago all cities were car free! and they didn’t have the knowledge and tools we do.

BORZOI: However would you be willing to settle for a carfree day, once per month, say last Sunday of every month between noon and 6pm. See how it worked and then extend on reduce it as required.

KK:Hell yes. In fact after the first Car free day in Bogotá, the people of the city had something similar to a referendum and opted for 2 per year (the entire city is completely car free, with the exception of taxis), with a view to extending it eventually.

BORZOI: TBH unless you start putting some concrete proposals forward, and stop trying to change the world in a single act you'll just lose credibility.

KK: Christ! I didn’t know I had any! Totally. Street Parties, in fact any street protest is only effective insofar as it is a forum, to inform people, to share personal experience, to encourage the growth of the movement, to highlight problems to a wider audience. I don’t suppose anyone in Dublin needs the congestion pointed out to them – to me RTS is not just about transport though, it is a resistance to the commodification of each of us. Public space is dominated with advertising – billboards, bustops/stations, train stations, bin, telephone booths, inside every train & bus, the back of toilet doors in pubs… the list goes on.

Streets used to be where entire communities grew up – you don’t talk about the house you’re from, you talk about the street you live on, right? Kids are ever more limited to just find a place to play; just one example of how isolated we are becoming from the people around us by our increasingly indoor lifestyle.
Proposals are being put forward, each individual is responsible for cutting their own car use for a start.
For the immediate future investment in bike lanes; not the painted strips of bus lanes we have now, which can be parked or driven over, but the real McCoy, as in Rio, Germany, Holland etc. separate lanes. These would be a helluva lot cheaper than a Luas or Metro line and would go very far to encouraging those that do live within cycling distance of work/college/school to take up cycling as a viable means of transport. Most times of the day cycling is actually the fastest way to get around the inner city, it is always the most healthy option for everyone.

Proper pedestrian crossings – has anyone ever noticed how many busy junctions have no crossings, or just one with five streets intersecting?

Higher density human scale planning is hugely important. If all the shops and basic commodities communities needed were nearby fewer people would use the car.

TACT: 3) It's not up to me to decide what others want to do, much less get a huge group of people together to tell other people what they should do or how they should travel and neither should you

KK: I think it is fair enough to ask people to desist from engaging in activity which is economically, culturally and sociologically devastating, causes tremendous ecological harm both here and throughout the world. Is having consuming vast tracts of our countryside and depends upon a fuel which is the motivation for brutality all over the world.

via protest or a treehugging hippyfest as has been proposed or any other means. (sorry if that offends you but that's what last years crowd looked like to me and anyone else with a bit of grey matter between the old cauliflower bits

This kind of generalising does nothing to support your argument – you do all concerned a disservice, of course none more than yourself.

TACT: due to the image and what you call "atmosphere" that was created at the last one and may possibly happen again this year.

I truly hope the atmosphere that was created at the last one, in September, definitely happens again. It was a roaring success, great music, painting for kids, games, free food, street theatre, no arrests and no violence.

TACT: 8) If you want to be taken seriously maybe you might want to try and create a crowd that people won't instantly find offensive or dirty etc
And… 5) I know a lot of crusty students/unemployed people/respectable people that went to rts last year but the entire crowd smells mostly of hippy and that's not gonna get anything done for you

Yes we have commissioned a marketing exec to make sure we get the right look this time, man.

TACT: the roads were made for our cars.
No ****? They had cars back when the streets & roads were being built. Wow. That’s right, because Dublin’s only been around for what, about 1,000 years. Hmmm.

TACT: I know it's a tough concept but it works quite well despite the congestion

So you figure spending 3 hours each way in the car acceptable for a single mother of two, do you?

bonkey

Originally posted by kitty-kat
No ****? They had cars back when the streets & roads were being built. Wow. That’s right, because Dublin’s only been around for what, about 1,000 years. Hmmm.

In fairness, thats a specious argument. Not only is there a vast conceptual difference between a city today and a city of 1000 years ago, there has also been a drastic shift in the nature of travel, work, etc. as well.

You keep saying that Dublin even 100 years ago didnt have cars. Fair enough. Implement the solutions they did have then, and you will find a massive set of problems.

Here's a good example. I live in Switzerland. By and large, it has very few traffic problems (except on the motorways during ski-season). I live 30-ish km from work, and have between a 45 and 60 minute commute - regardless of if I go in the car with my GF, or by train. It is possible to do this in a country the size of Switzerland, because most major cities are relatively small - there isnt a single one which is over 1,000,000 people, and there tends to be a relative proclivity for apartments. As a result cities are far more compact, and can be easily serviced by a fixed-route transport system, coupled with pedestrianisation etc.

Interestingly, over here, while there arent many pedestrian areas, there are entire areas of most large towns where the pedestrian has right of way, and it is the driver's problem to crawl through avoiding the pedestrians, rather than the more common inverse. This includes almost the entire city-centre of Bern - incidentally a "world heritage" location. The cars dont cause a problem. As a general rule, there are more trams/busses than cars, and they are far less likely to stop for pedestrians. Its not perfect, but it works.

It is also worth noting that Swiss have a tendancy to live close to their work. Most people consider a travel-time of over 20 minutes to be unacceptable. (I am clearly mad, living in one town and working in another.) This is helped by the lack of a home-owning culture - people are more inclined to move closer to their work.

Apply a similar model to Dublin, and you have a problem. The residential areas are spread over massive areas, due to the proliferacy of houses. The sheer logistics of running a comprehensive bus-service over such well-spread-out areas is crazy. Not just that, but because of the spread-out nature of the entire city (and the more common Irish inclination to choose where you wish to live, rather than choosing where to live based on where you work, the house-owning mentality in Ireland, a numerous other factors, it quickly becomes apparent that there will always remain a significant number of the population for whom "conventional" public transport - no matter how well organised - will simply not be good enough.

This, for me, is a core problem. How do you tell someone that taking 3 or 4 buses, having to be exposed to the elements to make the connections, and so on is preferable to them to owning and driving a car? I can't see how to sell it. To make it work would need an entire perception shift of how we live our lives...not just about the streets.

Anyway....you talk about making the streets "car-free".
Is this the ultimate aim of RTS, a step along the way, or just a happy side-effect of achieving the ultimate goal of giving the streets back to the public? Whats the big deal about cars? Is it the size? The noise? The pollution? Why not stop short of "cars must go", and instead encourage options simply to reduce the problems. Surely, it is easier to sell incremental ideas (and admit to an overall plan) rather than shout out that we support Goal X, we want it achieved, and we offer no concrete steps as to how to get there.

For example - you want to cut out cars. Why not just look at starting to reduce the problems caused by cars - noise, pollution, and congestion.

the Swatch-Mercedes SMART is a massive success here in its country of origin. Over 100km to the liter in optimal conditions. Small. Quiet. Oh - and incredibly performant if you want it to be.

Over here, car-parks have smaller spaces exclusively for SMARTS, which are closer to the lifts, and which cost less.

It may not be a "car-free" world, but surely there is no reason for ultra-compact cars like this not be given incentives by the government to make them more attractive? It makes more space on the roads, more space in the car-parks, less noise, and less pollution. Its a great "interim solution", and I can only see two reasons why it shouldnt work :

1) Too many people want to own big cars. One of my mates, when planning a holiday recently for himself and his wife was talking about hiring a Mondeo-sized car for the two of them. His reasoning - its nice to have some space in the car. Where was he driving? The highlands of Scotland.

I class the urban-jeep drivers in the same category - people wanting to own big inefficient cars for some baseless reason.

2) The government will never offer incentives while there is only one serious car in that class. Maybe when BMW and others release their "SMART-challengers" in the next couple of years, we'll see a change.

Now, I admit that this does not solve the problem, but it does offer an avenue to realistically limit and cut-back on the problems we face today. There is no "chicken and egg" here. Supporting SMART cars and anything else of that ilk when they arrive is not a "lose to ultimately win". Its win-win. It cuts your noise, it cuts your pollution, and it cuts your congestion....if it is taken up by the public.

Just like the ESB told us to use lagging jackets, and offered us incentives to use night-time electricity, dont you think the government itself should do the same for ultra-compact low-emission cars?

And going back to the whole "what is RTS about" - I still have problems with it. Who are you reclaiming the streets from? You want them for the public - but you are reclaiming them from the public as well - just a section of the public that you choose not to be part of.

jc

TacT

I think bonkey's said what needs to be said. I might add, what part of society do you feel you currently belong to, because judging from your posts and talk of the whole thing and your attitude towards the gardai and the event you sound like a bit of an outcast or that the worlds out to get us or something, I can't put my finger on it.

The whole thing just doesn't feel right to me and the idea's don't sit right with me. I just don't see where your going with it all.
Surely there's a better way to achieve what you want without the need for a party in the streets.

Good luck with it, oh and about the atmosphere at the last one, I'm sure the burning car got attention, but I don't see any achievements you've gained for your cause after last year and I don't see what you intend to gain this year.

It's up to people to make their choices about how they get to work and back. I know people that drive 2hrs to and from work everyday and although their not mother's, they have families. You getting cars out of the city centre would be a wonderful thing, although, you do realise that you will have added to some people's daily travel needs because they can't take the car into town!

I'm also quite sure that the number of people that want cars out of town is nothing compared to the numbers that want their cars in town. It's already bad enough when you go shopping say, then have to walk 15/30 mins to the car with loads of bags, and possibly the kids hanging out of your arms. Do you think your doing these people any favours?

Surely you know that what you do to help some people will in turn have another affect on others daily lives. Please consider this.

As I said in my first post I cycle. Sometime last year when I got a cab to the airport when going on holidays. I was greeted on dame street by a huge crowd of cyclists in protest, preventing me from getting where I need to go. This is why you won't find me at any of these cycle protests because it doesn't help the situation and it's certainly not convincing others when you just get in the way of them going about their business.

With regards your last comment about spending 3hrs a day travelling - everyone makes sacrifices at some stage in their lives.

DadaKopf

Bonkey: basically what you're saying is that Swiss people have had good planning and development initiatives for decades. Ireland hasn't. This has been for a great many reasons including self-interested politicians and basic urgency ranging back to the 1950s.

Anyway, for those eager for some alternatives, here's a select summary of the Dublin City Council Strategy 2012 I dit up for the RTS people (note how many RTS ideas overlap it):

Summary of relevant points from Dublin City Council (DCC) Strategy
2012

Chapter 4: An integrated city

R.A.P.I.D.: Revitalising Areas Through Planning, Investment and
Development.

Strategy is to streamline and integrate differing approaches to
Dublin City. Plan is to avoid "clienteleism"; avoid fragmented
functional approaches of each instrument; focus on holism,
integration, sustainability.

"An integrated response is a holistic response that transcends
traditional organisational boundaries and divisional lines."

Strategy: (1) transfer senior management in the state sector to a
public sector management agency, rotate managers between agencies to
increase knowledge base and cooperation; (2) aimed at increasing
participation and accountability (joined up thinking).

Whole strategy overseen by the Dublin City Development Board.


Chapter 7: A Greener City

Urban environment/ecology in strategy takes into account: air and
water (drink and swim in), sounds, urban spaces (buildings we see,
spaces we use and design), wildlife, energy, waste,
architecture/archaeology.

Ireland has signed up to the Gothenburg Protocol, the EU Habitats
Directive and the Kyoto Protocol (overall domestic energy consumption
accounts for 30% of carbon emissions).

750 green public spaces in Dublin. DCC's Waste Management Division
collects 200,000 tonnes from 150,000 homes and 15,000 businesses p.a.
(Waste Management Plan, 1998).

Strategy: (1) Environmental considerations to be incorporated into
corporate and public planning; (2) Awareness campaign to commence
highlight problems and solutions; (3) Green Dublin Initiative that
recognises collective responsibility and action; (4) Involve
individuals, agencies, businesses and insititutions in public
decision-making, delivery and monitoring; (5)total access to
environmental services; (6) energy needs should be met while relying
more on renewable energy; (7) collective waste management,
attitudinal change, re-use, reduction, litter management.


Chapter 8: A moving and accessible city

Emphasis on integrated "modes of transport" which are safe,
accessible, environmentally sustainable, maximises sustainable social
and economic development.

S2012's aim is to tackle people's reliance on cars and turning people
towards other modes of transport: - Department of Transport spending
€17bn capital spending on infrastructure (5.5bn already earmarked for
National Development Plan);
- Infrastructure includes Luas, Metro, improvements to DART, suburban
rail, Port Tunnel, implementation of "Walk and Ride" strategy/campaign

Their analysis of Dublin's problem and solution: urban sprawl, bad
urban planning and lack of development regulation have caused over-
reliance on private vehicles. The plan is to enable more localised,
self-sustained communities ("spheres of life") by
encouraging /planning "high-density mixed-use development" and a re-
patterning of land-use; "Strategic Land-Use and Transport Authority"
to be established. Adopting findings of the Westminster Transport
Studies group, DCC and S2012 clearly accepts importance of sustained
awareness campaign.

S2012 also emphasises the responsibility of individuals to alter
their lifestyle ("collective responsibility"). This will, in part, be
achieved by an awareness/education campaign – "Sustainable Transport
Initiative", and through tangible results through the provision of
adequate services.

Overall strategy is focused on Quality of Life – social, economic,
environmental, health.

MDR

URL for the complete document please ?

kitty-kat

QUOTE: You keep saying that Dublin 100 years ago didnt have cars. Fair enough. Implement the solutions they did have then, and you will find a massive set of problems.

Yes, as I was saying, the technology that is available to us now deals with a lot of these. We have seen the disastrous experiment of car dependence and it’s undeniable failure played out to extremes in the U.S. we don’t need to follow them to the grave, nor do we need to go Amish.

QUOTE: …tends to be a relative proclivity for apartments. As a result cities are far more compact, and can be easily serviced by a fixed-route transport system, coupled with pedestrianisation etc.
and… It is also worth noting that Swiss have a tendancy to live close to their work..

very important! I think i've highlighted the importance of Urban Planning more than once already. This is an option the vast majority of Irish people simply don’t have.

QUOTE: The residential areas are spread over massive areas, due to the proliferacy of houses. The sheer logistics of running a comprehensive bus-service over such well-spread-out areas is crazy.

I can’t say that I have looked into the particulars but I’m guessing for now, you MAY be right.

QUOTE: Not just that, but because of the spread-out nature of the entire city (and the more common Irish inclination to choose where you wish to live, rather than choosing where to live based on where you work, the house-owning mentality in Ireland, a numerous other factors, it quickly becomes apparent that there will always remain a significant number of the population for whom "conventional" public transport - no matter how well organised - will simply not be good enough.

Dublin is actually a big town by global standards, it’s footprint is enormous yes. A less Dublincentric approach to development (of all natures not these monstrous business parks) would benefit everyone. but i don't agree with you're last point. it is possible.
It was only a generation ago the inner city of Dublin was very densely populated. Now, I’m not for a second suggesting that we all squeeze back in the tenements but, the exodus, the uprooting and scattering of entire (very old) communities to the likes of Finglas, Ballymun, Ballyfermot as happened to my family for example, was a catastrophe. The next generation of these families spend 4 hours a day in traffic, i did.

JC, we are now kind of waltzing round the same ballroom. Value change = essential. Sustainable Urban Planning = essential.

This, for me, is a core problem. How do you tell someone that taking 3 or 4 buses, having to be exposed to the elements to make the connections, and so on is preferable to them to owning and driving a car?

Firstly, you provide a service that doesn’t require anyone to take 3 or 4 buses (and you certainly don’t charge people the way Dublin Bus do!!) people all over the world have put a lot of time effort and money in to figure this stuff out.

QUOTE: I can't see how to sell it. To make it work would need an entire perception shift of how we live our lives...not just about the streets.

Oh God!! Welcome to my world!

QUOTE: Whats the big deal about cars? Is it the size? The noise? The pollution?

All of the above… and then some.

QUOTE: Why not stop short of "cars must go", and instead encourage options simply to reduce the problems.

I don’t think is an either/or situation. We have to be ambitious as well as pragmatic I don’t think we’d function very well as a city if there was a blanket ban on cars tomorrow. We need to gradually cut down with a view to cutting out - not until a viable alternative is in place.. But time is of course of the essence.

QUOTE: Surely, it is easier to sell incremental ideas (and admit to an overall plan) rather than shout out that we support Goal X, we want it achieved, and we offer no concrete steps as to how to get there.

Well concrete steps are being offered. As I said before bike lanes, proactive encouragement for pedestrians, proper urban planning, to name but a few.

Regarding the SMART cars, it’s still one bum on four wheels.


QUOTE: Just like the ESB told us to use lagging jackets, and offered us incentives to use night-time electricity, dont you think the government itself should do the same for ultra-compact low-emission cars?
HELL YEAH. And ruffle dubya’s texaco, enron feathers, I won’t hold my breath.
:rolleyes:

DadaKopf

the Swatch-Mercedes SMART is a massive success here in its country of origin. Over 100km to the liter in optimal conditions. Small. Quiet. Oh - and incredibly performant if you want it to be.

Over here, car-parks have smaller spaces exclusively for SMARTS, which are closer to the lifts, and which cost less.

And here you encapsulate the value-change problem Ireland faces. I can't see public agencies introducing schemes like this nor can I see the general public adopting the scheme, if it was implemented. Of course it's a good thing, but Ireland hasn't had a good track record of public agencies charging ahead with a beneficial scheme like they do on the continent. That's why we need value change. RTS is part of that. What's also part of it (as uncool/unsexy as it sounds) are programmes like Duncan Stewart's Eco Eye, the rise in Green Party lobbying and subsequent rise in Dáil seats and changes in public agencies' policies and internal organisation/cooperation.

You can discuss the merits or failures of civil disobedience all you like but the values contained in RTS are really what should be discussed.

I do think, however, that concentrating RTS on congestion issues alone, with the solution being car-free cities, is an untenable, gross oversimplification of the ideas behind the event itself and of the issues it attempts to address.

kitty-kat

QUOTE: Good luck with it, oh and about the atmosphere at the last one, I'm sure the burning car got attention, but I don't see any achievements you've gained for your cause after last year and I don't see what you intend to gain this year.

Here we go again, I was referring to the last one in SEPTEMBER. And there was never a car burned, if you are referring to the one at the st. Party in MAY, it had an orange smoke flare thrown in it.

QUOTE: It's up to people to make their choices about how they get to work and back.
Even if it is destructive in all the ways I described before? Really?

QUOTE: You getting cars out of the city centre would be a wonderful thing, although, you do realise that you will have added to some people's daily travel needs because they can't take the car into town!

I’m not suggesting they walk.

QUOTE: I do think, however, that concentrating RTS on congestion issues alone, with the solution being car-free cities, is an untenable, gross oversimplification of the ideas behind the event itself and of the issues it attempts to address.

As do I. I regret I have had enough, for now, of repeating myself over and over. Perhaps I’m not being as clear as I think I am. But I probably won’t be back on the list for a few days. I need a break.

QUOTE: With regards your last comment about spending 3hrs a day travelling - everyone makes sacrifices at some stage in their lives.

You talk to me about inconveniencing people and then have the audacity to make such a statement!! To me that statement reads…miserable? Tough sh*t, I love my car.

bonkey

Originally posted by kitty-kat
very important! I think i've highlighted the importance of Urban Planning more than once already. This is an option the vast majority of Irish people simply don’t have.

Thinking the problem through though....how to you cope with a lack of urban planning in the past? I agree that we can make the situation better by implementing urban planning, but the simple fact is that over a million people live in one sprawled city which effectively has SFA intelligent urban planning. How do you offer these people anything by saying that future developments will be more intelligently planned?

Unless we were to tear down half of Dublin and its conurbation, there is a severe limit to what can be accomplished.

Decentralisation will help, sure....or will it simply make the same problems prolifigate?

I see it ultimately as a problem of psyche. The vast majority of flat-purchasers are doing so for one of three reasons :

1) Subletting, and a solid ivestment.
2) Living there while relatively young, planning to upgrade to a house later. And a Solid Investment.
3) Retiring there.

There is a house owning culture in Ireland, and unless you change that, you still face the ultimate problem of trying to prevent urban crawl/sprawl without removing the houses and gardens that people want.

QUOTE: The residential areas are spread over massive areas, due to the proliferacy of houses. The sheer logistics of running a comprehensive bus-service over such well-spread-out areas is crazy.

I can’t say that I have looked into the particulars but I’m guessing for now, you MAY be right.

Its ok. I'm basing my "crazy" more on an understanding of the maths of logistics in general rather than looking at the specific problem as well.

However, if I may offer a slight criticism....isnt it incumbent on anyone proposing change to look into these particulars? Otherwise any suggestion that these services could be improved as a means to an end is nothing but guesswork? Hardly a convincing stance to have.

Firstly, you provide a service that doesn’t require anyone to take 3 or 4 buses (and you certainly don’t charge people the way Dublin Bus do!!) people all over the world have put a lot of time effort and money in to figure this stuff out.

The time and effort that they have put in typically results in a series of "webs" (or a radial-and-lateral design). The bus-services function well because the connection times are well planned, the buses run frequently, and so on. For any non-local journey, you typically take a bus (or walk) to one of your local hub-points, then a major-route bus to another hub-point, then another feeder from that hub to your destination.

Given the sprawl of Dublin, you simply cannot rule out 3 or more buses for certain journeys. So, unless people change their living and working habits, you will have to sell many of them on the idea of multiple buses.

Regarding the SMART cars, it’s still one bum on four wheels.

Or, if its full, its two bums on four wheels. The exact same bum-to-wheel ratio as a bicycle.

I see electric "trikes" around town a bit as well. One bum on three wheels. Is this acceptable? With a two-seater, you can even have one bum per 1.5 wheels - better than a bicycle.

No offence, but this is why I'm asking what the specific problem is.

You want a cleaner city - SMART offers that today.
You want quieter streets - a SMART offers that today.
You want less pollution - a SMART offers that today.

When alternative-energy or hybrid-tech engines become available, cars such as SMART will be even quieter, even more efficient, even less polluting. I'm sure other cars will surpass it in these areas as well.

So whats the problem with a SMART? That its "still a bum on four wheels" just doesnt cut it for me. I've seen the bicycle traffic in Chinese cities. While its environmentally friendly, it sure as hell isnt quiet, and its by no means reclaimed the streets for pedestrians.

By that logic, a bum on two wheels should surely be equally unappetising to you, but you suggest bicycles as one potential alternative. I'm simply saying that SMART is - from my perspective - an equally valid alternative in this place (Dublin) at this time

jc

TacT

Audacity? no, it's just an observation, take it as you will.
My gripe with you is you're going to be inconveniencing a lot of people probably more so than helping a few along the way, ok?
jc has given you a viable alternative and you've slated it as "another bum etc"

I think your getting caught up with your cause and overlooking the issues that are present and need to be resolved, as well as trying to defend yourself from the hoardes of us here that don't agree with you.

"Welcome to my world" - direct implication that you don't feel like you're a part of society and instead prefer to distance yourself from it and make suggestions as to how you can change the world to better yours and/or your friends and others who have a similar train of thought/idea's, when in fact the majority of people disagree and sometimes NEED their cars to go about their business.

I do believe that if someone wants to take their car then it is tough $hit, sorry, it's the way it is. They worked for it, they paid their taxes and then you want to come along and say "sorry, but you can't come into town and go about your daily business"
Look at it from their point of view as well as your own please. To re-itterate, I don't drive, but if someone else does I'm not gonna deny them that freedom.

COME ON!

Those smart cars could definitely be used as part of a project to help ease the problem, yet you blank it?

Having a party on the streets is no solution to a problem and I won't move on that stance. Although it will help bring plenty of the boys in blue along and you'll get a wee media circus, it's not going to do anything until you propose something VIABLE and equally accessible and agreeable for ALL people concerned. Judging by the amount of people on the roads I'd say you have one hell of a job on your hands and one party every couple of months or once a year is not going to get what you want and others don't.

DadaKopf

Critical Mass is just about traffic. RTS isn't just about traffic. If you go back and read more about RTS' aims and convictions, I think you'll find that the car is a "tangible symbol" of the contradictions and problems caused by unsustainable living and chronic lack of planning in Dublin. Once people grasp the issues RTS tries to address, then and only then should people discuss whether blocking traffic for a party is a proportionate and/or desirable means to an end. Otherwise, people arguing against RTS on the basis of it blocking streets are actively reinforcing the values RTS are trying to change.

bonkey

Originally posted by TacT
Those smart cars could definitely be used as part of a project to help ease the problem, yet you blank it?

In fairness, he/she didnt blank it. kk said that it wasnt a solution...more a means of getting an improvement on the way to a solution.

Both of us would (if I understood correctly) be happy to see such a scheme in place and working. Both of us recognise many of the inherent problems in making such a scheme work. Where we differ - I imagine - is how far down the road we should go after making such improvements, and indeed which road to follow at certain points.

jc

TacT

fair enough, but her/his comments seemed to dismiss it as something that might play a part in the goals they wish to achieve.
Dada - I have read it and this part of it is the only bit that I have a problem with, which is why I'm hell for leather on the traffic aspect of it

bonkey

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Once people grasp the issues RTS tries to address, then and only then should people discuss whether blocking traffic for a party is a proportionate and/or desirable means to an end.

Do you claim this logic holds to all situations, or are street parties just a special case?

In other words, are you asserting that people should not cast judgement on anything until fully aware of all the issues and both parties points of view?

jc

DadaKopf

In this case certainly. As a rule? It's an aim at least - I suppose most people aim for 100% communication.

bonkey

Originally posted by DadaKopf
In this case certainly. As a rule? It's an aim at least - I suppose most people aim for 100% communication.

I'm just asking because it seems to me that a lot of the RTS beliefs are based on a belief in "there must be a better way".

Buses are an alternative to cars, but when pushed about the logistics of implementing them in an urban ultra-sprawl like Dublin, kk admitted to not having looked into the particulars.

So, surely by your logic, the RTS people shouldnt be objecting to anything either until they've fully investigated both sides, were aware of the issues, and were able to discuss them.

If we wish to take other cities as examples, saying "it was done acceptably well there, so it will work as well here", then shouldnt we also be able to discuss why the model for that city will also work here - that our movement dynamics, lifestyles, and city layouts are roughly comparable.

Now, I'm pretty sure there are individuals in RTS who are especially versed in various aspects of this, and I respect that. However, dont you think that the hundreds or thousands of protestors who join in owe it to the rest of us to educate themselves on all aspects of the issue before complaining? Or is kk just the exception and all those who come along to join in could discuss traffic logistics as they would be applied to a city like Dublin with any degree of an informed basis?

Just wondering is all, seeing as you brought it up.

Personally, I dont think you need to be fully informed on both sides at all, as long as youre willing to take correction and admit to where you have knowledge gaps....but that would mean that I support the "not fully informed" offering criticism.

You, on the other hand dont, which means you seem to have standards that say RTS protestors are fundamentally wrong, unless (as you said) they have grasped the issues.

Would you agree?

jc

DadaKopf

You're placing a very tough standard on an an acceptable level of information.

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer when I said people should go back and read what RTS is about. I wasn't implying people should come back only when they've acquired a detailed knowledge of transport policy and urban theory, I was saying people who don't understand RTS in spirit (those for and against it) should go back and read RTS 'litrerature', agitprop etc so that they know what it's about.

In practise, RTS is about creating the space to think outside the box, having a revolution to make a revolution possible, so to speak. It gives people the literal and symbolic space to begin thinking about alternatives on a basic, experiential level. Then it gets people thinking. I guess that's what I meant.

Then you'll say that that runs counter to what I've just said, but I don't believe it does.

DeVore

Does it really get people thinking?

Or does it just get people thinking "what a bunch of annoying, obstructive hippies".

I like the RTS spirit, mostly because they want to unbrand community areas and give space back to the people to create something more beautiful in.

However I dont think its best done by confrontational protests (and I dont mean confrontational with the police, I mean with the people of the city who are obstructed by the march).

If your objective is to engage and inform why not use other means. "Loglo"ing, hacktivism, even a thread like this has probably brought the RTS to a decent number of peoples attention. Agitate for a "car-free" day when *everyone* could take to the streets and have a party. A Dublin Street Carnival ... Isnt that what paddies day is... so its more then possible.

Ironically I just think the thinking isnt "outside the box" enough... just marching (even if you are juggling) isnt effective. We've seen it not work for decades.

DeV.

MDR

This very much goes back to IOFFL and MIJAG-esque issues,
how do you effectively challange the status quo ?

I mean when I was wandering around pedaling the idea that Ireland needed to move on the telecoms front, the average Joe on the street would tell me, 'sure aren't we at the forefront of the technology, aren't we ahead of the rest of the world ... etc'.

Similarily with MIJAG, people where much more willing the blame young males for the cost of their insurance before even considering that the insurance companies might be ripping them off, my protests similarily fell on deaf ears.

When the city council start restricting the flow of traffic to O'Connell Street as happened with Grafton Street, people reacted badily to the idea that they would no longer be able to drive to the centre of town. The couldn't equate it with an improvement in the quality of life.

Protests really tend to rub the Irish up the wrong way, the French live off taking to the streets to protests against anything and everything (and it can be alot of fun), but its really does seem to get you nowhere in Ireland. Engaging with people in public office (etc) in Ireland and bringing them around to your way of thinking (ala IOFFL) seems to be much more effective.

However what I always have difficulty with, and perhaps I am a poor sales man, is engaging people at grass roots (and I mean real grass roots, a proper cross section of society, rather than a bunch of student ethusiasts). I know my people, I know the real people, from the office worker to the street cleaner (and I make no judgement on which job is better, especially in this weather
), I have gotten my hands dirty on the streets of Ireland's town's on more that one ocassion.

How do you communicate with Ireland and convince them that we are our own worst enemies, convince them that we have to start living healthily, convince them that the pursuit of the mighty dollar has gotten us nowhere, convince them that really need to take a long hard look at our values and morality, how do you take that first step _WITH_ them, confrontation is useless, engaging would be more fruitfull, but how does one go about it ...

Von

Originally posted by DeVore
Agitate for a "car-free" day when *everyone* could take to the streets and have a party. A Dublin Street Carnival ... Isnt that what paddies day is... so its more then possible.

Well there's something called European Mobility Week and the last RTS was held on what was supposed to be an official car free day, but who really cared? No fukka. That's who.

mycroft

To reply to a few of your points

I'm in a position to be an expert on the events on last May, and can respond to some of what you said.

No Gardaí were injured. Not one required hosiptalisation or sitiches, I can confirm that from the Garda complaints Board and Gardaí press officer.

Gardaí can't defend themselves in the media. One week after RTS the GRA (Gardaí Rights Association) held their annual conference. A senior Gardaí took this opportunity to announce that May 6th had not been a peaceful protest, to prove this he produced the Slate, (claiming it told you how to start a riot) informed us a car had been kicked, and a smoke bomb had been set off. So obviously the lads had to use extreme excessive force.

PJ Stone, head of the GRA labeled anyone who complained about the Gardaí "a criminal or subversive", and claimed that the footage had been editted to make the Gardaí look bad, he had of course seen the "unedited footage, it told a different story". RTE, TV3, and Indymedia deny empathetical that he had any access.

So the Gardaí are capable of having people tell lies to defend them.

Arrests. 12 people face charges including, drunk and disorderly, public order, and assaulting a Gardaí. More Gardaí are facing assault charges than protestors. The majority of people facing charges are Irish. Again I've looked over all media relating to the event and not even the Sunday world supports your claim about a hardcore group of protestors from the UK. So I'm not sure where you produced that.

While I will agree that the protest was unorthodox and less than peaceful, there was no justification for the excess force used by Gardaí.

MDR

I'm in a position to be an expert on the events on last May, and can respond to some of what you said.

Elaborate, why are you an expert on the events of the day ?

A senior Gardaí took this opportunity to announce that May 6th had not been a peaceful protest

Commissioner at that time Pat Byrne wasn't it, he went to say to say that he couldn't talk anymore specifics because of prosecutions pending ... long time ago, could be wrong

PJ Stone, head of the GRA labeled anyone who complained about the Gardaí "a criminal or subversive",

The GRA is the Garda Union, senior figures in it are largely unaccountable for anything they say (except of course to their members), now if the minister or the commissoner had of said something similar. He has a history of saying stuff like this, then again most "union" men I have meet have been quite similar in attidute, so lets say I amn't suprised, but it's hardily senior Garda policy.

claimed that the footage had been editted to make the Gardaí look bad

I am not sure i disagree with that assertation, the indymedia footage was a minute and half long (as I remember), with about 20 seconds of it featured Garda acting inappropriately.

he had of course seen the "unedited footage, it told a different story". RTE, TV3, and Indymedia deny empathetical that he had any access. So the Gardaí are capable of having people tell lies to defend them.

I am not sure of the point you are making, please clarify. I doubt indymedia would lie for the Garda.

The majority of people facing charges are Irish

Some harder figures please if you don't mind, out of the 24 arrested on the day.

I've looked over all media relating to the event and not even the Sunday world supports your claim about a hardcore group of protestors from the UK

I did point our that either media had ignored the fact or was not aware of it, I heard it from a "friend" in the courts service.

While I will agree that the protest was unorthodox and less than peaceful, there was no justification for the excess force used by Gardaí.

I wholly agree (and have said as much several times, that several Garda acted very inapproapriately), but I do worry about; Garda witch hunts (after all as I have said the majority of Garda are above reproach), exaggeration of events on the day (I wasn't there and I have seen very limited footage from indymedia) and groups such as SWP crying Garda Brutality every time they don't get there way (ala Joe Higgins or the Shannon Peace Protest).

mycroft

I'm in a position to be an expert on the events on last May, and can respond to some of what you said.

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Elaborate, why are you an expert on the events of the day ?


I shot the videofootage. Worked with Sampler on their piece, collected video footage from other people on the day, worked with the Gardaí complaints board, and viewed both CCTV and Gardaí helicopter footage. I've also got an impressive clips collection of media stories on the day, pretty much utterly complete.

quote:

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A senior Gardaí took this opportunity to announce that May 6th had not been a peaceful protest

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Check RTE archives for the the name, it was the week after RTS on the Tuesday not at my home PC so I don't have the exact link here.





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The GRA is the Garda Union, senior figures in it are largely unaccountable for anything they say (except of course to their members), now if the minister or the commissoner had of said something similar. He has a history of saying stuff like this, then again most "union" men I have meet have been quite similar in attidute, so lets say I amn't suprised, but it's hardily senior Garda policy.

---

Yeah but the dirt stuck, the allegation that the footage had been manipulated to make the Gardaí look bad still floats about.

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I am not sure i disagree with that assertation, the indymedia footage was a minute and half long (as I remember), with about 20 seconds of it featured Garda acting inappropriately.

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I can e-mail the video of the Gardaí saying "I'll assault who I like", or beating a girl huddled in a doorway. The footage and clips used were choosen by RTE and TV3 they were both give free access and reign to the uneditting masters. If you have issues with how the event was protrayed in the mainstream media talk to them, the story they put up on screen was the story they wanted up there.



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Some harder figures please if you don't mind, out of the 24 arrested on the day.

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Of the 24 people arrested on the night only 12 still face charges.
I'm in contact with the solicitors of 10 of them. All Irish.

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I did point our that either media had ignored the fact or was not aware of it, I heard it from a "friend" in the courts service.

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Your friend is in error. Again nothing I saw on the day nothing shot on the day nothing from the GCB invesigation supports that.

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I wholly agree (and have said as much several times, that several Garda acted very inapproapriately), but I do worry about; Garda witch hunts (after all as I have said the majority of Garda are above reproach), exaggeration of events on the day (I wasn't there and I have seen very limited footage from indymedia) and groups such as SWP crying Garda Brutality every time they don't get there way (ala Joe Higgins or the Shannon Peace Protest).

---

Yes I do find it ironic whenever someone engaged in civil disobedance rants about being dragged off the street (ala last wednesday) serious activists (like those going to faslane this weekend) are prepared to be arrested and roughed up.

However a teenage girl should not be struck across the head with a baton (Gardaí are only allowed to do so if they fear for their lives) yet the batons were used indiscrimantly and without thought to who or why it was necessary to use violence.

As for the Gardaí witchunt. **** right off, The Gardaí are the most protected speices in this country. Number of complaints againist Gardaí since 2000? 5,000. Number of complaints leading to assault charges (before rts)? 2. Number of those charges
dropped? 2. (source ferry solicitors)

The GCB doesn't even have the powers to compel Gardaí to speak to them.

Worrying about Gardaí rights is a joke, worry about a part of our system that up until the last few years (Abbeylara, Donegal, RTS) acted with impuntity and above the law.

Anyway this is taking us far away from Kitty Kats eloquent defense and a good argument on Grass Roots activism and RTS.

MDR

worked with the Gardaí complaints board

should you really be talking about any of this with us then ?
Would it be too much to ask who you work for, although I appreciate you will probabily ask that you anomity be preserved.

Check RTE archives for the the name, it was the week after RTS on the Tuesday not at my home PC so I don't have the exact link here.

Again, it was Pat Byrne as I remember.

Yeah but the dirt stuck, the allegation that the footage had been manipulated to make the Gardaí look bad still floats about.

Could the Garda conceivably had access to the footage ?

I can e-mail the video of the Gardaí saying "I'll assault who I like", or beating a girl huddled in a doorway

I never argued against the fact that some Garda acted inappropriately that day. Is there more footage you would care to discribe ...

If you have issues with how the event was protrayed in the mainstream media talk to them, the story they put up on screen was the story they wanted up there.

I was commenting on how it was reported on indymedia, an RTS sympathetic media group, not the main stream media.

Of the 24 people arrested on the night only 12 still face charges.

So the upshot, is that you really aren't in a position to confirm or deny the allegation (I did point out earily that it is third party information) I heard. 12 are Irish, fine but the other 12 could have come from Venus .... you have no defenite information and by my own admission (repeatedily) neither do I.

and without thought to who or why it was necessary to use violence.

Again I completely agree, however I would be interested to know why the Garda chose this particular occasion to go nuts for no apparent reason. I should probabily elaborate a little, I was at a riot in summer hill some years ago, now for the life of me I can't remember what caused the riot, I think the Garda arrested a local community leader. It was quite intense, Ambulances and Buses where burned out etc, the Garda acted professionally under difficult circumstances all through the night. Why did they snap at RTS, and not at the 100's of other protests they chaperone in the city every year ? Furthermore I find it more than a little suspious that similar volience has occured at similar events in London and Milan ?

The Gardaí are the most protected speices in this country

Well yes, its very civil-service-esque, very hard to sack a Garda, but similarily quite tough to sack a teacher etc. But don't be too quick to call them the most protected species in the country. I have gone to visit too many Garda in hospital and then subsequentily watch their assalants recieve light sentences and fines.

Also any of the Garda I spoke to (and I am repeating myself now from the LGB board, and I am not sure that this is the offical position of the GRA or the Sergeants and Inpsectors body), haven't disagreed with the need for a independant complaints board. Many of them see it as way a fair and impartial way of deciding issue with fear of interfere from the political establishment.

As for witchhunts, yes I do worry about witchhunts in the media and by politicans. The police force in every country is sacrificed on the altar of newspaper sales and votes, I have seen it happen elsewhere. I will accept that the Garda have acted above the law, in fact I could introduce you to some Garda who will tell you stories about the 60's that would make your hair stand on end. But I completely refute the idea pedaled by some that every Garda who walks the beat, cares for communities, countless times above and beyond the call of duty for a pitance of pay is a malicous, volient, bully who would not be out of place at Nuremburg.

Number of complaints againist Gardaí since 2000? 5,000. Number of complaints leading to assault charges (before rts)? 2. Number of those charged 0

I have heard that statistic bandied about quite abit in the media, I think it actually is the number of Garda who have be criminally convicted of assault, rather than the number of Garda who have been disaplined internally by the force (I amn't sure those number are available under FOI).

Anyway this is taking us far away from Kitty Kats eloquent defense and a good argument on Grass Roots activism and RTS

Kitty Kat has failed repeatedily to address they issue that quite a few people feel that RTS insistance not to liase with the Garda when planning RTS parties. And did Kitty Kat quite clearily not invite you here to refute some of my assertions ?

mycroft

should you really be talking about any of this with us then ?
Would it be too much to ask who you work for, although I appreciate you will probabily ask that you anomity be preserved.

---

I'll go with anomity, there are several upcoming court cases

quote:

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Again, it was Pat Byrne as I remember.

No it wasn't, This was a statement at the GRA conference, I will dig up the link, it's a pity that the RTE website has a woeful search function.



quote:

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Yeah but the dirt stuck, the allegation that the footage had been manipulated to make the Gardaí look bad still floats about.

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Could the Garda conceivably had access to the footage ?

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No. At the end of the previous week two Gardaí reviewed the sampler footage in RTE under supervision. It be a week later until the warrant was issued to RTE and a month for Tv3. PJ Stone could not have seen it.

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I never argued against the fact that some Garda acted inappropriately that day. Is there more footage you would care to discribe ...

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On my to do list I'll chuck some stuff onto a FTP site one of these days.




quote:

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Of the 24 people arrested on the night only 12 still face charges.

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So the upshot, is that you really aren't in a position to confirm or deny the allegation (I did point out earily that it is third party information) I heard. 12 are Irish, fine but the other 12 could have come from Venus .... you have no defenite information and by my own admission (repeatedily) neither do I.

---

Of those 12. One was Italian, another was Irish and charged with "doing a handstand on a public thoroughfare. THis was dropped due to the fact that this isn't a crime.

The twelve that are charged are the only ones facing charges because these are the only ones that the Gardai can make stick.

If there was a hardcore group of ninja anarchists from the UK at least one of them one be facing charges.

This allegation of Anarchist inflitrators is always thrown about at protests. Obviously theres some secret lair somewhere and they have jetpacks.

Quote

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Again I completely agree, however I would be interested to know why the Garda chose this particular occasion to go nuts for no apparent reason. I should probabily elaborate a little, I was at a riot in summer hill some years ago, now for the life of me I can't remember what caused the riot, I think the Garda arrested a local community leader. It was quite intense, Ambulances and Buses where burned out etc, the Garda acted professionally under difficult circumstances all through the night. Why did they snap at RTS, and not at the 100's of other protests they chaperone in the city every year ? Furthermore I find it more than a little suspious that similar volience has occured at similar events in London and Milan ?

---

Jesus those ninja anarchists do get around don't they? Lets settle this, no Gardaí or member of the public injuried.

This wasn't a riot and it wasn't violent.

Lots of protestors have claimed this whole thing was orchestraed repression. I think thats bull**** and they're trying to talk themselves up.

I put the blame on poor communication, several of the Gardaí just arrived on the scene saw colleagues with batons drawn and came in flying. I put it down to the fact that the Gardaí have the crowd control skills of visigoths.


Quote

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Also any of the Garda I spoke to (and I am repeating myself now from the LGB board, and I am not sure that this is the offical position of the GRA or the Sergeants and Inpsectors body), haven't disagreed with the need for a independant complaints board. Many of them see it as way a fair and impartial way of deciding issue with fear of interfere from the political establishment.

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And everyone and the brother has been calling for one for years, Mc Dowell swore blind we'd have one. It's in commitee. Apparently.



Quote

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As for witchhunts, yes I do worry about witchhunts in the media and by politicans. The police force in every country is sacrificed on the altar of newspaper sales and votes, I have seen it happen elsewhere. I will accept that the Garda have acted above the law, in fact I could introduce you to some Garda who will tell you stories about the 60's that would make your hair stand on end. But I completely refute the idea pedaled by some that every Garda who walks the beat, cares for communities, countless times above and beyond the call of duty for a pitance of pay is a malicous, volient, bully who would not be out of place at Nuremburg.

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Fine I never said that either. But can we also agree that everyone there wasn't a smell crusty or anarchist hell bent on mayhem?

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I have heard that statistic bandied about quite abit in the media, I think it actually is the number of Garda who have be criminally convicted of assault, rather than the number of Garda who have been disaplined internally by the force (I amn't sure those number are available under FOI).

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And I have zero confidence in Internal Gardai discipline procedures. Not good enough, Gardai who commit assault and break they law, should face criminal charges.

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Kitty Kat has failed repeatedily to address they issue that quite a few people feel that RTS insistance not to liase with the Garda when planning RTS parties. And did Kitty Kat quite clearily not invite you here to refute some of my assertions ?

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Lovely person but I'm afraid I'm here of my own free will, and wasn't invited.

kitty-kat

QUOTE: you have no defenite information and by my own admission (repeatedily) neither do I.

You would do well to learn from this particular exchange as you were perfectly happy to let others go with the belief that you were qualified to make an assertion about the attendees nationality and furthermore attempt to use this fabricated “inside information” to draw more insidious conclusions. I wonder would you have volunteered to let us all know that you really weren't sure at all had you not been challenged? Not very honourable.

QUOTE: As for witchhunts, yes I do worry about witchhunts in the media and by politicans

There were more than the 7 Gardaí charged acting out of line that day. In the wake of M6 1 guy was put on desk duty.why? because such a wealth of footage contained him on a rampage. There is no doubt in my mind that those up for disciplinary action are taking the rap for a great deal more. That (before you dive down my neck) is not to say that ALL gardaí were beating the bijaysus out of us that day, just many more than the number charged. It is the system of policing that is truly at fault here and the big boys are only too happy to have a few scapegoats. I would be equally concerned by any institution which forbids their employees from expressing a personal opinion (i.e. iraqi war) but sends them down the swaney. the whole set up seems a bit disturbing to me.

QUOTE: Kitty Kat has failed repeatedily to address they issue that quite a few people feel that RTS insistance not to liase with the Garda when planning RTS parties.

Firstly, please read over your posts, this makes no grammatical sense. As is often the case.

QUOTE: And did Kitty Kat quite clearily not invite you here to refute some of my assertions ?

Eh. What? this cracks me up! ha ha ha. who is this guy!?

So back to the point, ay?

MDR

I wonder would you have volunteered to let us all know that you really weren't sure at all had you not been challenged? Not very honourable.

kitty-kat I told you very earily on that the information I was refering to came from an informal conversation I had with a court clerk some months ago. Without telling you the name of the clerk, the date, time, place of conversation and what we ate for lunch, I amn't sure how I could have been above more above board about the source of my information. When I say I have no definite information, I don't have the name and nationality of all 24, and from what I can gather neither does 'mycroft'.

Can I quote myself, here is the link.

jesus, that particular conversation I was quoting was a long time ago, there was something like 18 people arrested, 5 or 6 of them where from the uk I think.

Kitty Kat has failed repeatedily to address they issue that quite a few people feel that RTS insistance not to liase with the Garda when planning RTS parties

Ah apologies, I was probabily quite tired when I wrote this, but in fairness it wouldn't have taken much effort on your part to figure out the point I was trying to make. I was refering to fact that people repeatidily expressed concern at 'Reclaim the Streets' failure to liase with the Garda when organising street parties, your only response to this is I quote and here is the link

Because that is the fundamental point of Reclaim the Streets. The streets are for the people! they should not have to ask permission to congregate

Also I believe it is considered quite inpolite to comment on peoples grammar, vocabulary and spelling on the boards, as you are really quite unaware as to wether that person is lazy or suffers from dyslexia or partial sightness.

QUOTE: And did Kitty Kat quite clearily not invite you here to refute some of my assertions ?

Eh. What? this cracks me up! ha ha ha. who is this guy!?
?

Well to be honest I could be forgiven for thinking that, 'mycroft's very first post on the boards system was to refute my assertations find the link here, further more when 'mycroft' responded I hadn't about posted the Garda brutality issue for quite a while, and my latest posts on they thread, here and here had not been about RTS specificily ... so in fact he must have read the whole very long thread (couple of pages back) to find they previous thrust of the discussion and choosen to respond to me only.

It is the system of policing that is truly at fault here and the big boys are only too happy to have a few scapegoats.

ah yes the very thrust of my point, the majority of Garda are not to blame for actions of the few nor of their superiors, I have seen witch hunts repeatidily in the uk and have not wish for the fox/sky news style of police reform to be visited on the Garda ...

I think we have explored this topic quite indeptily and I would be happy to continue, but I feel we are going around in circles. This is my final word on the subject, should have known better than to stray out of IOFFL into politics.

mycroft am still waiting on you to upload me some video to an FTP site ?

mycroft

kitty-kat I told you very earily on that the information I was refering to came from an informal conversation I had with a court clerk some months ago. Without telling you the name of the clerk, the date, time, place of conversation and what we ate for lunch, I amn't sure how I could have been above more above board about the source of my information. When I say I have no definite information, I don't have the name and nationality of all 24, and from what I can gather neither does 'mycroft'.

---

No I've provided you with information about everyone currently facing charges. If no one facing charges is a member of your mysterious cult of hardcore international anarchist terrorist thugs. Combine with the fact that theres no mention of them in the GCB report, or they can't be seen on any video footage.

http://www.indymedia.ie/archives/arch4.hmtl

or via sampler rte.ie/sampler

We can either assume your source was false, or you were making this up, or they were invisible hardcore anarchist ninjas.

---

Well to be honest I could be forgiven for thinking that, 'mycroft's very first post on the boards system was to refute my assertations find the link here, further more when 'mycroft' responded I hadn't about posted the Garda brutality issue for quite a while, and my latest posts on they thread, here and here had not been about RTS specificily ... so in fact he must have read the whole very long thread (couple of pages back) to find they previous thrust of the discussion and choosen to respond to me only.

---

I wuz just passin through sheriff. I only found boards.ie a number of weeks ago and only now found something worth posting about.

Serendipity n all.

---

ah yes the very thrust of my point, the majority of Garda are not to blame for actions of the few nor of their superiors, I have seen witch hunts repeatidily in the uk and have not wish for the fox/sky news style of police reform to be visited on the Garda ...

---

There are many other groups in ireland persecuted by the media (immigrants for example) they should be put on the endangered list way before the poor Gardaí

The lads can take care of themselves

Anyway footage from a variety of people can be seen at that link, for your viewing pleasure:ninja:

MDR

Anyway footage from a variety of people can be seen at that link, for your viewing pleasure

As I have said before (in this thread) I struggled to find stuff on the indymedia website, I found it quite unforfilling. I had high hopes you would upload something for me .... but there you go ...

We can either assume your source was false, or you were making this up, or they were invisible hardcore anarchist ninjas.

So can we presume now that anyone who quotes a third party is making it up, next time I see the party in question I will pick his brains further. You still haven't proved conclusively that they weren't there I might add, half does not make a whole and all that, but you have fairily compelling evidence. If you come here and elect yourself as an expert, expect to have youf facts scrutinised, I made no such assertations about my own facts, and made it amply clear they where third party.

I wuz just passin through sheriff. I only found boards.ie a number of weeks ago and only now found something worth posting about.

Fair enough, but it certainily not unknown on the boards for people to bend the truth of their origin and motives (Una McGirr from Esat, on IOFFL). I do have good grounds to be suspicious.

The lads can take care of themselves

The Garda who caught Charlie J speeding and reported, add him to the 'where are they now file', no they can't always look after themselves. They need people to temper views expressed about them occasionally, I am compelled to respond when others make assertations that volience is the only language the Garda understand etc .... I made it clear from the start I believed there where Garda that acted very inappropriately that day.

Just out interest, what are the 12 people still awaiting court charged with, this goes back to my previous point of what started it all off ?

Redshift

I find it interesting to talk to people who are going to to be going to this event, I know three only one works early 20s no commitments job is only 10 min walk from his home. The other two are students who have a nice easy commute from just out side town they semm to start around 10 most mornings. My point is that alot of people who are attending this event are young, idealistic, but haven't a clue how the world works. All three of these people still live with mom and dad, have barely any experience competing in the modern world, they have no clue what lies ahead of them. In thier world it's all so simple 15 mins on the bus into college at 9:30 after rush hour mind you, of course they think I can do it whay can't everybody else. I spoke to one of these lads about it last week were in an organization together and he was telling me all about RTS and how great it was he was also telling me of the evils of car ownership and that those who drive them are just lazy so and so's. I asked the chap a few questions. So with housing prices and all the way they are where are you going to live in the future when you enter the work force leave home and God willing have a family? Do you think you are going to be able to buy a house next door to mom and dad with a nice easy commute everyday? He couldn't really answer obviously, I then asked him if he had to move out as far as clane or mullingar or wexford and commute to your job in Dublin every day what then would you think of car ownership and before you say there are trains from those locations two points have you ever caught one at rush hour? secondly most people in these areas live way too far from the stations to walk. What also about getting the Kids to school the wife will have to do that if she can afford to be home school could be 15 or more miles away and your wife might also have to work she could very well need a car to do all these tasks.
so I says with that in mind think about how you could end up moving from being a car hating idealistic student to being part of a two car family living in a Semi D trapped in the commuter belt and that is a snapshot of the nightmare that faces countless Irish families every working day. these are also the same people who are sitting in those cars you hate so much. Just some food for thought, BTW I think the idea of RTS and Car free days/periods is essentially a good one but you people are way too idealistic plus you put forward no viable alternatives and the one that turns me off you altogether is your refusal to co-operate with the Gardai that I'm afraid is unforgivable and portrays you as reckless in your organization showing no regard for other people and also you leave yourselves open to being hijacked by other interests.

I could go on all night but I wish you luck anyway even if I don't aggree with you I hope it's peacfull and nobody is hurt, remember the Gardai are doing their jobs as they have a mandate to do, if you break the law you deserve to be removed and punished as appropriate. I know there was some heavy handed application of the law last time but you didn't help yourselves at all with the carry on last year.
Regards

Redshift

Shorty

http://uk.indymedia.org:8081/search-process.php3?medium=video&keyword=RTS+Dublin

chewy

lots of people seem to have a big problem with youth and idealism

both anti-war and anti-car etc lobbying is idealistic that doesn't mean we should give up

i see all thes articles about how older people live in the real world etc etc
i say thank god for youth and idealism thank god


what else is there in life
that rts guy you were talking to probably hasn't got all the answers but he has an interest in the problem he may one of the people who help to solve it and he will try his best to live up to those ideals, lets hope he doesn't end up in most people real world life

Redshift

Nothing at all wrong with youthfull idealism, I remember being the same. It's a pity the modern rat race world we live in crushes it out so quickly, I'm only 25 so I remember being a student clearly I'm not pessimistic infact I'm anything but, but life is a lot more complex and difficult than I thought it would be. Once you start your career and have to cut it on your own and realize how poxy the world can be idealism sadly fades. You shouldn't give up at all and my only real gripe with RTS is the way it is organized it could so easily be an all inclusive fun event run in conjuction with car free day or something and in co operation with the authorities. All alot of people see it as is a honeypot for trouble makers and malcontents
Sitting on roads, roaring and shouting and smashing up a car having to be dragged away by the guards don't sit well with the public in general. I know the car in question belonged to whoever was smashing it but regardless you can't just do that, how are the guards supposed to know that is doesn't belong to somebody else, again organization. Even the name RTS sounds hostile why not call it something else and make it into an event people would't be afraid to bring their kids into to have a good time.

Regards
Ryan

P.S. Nobody has all the answers but we can still try.

bonkey

Originally posted by chewy
lots of people seem to have a big problem with youth and idealism

I wouldnt say that at all.

Most of the people who criticise youthful idealism do so because they used to have it themselves and see why it had to be abandoned.

Its not that they have a problem with others having it now, but rather that they see the limitations of it and why it never really accomplishes as much as it seems it should.

What should we do? We could smile knowingly at those who have youthful idealism and say to ourselves "its ok - we can ignore them - they will grow out of it when they experience more of the real world". I think that would be worse, personally.

Generally, the criticism of youthful idealism (at least around this forum) tends to be along the lines of how to make a better impression on those of us who have succumbed to the banality and reality of modern-day urban life.

Youtful idealism is all well and good for making a point, but who's gonna follow that up? Who's gonna give it the momentum it needs? In this case its the people who drive their cars, and the various transport bodies etc. etc. etc. almost none of whom are riddled with youthful idealism either.

Having the idealism to believe in a better world is a great thing. Having the sense to realise that your aim should be to convert those who do not share the idealism rather than making a statement which pisses off so many of those same people......that seems to be the missing ingredient.

jc

shotamoose

Originally posted by bonkey
Most of the people who criticise youthful idealism do so because they used to have it themselves and see why it had to be abandoned.

Its not that they have a problem with others having it now, but rather that they see the limitations of it and why it never really accomplishes as much as it seems it should.

I think that's debatable. It's certainly one of the reasons. But I've seen a lot of outright hostility to idealism on these boards, which I think is partly due to shame at having given up too easily on one's own ideals in the face of the complexity, difficulty and tedium of 'real life'.

Yes, all these things make someone question their ideals, but if those ideals were any good in the first place they will stand up to the scrutiny and survive as priniciples necessary for getting through and making the most out of 'real life'. So if you've lost your idealism it might not be because they weren't strong enough but because you weren't strong enough to hold on to them.

This is not to condemn anyone, as different people have different priorities in life. But having lost or abandoned your ideals is not grounds enough for criticising those of eithers.

This, however, is:

Youtful idealism is all well and good for making a point, but who's gonna follow that up? Who's gonna give it the momentum it needs? In this case its the people who drive their cars, and the various transport bodies etc. etc. etc. almost none of whom are riddled with youthful idealism either.

Having the idealism to believe in a better world is a great thing. Having the sense to realise that your aim should be to convert those who do not share the idealism rather than making a statement which pisses off so many of those same people......that seems to be the missing ingredient.

Exactly. Political activists have to realise that change comes about through securing the agreement of the politically inactive, who won't respond to fervent idealism alone. Beating people over the head with slogans rarely does the trick - you've got to put to them a convincing argument framed in their own terms, or else why should they listen?

seedot

This debate is probably the best I've seen to date on RTS but a couple of posters have now focussed on the 'youthful idealism' of RTS

Nothing at all wrong with youthfull idealism, I remember being the same. It's a pity the modern rat race world we live in crushes it out so quickly, I'm only 25 so I remember being a student clearly I'm not pessimistic infact I'm anything but, but life is a lot more complex and difficult than I thought it would be. Once you start your career and have to cut it on your own and realize how poxy the world can be idealism sadly fades. You shouldn't give up at all and my only real gripe with RTS is the way it is organized it could so easily be an all inclusive fun event run in conjuction with car free day or something and in co operation with the authorities. All alot of people see it as is a honeypot for trouble makers and malcontents

OK - I'm 33, I drive a car (including driving in to the last 2 RTS events) and bring my own child and meet a number of other parents who bring children to the events.

I don't see RTS as a protest - if it's a protest that means it will stop if granted some demand. Given that the demand seems to be for a different type of city, with no concrete steps outlined, it is a v. poor form of protest.

RTS is much more part of a process of challenging values for the attendees - why can you not dance in the middle of the city, why are the only 'family' events heavily commercialised, who actually controls the thoroughfares of our city - politicians?, guards?, the chamber of commerce? or the citizens?. It is confrontational - but when challenging an entrenched set of values it is sometimes necessary to be confrontational - when Merrion square is closed off for the Patricks festival so people can sell you crap food and rides on a poor funfair no debate occurs, nobody thinks about how the city should be.

RTS is a party - the real kind with music and games and food not the type full of hot air and arguments. It came out of parties that were outlawed after the fact as the British (and subsequently the irish) tried to stamp out people gathering to dance to 'repetitive thudding beats' (the description in the british legislation). Now there's less e and more facepainting, juggling and sandwiches but it has the same effect - of radicalising people who are otherwise excluded.

As a car driver, congestion charges, exclusion zones and all the other options to change our city will involve some discomfort for me - but RTS reminds me that the city is actually better if it is alive, populated and on foot. Also that this is possible.

I would suggest people continue this debate next Monday - by turning up at the GPO, following the crowd and asking them why they are there.

There's a lot of answers - but thats the way it should be if we are going to change the values we have.

mazzyianne

wow, well put
It should be a family thing, all you people should be there. Just imagine what the city could be like, it could be beautiful...

Give up grumping about RTS, come along and see for yourselves. Maybe you'll be inspired by the youthful idealism

We'll even give ya a free sandwich
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

kitty-kat

Hallo all,
I'm sorry i've missed a lot of what's gone on on this thread over the last couple of weeks. I have really enjoyed being a part of this and intend to keep the discussion going after Monday (there will be much ore fat to chew I'm sure!) I've just been really busy preparing for Monday!

I've gotten the impression that everyone here is genuinely keen to discuss and resolve the issues raised so i would strongly encourage those who are skeptical, keen, convinced and confused to come on Monday. The perspectives you're going to get on this list are going to be limited to the number of people involved - far fewer than the party itself, naturally. Also it's easier to understand an event by actually attending!

So far there is Samba, trad, reggae, dub, techno, street theatre, street art, jugglers & similar street performers, food (hopefully), football, who know's maybe even badminton, like in Sept.
I'd strongly encourage the curious to bring along themselves, a friend and the means for some fun i.e. be that a guitar, a football or whatever. And for godsake some o' ye come in costume!! There's only about 4 of us that do every time and i'm running out of ideas!

See you Monday. xx

MDR

Is it this monday ?

If so, I genuinely wish you the best of luck on day, I hope you get decent weather for the event, and I am sure we all hope, no matter what opinions we hold on what happened in may last year, that the day is peacefully.

All the best,

Ray Kinsella

Redshift

Yeah, I hope it goes well and is peacefull and stays in the spirt of what it's supposed to be about, Fun. Tell any trouble makers that might try to join you that they are not welcome. It only takes a coulple of idiots to spoil the whole thing. Have a blast anyway, if I'm in town I might mosey on over.

vasch_ro

just a few wee small points I would like to clear up MDR
the GRA is not in fact a Union it has no Union status afforded to it as it is illegal for Irish Policemen to have a union, it is a representative body, this may seem like a cosmetic difference but it is in fact quite different.

Now moving onto to other posts(ie not MDR's) to be quite frank I think it is just plainly ill conceived to say that all the Gardai understand is violence, obviously this is just not the case and to be honest I think it is a bit childish to say this, but hey thats free speech.

I feel that there are interesting days ahead but if RTS wish to get their message across they will need to work on not alienating the wider public. I feel the public have no wish to have their streets recliamed for them, except maybe to have them recliamed to their pre pot holed days !!!

Redshift

Originally posted by vasch_ro

I feel that there are interesting days ahead but if RTS wish to get their message across they will need to work on not alienating the wider public. I feel the public have no wish to have their streets recliamed for them, except maybe to have them recliamed to their pre pot holed days !!!

Well Put.

Red

MDR

it as it is illegal for Irish Policemen to have a union

GRA - Garda Representative Assocation .... yes I was aware of this, the Garda themselves consider it to be their "union" as its is the only representation they have and has organised union-esque activities such as the blue flu, in the past, although they (and I) are aware its not a union in the proper sense, most of them feel its useless.

It being illegal for them to have a proper union, is a source annoyance for many, especially in light of the benchmarking awards ... but thats all slightily OT.