Reclaim the Streets

kitty-kat

QUOTE: Not a single Garda sustained even the most minor of injuries.
Do you have any press evidence to back this up ? or is this good old hearsay, because the hearsay I heard was that the senior member of the garda had a few stitches in the side of his head

I trawled through every newspaper after the event and am a regular news watcher neither I nor anyone I know heard any such report. There is no doubt in my mind any such injury would have been trumpeted. So your right, hearsay is a waste of time.

Without wishing to divert too much from the point a woman was taken to hospital with head injuries that night and a friend of mine was dragged by the throat and sustained huge grazes and bruises – to name but one.

QUOTE: The Garda had very little notification of what was going to happen and where, makes things a little bit difficult to organise. So great care and consideration was not given.

I’ll repeat because the context of that paragraph seems to have been lost. Great care and consideration was given to the location so as not to alienate the very people we are appealing to i.e. Public transport users and other sympathetic types. Yes of course no one was “appointed” to liase with the cops. When we had peacefully celebrated for a good 3 ½ hours and wanted to move off peacefully and safely, a few people approached the Gardaí (on both occasions – May & Sept) and informed the Gardaí of our intentions to move the crowd somewhere where everyone could disperse safely (Civic Offices in May & Stephen’s Grn in Sept.). One the first occasion they ignored us and blocked the crowd several times along the quays, eventually pushing the crowd onto Parliament St. on the second occasion they were most obliging. ; ) no fracas, no melee, no ****. Very little reportage.

QUOTE: problems are much more complex than they seems, Ireland has a high rate of car ownership largily because of the ribbon development nature of Irish housing, everyone wants their little house on a boreen with .6 of a acre around it, deny an Irish person this and it will be claimed you are invading there human/civil rights.

I agree, a huge part of the challenge that faces people campaigning for sustainable transport is value change. Our small island simply cannot sustain the nature of development that is taking place. What I’m really driving at (oops! Excuse the pun) is enormous estates of (identikit eyesore) houses, most significantly with not even a cornershop in sight, residents have to drive to get a pint of milk, never mind take kids to school, or get to work. The problem is of course at it’s worst in the Dublin area but it must be remembered such artificial little “suburbs” are springing up all over Ireland and are forcing people into their cars. Lets face it – who actually wants to sit in their car for hours on end every day, right?

It strikes me that there doesn’t seem too much debate on the need to cut our car use, more the means by which we appeal to Joe public. I don’t think there is any one way (if I’m wrong tell me!!!) I think the issue must be tackled on many, many fronts. Car culture is so detrimental in so many ways it is just about demonstrating this to people in a way that they see the immediate relevance to their lives. A lot of people really don’t give a **** about the “environment”, their none to keen about getting ripped off to waste hours day in day out though. Etc.
Personally I see street parties as a means among many to effect change.

QUOTE re RURAL AREAS: The same analysis could be applied to rural areas, too, I suppose, but then space isn't as rationed there, is it?

Ehhh…yes!

QUOTE: I just don’t want to be a poster boy for the SWP/F who get RIGHT up my hooter with their bandwagonning.

Bloody Bloody Bloody oath!!!!! Yet another bloody challenge.

Speaking more broadly though, it’s interesting to see; on numerous occasions (anti war demos incld.) I have seen such an array of different people engaging with one pain in the arse and just politely ask that they quit whatever is they’re doing that’s endangering/annoying etc. people. Sooner or later with enough respectful requests, without ANY authority figure I have seen many a problem resolved. DEMOCRATICALLY. It really is up to people on the day to be assertive and think hey hold on a minute this is my space too and I’ve every right to ASK this person to stop. It might sound like bull****, but that’s exactly what we are conditioned to think that there needs to be someone in charge. Events like these can be very empowering indeed.


And in the interest of accuracy (of which I am a big fan!) the information I got from ENFO was 3 years old! So it was actually 23% of the total transport investment budget between 1996 –1999 (not last yr) that was spent on public transport. I’m sure that figure has increased during this period what with LUAS and all.

Ye might want to check out.
http://www.carfree.com
http://www.carbusters.org[/URL]

MDR

There is no doubt in my mind any such injury would have been trumpeted. So your right, hearsay is a waste of time.

As I remember, the Garda did very little talking about the event after the event, this was because there is a legal obligation on the Garda not to discuss with the media any event for which people may be procescuted (spelling ?).

RTS supporters where free to paint the Garda in anyway they wished after the event and the Garda where quite powerless to respond. So you really have no basis to say what did or did not happen to the Garda on that day, from what I heard from some members of the Garda, they were honest that some members acted very inapproproately but the RTS where alot less than the anarchist angels they would have themselves portaited as.

Without wishing to divert too much from the point a woman was taken to hospital with head injuries that night and a friend of mine was dragged by the throat and sustained huge grazes and bruises – to name but one.

Forgive my scepticism but the number of people worming their way out of the woodwork since RTS last year, claiming victimisation at the hands of the Garda has been astonding. Don't get me wrong, there are enough genuine cases of brutality on that day for us to be very concerned.

The actual footage on indymedia (quite capable if not a little basised reporting), images of people being attacked where there but still not in the proportions many would have us believe.

I suppose my point is that at this stage I am well used to hearing exaggerated claims of persecution of crusties (again your words not mine) at the hands of the Garda, and indeed the London Metropolitan Police (Mayday riots), the PSNI (quite recentily), the Parisian police etc (the 'A pied' protests I attended in '97) ...

few people approached the Gardaí (on both occasions – May & Sept) and informed the Gardaí of our intentions to move the crowd somewhere where everyone could disperse safely .

Normally it is courtesy for groups such as RTS to have protests such as this, liased with the Garda from a very earily stage. Its is not sufficent to decide on the day what is going to happen and where, nor is sufficent for a group of people to approach the Garda with requests to go to place X or Y etc ...

The centre of Dublin city as most metropolitan areas is a very busy place, and organising protests to go off without a hitch is something the Garda authorities have become, well in light of last years RTS's 'expert' is proababily too kind a word, let us say skilled over the years.

There are plenty of protests on the streets of Dublin over the course of the year, every year, and the Garda usually preform their job quite well, in particular (others have heard me comment on this on the boards recentily, sorry if I am repeating myself). I watched the peace protest of Saturday March 29th last from Molesworth Street, the protestors charged like mad men out in front of traffic on St Stevens Green, running underneath buses etc. The Garda acting quickily and professionally to the situation.

RTS and similar anti-gobalisation groups have had endless trouble elsewhere in Europe, I was therefore I am sorry to say I was not suprised when it came to Dublin.

Personally I see street parties as a means among many to effect change.

The large majority of the people who attend RTS parties are young late teens and earily twenties students, surely if you want to effect change you would need to appeal to a wider cross section of the population ?

kitty-kat

The media reported no Garda injury after MAy 6th. Why? because there was none.

QUOTE: Normally it is courtesy for groups such as RTS to have protests such as this, liased with the Garda from a very earily stage. Its is not sufficent to decide on the day what is going to happen and where, nor is sufficent for a group of people to approach the Garda with requests to go to place X or Y etc ...

No it is not. RTS have never, to my knowledge, liased with authorities, at ANY stage. People seem to forget that May 6th was the first street arty a lot of the organisers even attended! Never mind organised. Previous parties had been tiny events, ending after less than an hour. This turnout was unprecedented and, largely and unfortunately, unprepared for. we simply never dreamed we’d get 1,000+ on the day. Please focus your critique on September last, in case you weren’t there briefly…
There was a planned wrap up time, a definite route to the ending off point, no violence, good communication with the cops, which, incidentally, is Never a "request to go to place X or Y". A statement of clear intent to peacefully walk through our own city, nothing more.

My use of the word “crusties” was ironic, as you know, so perhaps we can move now beyond pigeon-holing. It does no-one any justice.

QUOTE: The large majority of the people who attend RTS parties are young late teens and earily twenties students, surely if you want to effect change you would need to appeal to a wider cross section of the population ?

Emm… yes. That is why I believe it is one means among many. Parties appeal to some people other actions/campaigns/initiatives etc. appeal to others.
That is many of us direct our attention and energy elsewhere also.

regards.

bonkey

Originally posted by MDR
The large majority of the people who attend RTS parties are young late teens and earily twenties students, surely if you want to effect change you would need to appeal to a wider cross section of the population ?

I'd imagine that the argued logic there is that we need to appeal to the up-and-coming generation, as it is they who will really make the difference.

Unfortunately, history is littered with up-and-coming generations who should have made a difference and havent, as they lose their "easy" youthful idealism once faced with the realities of the increasing personal and familial responsibilities they have making their way in the world.

Ultimately, RTS claims to be about "raising awareness" - which is a fair point. Unfortunately, the awareness that it raises is that there's a lot of people who would disrupt traffic for a party, and talk about "reclaiming" the streets.

Reclaim them from who? The traffic? thats who the streets were put there for. What were streets before traffic that we should reclaim them?

Reclaim them for what? The only message RTS seems to send is "for fun". I can really see that having a practical application in the middle of Dublin city...which already shuts down large urban areas on a semi-regular basis for organised street parties and other events. Indeed, such events show how it is possible to stage large social events on the streets of Dublin without adding to the traffic disruption massively, or with an organised traffic plan so that people can at least be aware of where the problems are.

So is it "fun when appropriate", or is it that the streets should be useable for any reason at any time? The latter is in appropriate. The former is already there.

So is it just about congestion? I hope not. I don't think anyone needs a major event to tell them that Dublin has a traffic problem.

This is the basic problem. RTS - the event - sends the wrong message. RTS - the "advocates" - then spend a massive amount of energy trying to tell people why this happy, good demonstration wasnt actually the anarchistic, damn-the-system excuse for a party that it has appeared to be, and that there was a really friendly message underneath it all. And whats that message? The only message I seem to get out of it is that our streets would be better if they werent so congested? I think urban residents figured that out long ago, and without a street-party to jog along their mental processes.

If the message isnt getting through from the event itself, maybe its the event which is at fault, and not the observers. Is it just some blind belief that if the same format is used enough times that people will suddenly stop viewing it as a problem and suddenly go "Right - I didnt get that it was about <insert cause here> the last 20 times, but now I see that it really is". Come on....

I love that we're even having this discussion about a "semi-spontaneous" event....which has its time, date, location etc. carefully scripted and chosen, and its existence advertised. What makes it semi-spontaneous?

"Semi-advertised" I'd agree with - as the location is not disclosed (but going by the careful consideration that went into Burgh Quay, we can assume the location has been researched and decided), but there is nothing spontaneous about these events any more.

The only difference I can see between an RTS event in Dublin, and one of the myriad of officially organised street-parties that have been held is that key information for one is deliberately withheld from the authorities, whilst the other is carefully planned and orchestrated to cause the minimum disruption.

Funnily, the disruptive on is supposed to send the message about how better our streets could be. I cant see how that works.

jc

jc

MDR

The media reported no Garda injury after MAy 6th. Why? because there was none.

The onus is quite clearily on me then to provide sources citing Garda injury on the day, but as the sources I have consulted wouldn't appreciate me quoting them, I will have to let the matter rest. Suffice say to journo's are very fickle and lack of media attentions on an issue or over-exposure of another issues, is not evidence of anything.

There are several facts the journos' lightly skipped over ... quite a few of the people arrested at the May RTS in Dublin where English for instance, some had previous convictions in the uk for volience at Mayday marchs etc ...

That is many of us direct our attention and energy elsewhere also.

Could you expand on that ?

bonkey

Originally posted by kitty-kat
QUOTE: Normally it is courtesy for groups such as RTS to have protests such as this, liased with the Garda from a very earily stage. ...

No it is not. RTS have never, to my knowledge, liased with authorities, at ANY stage.

Read what was written. It is courtesy for groups who wish to have a protest to liaise with the Gardai concerning the details of their protest.

The fact that no RTS group have ever done this is only backing the "somewhat irresponsible" claim further....as you are admitting that they do not give the gardai this courtesy. The only justification you seem to offer is "we never offer this".

A statement of clear intent to peacefully walk through our own city, nothing more.

Clear intent? No offence, but could you actually explain how you - or any orgniser - could be aware of the intents of each and every member of the attendance?

Surely you mean that it was the clear intent of the organisers to lead a bunch of people peacefully through the city and hope that the people would do as you wished.

Which reminds me....

Do the RTS organisers accept responsibility - including financial - for any personal, corporate, or civic damage which may ensue as a result of attendees not abiding by the organiser's "clear intent"?

Given that the organisation of the event specifically excludes the authorities, to do any less would be nothing but gross irresponsibility, as the organisers are directly culpable for the creation of the situation within which such damage was caused.

So....do they? And if not, why not?

jc

kitty-kat

Reclaim them from who? The traffic? thats who the streets were put there for. What were streets before traffic that we should reclaim them?

Dublin city was not designed with cars in mind, the city is over 1,000 years old, not 100. Human traffic, bikes, pedestrians, horses even, but not cars. The philosophy, to my mind, is to reclaim public space for the people that should have dominion over it… the public. That’s not more pedestrian streets with lots of great shops!! Or more parks (though I love them) practicalities must be addressed we need to get around; go to work, school, shops etc. We need a sustainable, healthy liveable city - in a democracy the people of an area should at the very least, have a say in how that is done.

What makes it semi-spontaneous?

The fact that no one is telling others what to do. People are invited to attend as both guest and host, bring instruments, food or whatever else they need to have a good time. Take responsibility for themselves and the area around them and cease being so bloody passive.

QUOTE: That is many of us direct our attention and energy elsewhere also.
Could you expand on that ?

I can only speak for myself, and I’d rather not expand actually, unfortunately you’re just going to have to take my word. (or not, as the case may be)

QUOTE: Normally it is courtesy for GROUPS SUCH AS RTS to have protests such as this, liased with the Garda from a very earily stage.

Read what was written. I did.

It is courtesy for groups who wish to have a protest – well that covers a multitude doesn’t it?

to liaise with the Gardai concerning the details of their protest.

The fact that no RTS group have ever done this is only backing the "somewhat irresponsible" claim further....as you are admitting that they do not give the gardai this courtesy.

Courtesy my arse. So you think if we ask nicely and they say no we should pack up and join the SWP; they seem to have a great handle on sheparding demoralising “protests” (or recruitment sessions)

The only justification you seem to offer is "we never offer this".

Because it is in neither the tradition nor philosophy of those, throughout the world who participate in RTS events, to ask for permission and give a detailed plan. If the police choose to join and feel their talents are best served looking for and stopping trouble, well and good. But they are not needed (please read previous posts) there is a long history of non-violent conflict resolution, maybe not in this country, but it’s growing. People are actually capable of taking responsibility for themselves and those around them without the threat or use of violence. (the only means Gardaí understand and employ).

QUOTE: No offence, but could you actually explain how you - or any orgniser - could be aware of the intents of each and every member of the attendance

I don’t pretend to and anyone who does is a fool.

QUOTE: Do the RTS organisers accept responsibility - including financial - for any personal, corporate, or civic damage which may ensue as a result of attendees not abiding by the organiser's "clear intent"?

Is this genuine or facetious?

QUOTE: There are several facts the journos' lightly skipped over ... quite a few of the people arrested at the May RTS in Dublin where English for instance…
And their nationality is relevant why?

some had previous convictions in the uk for volience at Mayday marchs etc ...

I see, yes the police in the U.K have always been very tolerant of protestors, very reasonable. No bull**** convictions. I must look into these rebel rousers and cancel their invitations.

I’m curious to hear alternative proposals. The criticism is great and I enjoy these questions being posed but what about suggestions too?

Forgive me, i'll probably have to leave it there for today lads, or i'm likely to loose my job!
Ciao for now.
KK

mazzyianne

Originally posted by DeVore
Will SWP or SWF be there?

If so how can you claim it will be "unbranded".

DeV

Well, it's pretty impossible to ban anyone from going to RTS, its a free open party.
I was going to make 'SWP? Not me' badges )or to be more fair party political not me, but it doesnt have quite the same ring to it) and hand them out, but Im not sure I'll get around to making them.
T-shirts would be good.

As for arranging things with the gardai, I dont believe this should be done.
I mean protests are always pre arranged with the gardai, we turn up we are hoarded up and down streets, given a nice safe zone in which to release any anger, let off steam or whatever. Chant, sing, dance. We are kept to the streets where not to many people will notice us, only those in cars whos way we are obstructing (bad when protest has nothing to do with cars) and then when it's all over we go home made to feel like we've done something when infact we have achieved nothing.
There's a great article called the policing of mass protest all about a study done on this in London. P.A.J. Waddington I believe it was wrote it.
I think this is why violence errupts at protests, its frustrating and people realise they are not being listened to and anger is turned against the Gardai, as the symbol of the state or whatever.
I hope this makes sense, its been bugging me for ages

MDR

Courtesy my arse. So you think if we ask nicely and they say no we should pack up and join the SWP; they seem to have a great handle on sheparding demoralising “protests”

i would not presume to call the 100,000 people who took to the street peacefully to protest against the war in iraq a demoralised protest.

Because it is in neither the tradition nor philosophy of those, throughout the world who participate in RTS events, to ask for permission and give a detailed plan.

No-one is compelling you to ask permission to have a protest, despite the 1984-esque propaganda peddled by many, Ireland is a democratic nation, and you do have the right to protest about whatever you damn well feel like it. But most people would see though as being a reasonable courtesy to liase with the Garda to minimise distruption to the other people of the city. The first step of seek to change the attidutes of a people is respect for those same people and their way of life.

And their nationality is relevant why?

I will paint the picture i illuded to a little clearer shall I, they came to Ireland specifically to cause trouble, a desproportionate number of english young people where arrested that day, none of them where Irish Residents. Long way to come for a street party ?

People are actually capable of taking responsibility for themselves and those around them without the threat or use of violence. (the only means Gardaí understand and employ).

You said earilier that you would be foolish to know the motives or intentions of all the RTS party goers, you then sir would equally foolish to claim to know the intentions or motives or the 11,000 + Garda. Most of us have had positive and negative expierence of the Garda, as with any profession or organisation I don't suppose to write off the whole lot because the actions of the few, if the Garda had only understood volience and threat would we not have a RTS fiasco at every protest in Dublin ?

Here is a suggestion for go down to Pearse street or Store Garda station before the next RTS and sit down with the inspector or station sergerant and get things organised. (although I suspect this may have already been done).

MDR

I think this is why violence errupts at protests, its frustrating and people realise they are not being listened to and anger is turned against the Gardai, as the symbol of the state or whatever.
I hope this makes sense, its been bugging me for ages

Makes quite alot of sense, although it needs to tempered against the right of other citizens to get on with their lives with minimum of distruption.

How do you allow everyone who wants to protest the absolute freedom to do so (and there are alot of groups who protest) without fear of censorship or oppression, but still ensure that Mrs Brennan in No 24 gets home from the shops in time for fair city.

kitty-kat

Courtesy my arse. So you think if we ask nicely and they say no we should pack up and join the SWP; they seem to have a great handle on sheparding demoralising “protests”

i would not presume to call the 100,000 people who took to the street peacefully to protest against the war in iraq a demoralised protest.

That was organised by the Irish Anti War Movement was it not? and attended by hundreds, if not thousands of non-affliated individuals. I do hope you are not suggesting that the SWP were the sole heroes of that venture? It was a fantastic, unforgettable, hopeful and empowering day, I mean that sincerely - it did nothing to stop refuelling.


Quote:

Because it is in neither the tradition nor philosophy of those, throughout the world who participate in RTS events, to ask for permission and give a detailed plan.
But most people would see though as being a reasonable courtesy to liase with the Garda to minimise distruption to the other people of the city.

I guess we’re back to perception and personal terms of reference. You see. I don’t think it is necessarily discourteous not to liase with them. I do not consider this particular event as falling within they’re job description. A community get together does not need hired thugs. If they want to come in costume, fair enough, it is actually encouraged (costume, not uniform) Shouldn’t they be out catching crims or something? Surely a protest that causes little disruption is a bit of a misnomer isn’t it? Choosing bank holidays or Sundays is one way of minimising disruption to the people i think you are in fear of alienating.

QUOTE: The first step of seek to change the attidutes of a people is respect for those same people and their way of life.

Absolutely. And the second step is to challenge them …just a little at first…


QUOTE: I will paint the picture i illuded to a little clearer shall I, they came to Ireland specifically to cause trouble, a desproportionate number of english young people where arrested that day, none of them where Irish Residents. Long way to come for a street party ?

it's a long way to come for a hen night too, but people do it (though why escapes me)

Awright, I’m sorry, I can’t let this one go. How many English out of how many arrestees? Or if you really need to protect your “sources” what percentage?

quote:
People are actually capable of taking responsibility for themselves and those around them without the threat or use of violence. (the only means Gardaí understand and employ).
You said earlier that you would be foolish to know the motives or intentions of all the RTS party goers, you then sir would equally foolish to claim to know the intentions or motives or the 11,000 + Garda.

…if the Garda had only understood volience and threat would we not have a RTS fiasco at every protest in Dublin ?

I never claimed to know the intentions or motives of the 11,000+ Gardaí. I was referring to the means by which the apparatus operates, it is thus:

If you are good* we don’t know you.
If you are in need of help*; we help you.
If you are bad*, we arrest (or beat) & imprison you, or both

*by our terms.

Now, a lot of people believe we need individuals with extra power over us because they alone stand between law and order and utter mayhem. Hmmmm… I have a little more faith in my fellow human beings. I’ve been in small and very large groups where no one person or group was responsible – because we all were. And you know what? nobody killed anyone, stole, wantonly destroyed things or hurt anybody!
Every Gard has the leverage, (in any debate/row/confrontation) of the state’s permission to use violence against us, however mild. They each have the power to deny another human being their liberty, for however short a period of time. Gards can shove people around, manhandle, bruise etc. as part of their “duty”; a lay person can be charged for merely resisting, even if peacefully!!! Whether or not the gard resorts to violence is a matter of his/her discretion, I’m not for a moment saying they all would. I’m saying they have approval to do so and the THREAT of that domination is the most common means by which they resolve conflict.

QUOTE: Most of us have had positive and negative expierence of the Garda, as with any profession or organisation I don't suppose to write off the whole lot because the actions of the few.

Yes, I would think you grossly unfair if you did.

regards

bonkey

Originally posted by kitty-kat
The fact that no RTS group have ever done this is only backing the "somewhat irresponsible" claim further....as you are admitting that they do not give the gardai this courtesy.
Courtesy my arse. So you think if we ask nicely and they say no we should pack up and join the SWP; they seem to have a great handle on sheparding demoralising “protests” (or recruitment sessions)

Who said anything about asking? Tell them where it will be, when it will be, estimated size, what the organisers consider to be acceptable behaviour by attendees and what is not (thus giving the police a mandate to interfere quickly should things get begin to get out of hand).

It is no secret as to what date the next RTS will be held on. As a result, the police will have their manpower lined up, as well as all the riot kit and what have you, and will be just sitting on a knife-edge so that as soon as they hear where the event is they can get there as quickly as possible.

Of course, by knowing where the event will be, they can manage the disturbance caused...unless of course part of the idea of RTS is to show how giving the streets back to the public will cause disturbances, rather than give us our "freedom" back.

But they are not needed (please read previous posts)

First of all, that is not your decision to make.
Secondly, having read previous posts, I noticed this about the first RTS :

This turnout was unprecedented and, largely and unfortunately, unprepared for.

Right...so the police are not wanted or needed, even when the organisers screw things up? OK.

You ask us to ignore this first one, and I ask why? It was an RTS. It was orgnised as such. Events outside the control of the organisers screwed it up for everyone. Now what have you put in place to prevent this happening again, bearing in mind that you claim its spontaneous because there is (and I quote) "no-one telling anyone what to do".

QUOTE: No offence, but could you actually explain how you - or any orgniser - could be aware of the intents of each and every member of the attendance

I don’t pretend to and anyone who does is a fool.

Yet you notified the police of "your clear intent" to perform a specific action as a large group. Are you telling me that whoever did that was a fool, or that they werent - in fact - representing the clear intent of the attendees, but rather expressing a hope as to what the intent of the attendees was?

QUOTE: Do the RTS organisers accept responsibility - including financial - for any personal, corporate, or civic damage which may ensue as a result of attendees not abiding by the organiser's "clear intent"?

Is this genuine or facetious?

100% genuine. The RTS organisers decide not to involve the police in the planning. They decide to take the law into their own hands. They decide which part of the city is to have its "public spaces" turned over to them for the attendees to do with as they will (remember - no-one tells anyone what to do, which also means no-one tells them what not to do).

They decide, they enable the masses to congegrate so why arent they responsible? In all forms of mass protest, or mass gathering, the organisers are held to blame, unless they can show that they took all reasonable precautions against whatever transpired.

RTS refuses to give the police advance warning of hte location, so it sure as hell hasnt taken all reasonable precautions.

So I'm 100% genuine. If they dont accept responsibility, explain to me why not.

I’m curious to hear alternative proposals. The criticism is great and I enjoy these questions being posed but what about suggestions too?

To be quite honest, I'm still trying to interepret the message RTS says its trying to send, and the message that is being received by the people. When I get through that, I'll start thinking about the actual overall goal and what I'd do differently.

jc

Borzoi

I've always presumed that the RTS peops wanted increased/enhanced pedestrian areas, and gretaer public transport (who doesn't) but they've never really said.

Would any member care to clarify and quantify what they want, and how it could be achioieved, at what cost, and who'll pay. Surely these issues have been addressed.

Or are they merely another group happy to wander around with placards saying "Down with that sort of thing"

MDR

I do hope you are not suggesting that the SWP were the sole heroes of that venture? It was a fantastic, unforgettable, hopeful and empowering day, I mean that sincerely - it did nothing to stop refuelling.

ah ... on reading back I mis-understood, I assumed you where asserting that all protests which liased with the Garda, where demoralised events etc, apparentily its only the ones organised by the SWP ...

I don’t think it is necessarily discourteous not to liase with them.

every other protest group etc does, why are you special ?

? Surely a protest that causes little disruption is a bit of a misnomer isn’t it?

would you classify sitting in the middle of Dame street and refusing to move ... 'little disruption'.

Shouldn’t they be out catching crims or something?

The name 'An Garda Schíochána' translate as 'guardians of the peace', thats more or less what they are trying to do when policing protests or parades. They aren't only there to tackle crime.

Choosing bank holidays or Sundays is one way of minimising disruption to the people i think you are in fear of alienating.

Also liasing with the Garda to ensure traffic is appropiately diverted etc, is another good way to lessen disruption.

protect your “sources” what percentage?

jesus, that particular conversation I was quoting was a long time ago, there was something like 18 people arrested, 5 or 6 of them where from the uk I think.

Absolutely. And the second step is to challenge them …just a little at first…

you aren't at the second step yet, you are still having trouble with the first respecting them bit, don't get ahead of yourself.

I never claimed to know the intentions or motives of the 11,000+ Gardaí. I was referring to the means by which the apparatus operates, it is thus:

no but you did say

People are actually capable of taking responsibility for themselves and those around them without the threat or use of violence. (the only means Gardaí understand and employ).

painting every Garda with the same brush, so if you quite rightly claim to not know the intentions of every RTS party goer, you certainily cannot claim to know the calibre of every Garda in the nation ... or have you meet every Garda in the country.

I’ve been in small and very large groups where no one person or group was responsible – because we all were. And you know what? nobody killed anyone, stole, wantonly destroyed things or hurt anybody

Probabily in a group of people who choose to be there, to say that the Garda or indeed any police force is not required is equally as foolish as saying that we must live in facist police state for our protection.

Gards can shove people around, manhandle, bruise etc. as part of their “duty”; a lay person can be charged for merely resisting, even if peacefully!!!

Garda are entitled to make resonable requests to enforce law, if you break the law you will be arrested. A Garda isn't really supposed to think of the grander plan, the rights and wrongs as, he job is to enforce the law.

Take for instance the woman who vandalised the plan in Shannon, the Garda had to arrest her for vandalism and tresspassing, but its up to the courts to decide if she was justified in this action not the Garda.

Similarily a bunch of people sit down in Kildare Street and block the throughfair, they are asked to move and they refuse, the Garda is left with no alternative but to inforce the law (well as he sees it). There is no malice on his or her party, I can assure you he/she would be much happy at home with their feet up.

I’m saying they have approval to do so and the THREAT of that domination is the most common means by which they resolve conflict.

I have never meet a Garda who solely resolve problems with the threat of physical domination. The actual instances where the garda can act as a mediator are fairly limited, usually there is very clear law to be inforced but I have first hand seen Garda resolving difficult circumstance with understanding and compassion.

Perhaps you should question how you are creating conflict such that you are only seeing that side of the Garda which enforces the law. Sitting in the middle of the street and refusing to move doesn't allow a Garda much room to mediate.

mazzyianne

Originally posted by MDR



I will paint the picture i illuded to a little clearer shall I, they came to Ireland specifically to cause trouble, a desproportionate number of english young people where arrested that day, none of them where Irish Residents. Long way to come for a street party ?

Reclaim the Streets is relatively new to Ireland and has been around for years in England. Until May 6th, when Irish people heard the name RTS they thought - what?
When English people heard it they thought - PARTY!!!

That could explain it for ya

[/B][/QUOTE] How do you allow everyone who wants to protest the absolute freedom to do so (and there are alot of groups who protest) without fear of censorship or oppression, but still ensure that Mrs Brennan in No 24 gets home from the shops in time for fair city. [/B]

I wish I knew....
I dont think blocking the streets helps most protests, against fees or war or pay or whatever. But If it's a 'protest' against cars, it makes sense.
I wish there was a better way, something that would effect the people/govt/company it should be directed at and not random people, scapegoats, like the police or the guy that works in the Top Oil station or whoever has to take all the **** for the people at the top.
Its really difficult to get your message to the right people, they're well hidden.

Mighty_Mouse

As for arranging things with the gardai, I dont believe this should be done. I mean protests are always pre arranged with the gardai, we turn up we are hoarded up and down streets, given a nice safe zone in which to release any anger, let off steam or whatever.

Come on. This is absolute tripe. How can somebody actually write this, read it back, and post it!!!!

So, what your proposing is that a 1000 people (at least) should be permitted to release their anger, in whatever street they like.

So, as opposed to a "safe zone" to release your anger ............ would ye like a dangerous zone ! Maby if we gave ye o'connel street at 5'o clock to let of yer built up steam, and release yer anger. I mean it would only be fair!!!

Can I just say that I sympatise and agree with many of the ideals behind the FTS protest, but any protest must recognise the rights of non-protesting people to about their daily business.

And therefore should be organised in consultation with the Gardai.

kitty-kat

QUOTE: Who said anything about asking? Tell them where it will be, when it will be, estimated size, what the organisers consider to be acceptable behaviour by attendees and what is not (thus giving the police a mandate to interfere quickly should things get begin to get out of hand).

I understand where you’re coming from but the fact is it is not simply a case of sending them a letter and a smile or going into the office and saying “well lads, this is what we’re doing, whether you like it or not” (now that’s discourteous!). It is not an authoritarian gathering so other than non-violent I have no more mandate to decide what is acceptable behaviour for others than I do when I walk home from work. I tend to rely on what is acceptable in social terms (though hrm.. not always;-) )

It is no secret as to what date the next RTS will be held on. As a result, the police will have their manpower lined up, as well as all the riot kit and what have you, and will be just sitting on a knife-edge so that as soon as they hear where the event is they can get there as quickly as possible.

Of course, by knowing where the event will be, they can manage the disturbance caused...unless of course part of the idea of RTS is to show how giving the streets back to the public will cause disturbances, rather than give us our "freedom" back.

No. I am not part of a counter-insurgency movement. (damn they got me)
quote:
QUOTE: But they are not needed (please read previous posts)
First of all, that is not your decision to make.
I’m not being a smart arse, it’s been a bloody long day & I can’t recall what this is referring to and it’s a looong thread.

QUOTE: Secondly, having read previous posts, I noticed this about the first RTS :
This turnout was unprecedented and, largely and unfortunately, unprepared for.
Right...so the police are not wanted or needed, even when the organisers screw things up? OK.

Hey, hold on a minute. Who said screw up? There was no concrete end plan, because previously the “end plan” was cops wading in. The numbers, as I said, were totally without precedent so no-one thought hmmm…what will we do with these 100’s of people…because we didn’t expect them. That’s not to say it was a screw up – far from it. the organisers of the party quickly realised the crowd would have to be moved to a safe (official) public space to disperse. First st. stephen’s green was suggested but we figured it was closed by then, the best & nearest alternative was civic offices, wood quay, to which we endeavoured to get swiftly and safely it was indeed the Gard’s intervention which endangered those present

QUOTE: You ask us to ignore this first one, and I ask why? It was an RTS. It was orgnised as such. Now what have you put in place to prevent this happening again, bearing in mind that you claim its spontaneous because there is (and I quote) "no-one telling anyone what to do".

I’m not sure I asked anyone to ignore the first one, I just find a disappointingly low effort made to look at the merits of the September RTS and how people learned from the events of May. There was no liasing with the cops til the end when one guy was asked to go up and say, righteeoo it’s been a great day we’re going back to stephen’s green, ciao. Quite simply, there was an end plan and a gig to send folks afterwards.
QUOTE: Events outside the control of the organisers screwed it up for everyone.
Precisely.

QUOTE: To be quite honest, I'm still trying to interepret the message RTS says its trying to send,
Fair ‘nuff.

QUOTE: and the message that is being received by the people.

How will you do that? Who are “the people”? I’d love to know because I’m finding it exceptionally difficult other than in places like this list and social events.

QUOTE: When I get through that, I'll start thinking about the actual overall goal and what I'd do differently.

Perhaps circumvent all that and sit down and just think what’s wrong with this place? What ought to change? How can that change? There may be a lot of conclusions we have in common, & some new ones would be great! I just happen to find the RTS perspective a pretty reasonable logical one.

QUOTE: I've always presumed that the RTS peops wanted increased/enhanced pedestrian areas, and gretaer public transport (who doesn't) but they've never really said.

Would any member care to clarify and quantify what they want, and how it could be achioieved, at what cost, and who'll pay. Surely these issues have been addressed.

Without wishing to appear rude, I have actually stated my case (or at least the guts of it) in previous posts. There is no membership, it is a non-hierarchical structure, various people (many of whom disagree on many issues) simply contribute whatever talents, skills and knack they have to make a good day out for as broad a group/age range as possible (it’s not just dance music – far from it), so given that I can only really speak for myself (which, as far as I am concerned, is as much as any of us should) have a glance back (I know, I waffle) and e mail me directly if you want or post questions for general perusal.

Look forward to it.
GoodnightXXX

Borzoi

Originally posted by kitty-kat
QUOTE: I've always presumed that the RTS peops wanted increased/enhanced pedestrian areas, and gretaer public transport (who doesn't) but they've never really said.

Would any member care to clarify and quantify what they want, and how it could be achioieved, at what cost, and who'll pay. Surely these issues have been addressed.

Without wishing to appear rude, I have actually stated my case (or at least the guts of it) in previous posts. .

.

In all fairness, and I have gone to the truouble of rereading your posts, you seen to have a number of aims towards 'addressing the car culture' etc. You've made no concrete proposals about what you DO want, and how to achieve it.

I want details. So far I have none.

Regds

kitty-kat

QUOTE: ah ... on reading back I mis-understood, I assumed you where asserting that all protests which liased with the Garda, where demoralised events etc, apparentily its only the ones organised by the SWP ...

No. they’re just ESPECIALLY good at it. credit where it’s due.

QUOTE: every other protest group etc does, why are you special ?

Because that is the fundamental point of Reclaim the Streets. The streets are for the people! they should not have to ask permission to congregate

QUOTE: would you classify sitting in the middle of Dame street and refusing to move ... 'little disruption'.
So you weren’t there then. As I said we were pushed on to Dame St. the crowd was split and people panicked, justifiably because a riot van was driving through the crowd and cops were cracking heads of people sitting on the ground. Nobody refused to move they either did very bloody fast…or couldn’t.

quote:

---

Shouldn’t they be out catching crims or something?

---

The name 'An Garda Schíochána' translate as 'guardians of the peace',

Yeah, I am just resorting to that crap gutter humour y'know, "get a job, you crusty" "go catch some real criminals, you thug."
Despite my obviously very inarticulate manner, please believe i think dehumanising people like that does a disservice to everyone concerned and that was not what i was trying to do before.

QUOTE: there was something like 18 people arrested, 5 or 6 of them where from the uk I think.

Actually there were 24 people arrested. I’ll report back about the nationalities mañana.

QUOTE: you aren't at the second step yet, you are still having trouble with the first respecting them bit, don't get ahead of yourself.

I find that remark pretty unfair, particularly if it is aimed at me personally because i don't think i have been dissrespectful at all since i joined.

QUOTE: I’ve been in small and very large groups where no one person or group was responsible – because we all were. And you know what? nobody killed anyone, stole, wantonly destroyed things or hurt anybody

---

QUOTE: Probably in a group of people who choose to be there, to say that the Garda or indeed any police force is not required is equally as foolish as saying that we must live in facist police state for our protection.

Don’t the people at the party choose to be there?

QUOTE: Garda are entitled to make resonable requests to enforce law, if you break the law you will be arrested. A Garda isn't really supposed to think of the grander plan, the rights and wrongs as, he job is to enforce the law.

Woh, I thought it was to protect the peace? so they are not required to think in terms of right and wrong, interesting.
no. scary.

QUOTE: Take for instance the woman who vandalised the plan in Shannon, the Garda had to arrest her for vandalism and tresspassing, but its up to the courts to decide if she was justified in this action not the Garda.

I don’t agree here, evidently Nuremberg doesn’t mean much, but we are in danger of reeeeeeeeeally drifting if I get started.

Similarily a bunch of people sit down in Kildare Street and block the throughfair, they are asked to move and they refuse, the Garda is left with no alternative but to inforce the law (well as he sees it). There is no malice on his or her party, I can assure you he/she would be much happy at home with their feet up.

Yes the overtime is a real burden on their pockets as I’m regularly reminded by several Gardaí. Look, I’m not here to villify or vindicate every Gard in the country. That’s bloody adolescent. I am criticising the APPARTATUS which gives one person disproportionate power to dominate another human being. What sickens me is this acceptance of the crap we are fed that we’d never be able to resolve anything unless some bloke or sheila who does have the power to cart you away in a big van doesn’t show up. Then we’ll respect each other. God forbid the dude in the viz vest won’t get here to point the cars down the street because nobody else has the “authority” to say “there’s something going on down there and cars won’t get through; that road’s clear that way”. It’s not flippin rocket science.

[/B][/QUOTE] How do you allow everyone who wants to protest the absolute freedom to do so (and there are alot of groups who protest) without fear of censorship or oppression, but still ensure that Mrs Brennan in No 24 gets home from the shops in time for fair city. [/B]

Well for one thing a more egalitarian society might mean um.. fewer protests.
I think Mrs. Brennan could do with some of that be less selfish mantra rts-ers get, and make provision. But maybe I’m just being cranky coz I’ve been raking my brain for the last 9 hours.

Really. Goodnight

kitty-kat

QUOTE: In all fairness, and I have gone to the truouble of rereading your posts, you seen to have a number of aims towards 'addressing the car culture' etc. You've made no concrete proposals about what you DO want, and how to achieve it.
I want details. So far I have none.

I want Carfree cities, I want an egalitarian society. VALUES have to change first. I want people to wake up and realise how powerful and beautiful and intelligent we are all capable of being, I want everyone to live in a Sustainable and low impact way, I want world peace. I’d like bigger tits but we can’t have it all.

What do you want? Seriously, I don’t have the solutions, I don’t pretend to, it would be grossly arrogant for me to come along and say well, dear residents of the entire city of Dublin (and visiting English thugs) I have the answers to your problems. Because I don’t know what they necessarily are. The time now is for individuals, groups, communities to figure out solutions, and I want to be a part of it, because I believe everyone should be a part of it. NOT just a bunch of “experts” and politicians and business investors. That’s not problem solving, that’s enterprise creating. Organisation at a Grassroots level. The people of an area thrashing it out, brainstorming, exchanging knowledge and personal experience – because their vested interest is their own quality of life and the lives of their loved ones.

You want a instant remedy. There is none.

DadaKopf

As usual, this thread is beginning to become an argument about Garda conduct and the right to protest.

I don't know why, but the critics of RTS here always seem to frame it this way. It's like a kneejerk attempt to delegimise the event so they don't have to bother understanding any of it, let alone find out that some of these 'crusties'' ideas might have something to them. It's a very Irish reaction.

Always with these threads (and there's been something like 3 or 4 RTS threads on here over the last year), people just don't want to listen. Half the argument on this thread is fuelled by people not understanding each other or simply not wanting to. Read people's posts properly before barging in.

For a good background, the other thread is more informative than this one. And the link posted by honkdub at the beginning: http://rts.gn.apc.org/evol.htm.

Then maybe we could get a discussion going instead of beating out clichés.

TacT

1) I don't drive
2) I cycle

3) It's not up to me to decide what others want to do, much less get a huge group of people together to tell other people what they should do or how they should travel and neither should you, via protest or a treehugging hippyfest as has been proposed or any other means. (sorry if that offends you but that's what last years crowd looked like to me and anyone else with a bit of grey matter between the old cauliflower bits

4) This is nothing but an excuse for a party and a bit of attention from everything I've read.

5) I know a lot of crusty students/unemployed people/respectable people that went to rts last year but the entire crowd smells mostly of hippy and that's not gonna get anything done for you due to the image and what you call "atmosphere" that was created at the last one and may possibly happen again this year.

6) You don't really seem to have a definite Goal here with any kind of plan for time or anything else.

7) Cars piss me off and I piss them off, it's unintentional. It doesn't give either party the right to demand the other be taken off the road anywhere and it's certainly nothing to "have a party" over.

8) If you want to be taken seriously maybe you might want to try and create a crowd that people won't instantly find offensive or dirty etc ESPECIALLY with regards to the police, remember, people like them too and they're an inevitable part of society so I suggest you learn to live with them and possibly even at some stage, respect them as they do you.

9) You have no right to disturb people going about their business and it just makes you look selfish and stubborn - ps - the big bongs and smell of hash/weed in the air does nothing for your cause either I might add, unless your looking to legalise cannabis..

10) I'm finding the whole thing very amusing but I won't be going along because I don't support your idea's/ideals. Maybe you should form a cult or something, you'd probably have more success Or lobby for the legalisation of cannabis, I dunno, get some realistic goals damnit, cus your not gonna get cars off the roads, it's pretty simple, but I must repeat what others have said, the roads were made for our cars. I know it's a tough concept but it works quite well despite the congestion :rolleyes:

How do you expect to be taken seriously?


Down with that sort of thing Tm

/me looks around, yup [/endrant]

mazzyianne

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Come on. This is absolute tripe. How can somebody actually write this, read it back, and post it!!!!

So, what your proposing is that a 1000 people (at least) should be permitted to release their anger, in whatever street they like.

So, as opposed to a "safe zone" to release your anger ............ would ye like a dangerous zone ! Maby if we gave ye o'connel street at 5'o clock to let of yer built up steam, and release yer anger. I mean it would only be fair!!!

Can I just say that I sympatise and agree with many of the ideals behind the FTS protest, but any protest must recognise the rights of non-protesting people to about their daily business.

And therefore should be organised in consultation with the Gardai.

We're obviously coming at this from very diferent perspectives.
I really dont even know where to start to explain.

I wasnt suggesting that everone be allowed run riot. Read the rest of my post, you took it completely out of context. I was trying to explain my reasoning behind why protests get violent.
I was trying to explain how frustrating it is to protest in the usual way. Ive been interested in various issues for years, mainly anti-war stuff but other things too. One day you just realise that protesting doesnt make any difference.
Your being allowed to protest because thats the law. So they give you a time and space to vent your anger and make your point without getting any point across to the people who can change the problem. You turn up, shout a bit and go home feeling better (supposedly) and think, well Ive done my bit' when infact you have done nothing.

I wasnt implying that people should be allowed to rampage throught the streets. Im saying that our anger is misdirected - it is up to the protesters to find new ways to get a point across. To direct the message towards the people who have the power.

In future please read my comments before you reply to them and I wont have to repeat myself. And dont put words in my mouth - 'so what you're proposing' etc.
Thanks

bonkey

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Come on. This is absolute tripe. How can somebody actually write this, read it back, and post it!!!!

Did you report the post? No

Are you a moderator? No

Does our charter tell you that everyone has a right to hold and express an opinion - ill informed or not - regardless of whether or not you agree with them? Yes it does.

Next time, stow your righteous indignation and try a bit of common politeness instead, or reporting the post if you have a real problem with it.

The same goes for all of you. Might_Mouse is not the only person stepping close to the edge here.

Isnt it ironic that I have to get engaged in repeat moderating in a single RTS thread for what could be termed "minor disturbances" ....where it would appear to be the opponents of RTS who are getting moderated, and the RTS people who get cast as having no respect for the rules or the rights of others.

jc

Borzoi

Originally posted by kitty-kat

I want Carfree cities, I want an egalitarian society. VALUES have to change first. I want people to wake up and realise how powerful and beautiful and intelligent we are all capable of being, I want everyone to live in a Sustainable and low impact way, I want world peace. I’d like bigger tits but we can’t have it all.

Okay, my own opinion is that a carfree city is impossibe, longterm. However would you be willing to settle for a carfree day, once per month, say last Sunday of every month between noon and 6pm. See how it worked and then extend on reduce it as required.

TBH unless you start putting some concrete proposals forward, and stop trying to change the world in a single act you'll just lose credibility.

I'd like smaller tits, but then, I'm a bloke

kitty-kat

BORZOI: Okay, my own opinion is that a carfree city is impossibe, longterm.

KK:Then please take a look at Carfree.com. You would be amazed. It never ceases to amaze me how willing as a species we are to congratulate ourselves on how sophisticated we’ve become – we haven’t even got the basics right! The technology to achieve these things is there, it comes back simply to a misappropriation of interest & funds. Up until 100 years ago all cities were car free! and they didn’t have the knowledge and tools we do.

BORZOI: However would you be willing to settle for a carfree day, once per month, say last Sunday of every month between noon and 6pm. See how it worked and then extend on reduce it as required.

KK:Hell yes. In fact after the first Car free day in Bogotá, the people of the city had something similar to a referendum and opted for 2 per year (the entire city is completely car free, with the exception of taxis), with a view to extending it eventually.

BORZOI: TBH unless you start putting some concrete proposals forward, and stop trying to change the world in a single act you'll just lose credibility.

KK: Christ! I didn’t know I had any! Totally. Street Parties, in fact any street protest is only effective insofar as it is a forum, to inform people, to share personal experience, to encourage the growth of the movement, to highlight problems to a wider audience. I don’t suppose anyone in Dublin needs the congestion pointed out to them – to me RTS is not just about transport though, it is a resistance to the commodification of each of us. Public space is dominated with advertising – billboards, bustops/stations, train stations, bin, telephone booths, inside every train & bus, the back of toilet doors in pubs… the list goes on.

Streets used to be where entire communities grew up – you don’t talk about the house you’re from, you talk about the street you live on, right? Kids are ever more limited to just find a place to play; just one example of how isolated we are becoming from the people around us by our increasingly indoor lifestyle.
Proposals are being put forward, each individual is responsible for cutting their own car use for a start.
For the immediate future investment in bike lanes; not the painted strips of bus lanes we have now, which can be parked or driven over, but the real McCoy, as in Rio, Germany, Holland etc. separate lanes. These would be a helluva lot cheaper than a Luas or Metro line and would go very far to encouraging those that do live within cycling distance of work/college/school to take up cycling as a viable means of transport. Most times of the day cycling is actually the fastest way to get around the inner city, it is always the most healthy option for everyone.

Proper pedestrian crossings – has anyone ever noticed how many busy junctions have no crossings, or just one with five streets intersecting?

Higher density human scale planning is hugely important. If all the shops and basic commodities communities needed were nearby fewer people would use the car.

TACT: 3) It's not up to me to decide what others want to do, much less get a huge group of people together to tell other people what they should do or how they should travel and neither should you

KK: I think it is fair enough to ask people to desist from engaging in activity which is economically, culturally and sociologically devastating, causes tremendous ecological harm both here and throughout the world. Is having consuming vast tracts of our countryside and depends upon a fuel which is the motivation for brutality all over the world.

via protest or a treehugging hippyfest as has been proposed or any other means. (sorry if that offends you but that's what last years crowd looked like to me and anyone else with a bit of grey matter between the old cauliflower bits

This kind of generalising does nothing to support your argument – you do all concerned a disservice, of course none more than yourself.

TACT: due to the image and what you call "atmosphere" that was created at the last one and may possibly happen again this year.

I truly hope the atmosphere that was created at the last one, in September, definitely happens again. It was a roaring success, great music, painting for kids, games, free food, street theatre, no arrests and no violence.

TACT: 8) If you want to be taken seriously maybe you might want to try and create a crowd that people won't instantly find offensive or dirty etc
And… 5) I know a lot of crusty students/unemployed people/respectable people that went to rts last year but the entire crowd smells mostly of hippy and that's not gonna get anything done for you

Yes we have commissioned a marketing exec to make sure we get the right look this time, man.

TACT: the roads were made for our cars.
No ****? They had cars back when the streets & roads were being built. Wow. That’s right, because Dublin’s only been around for what, about 1,000 years. Hmmm.

TACT: I know it's a tough concept but it works quite well despite the congestion

So you figure spending 3 hours each way in the car acceptable for a single mother of two, do you?

bonkey

Originally posted by kitty-kat
No ****? They had cars back when the streets & roads were being built. Wow. That’s right, because Dublin’s only been around for what, about 1,000 years. Hmmm.

In fairness, thats a specious argument. Not only is there a vast conceptual difference between a city today and a city of 1000 years ago, there has also been a drastic shift in the nature of travel, work, etc. as well.

You keep saying that Dublin even 100 years ago didnt have cars. Fair enough. Implement the solutions they did have then, and you will find a massive set of problems.

Here's a good example. I live in Switzerland. By and large, it has very few traffic problems (except on the motorways during ski-season). I live 30-ish km from work, and have between a 45 and 60 minute commute - regardless of if I go in the car with my GF, or by train. It is possible to do this in a country the size of Switzerland, because most major cities are relatively small - there isnt a single one which is over 1,000,000 people, and there tends to be a relative proclivity for apartments. As a result cities are far more compact, and can be easily serviced by a fixed-route transport system, coupled with pedestrianisation etc.

Interestingly, over here, while there arent many pedestrian areas, there are entire areas of most large towns where the pedestrian has right of way, and it is the driver's problem to crawl through avoiding the pedestrians, rather than the more common inverse. This includes almost the entire city-centre of Bern - incidentally a "world heritage" location. The cars dont cause a problem. As a general rule, there are more trams/busses than cars, and they are far less likely to stop for pedestrians. Its not perfect, but it works.

It is also worth noting that Swiss have a tendancy to live close to their work. Most people consider a travel-time of over 20 minutes to be unacceptable. (I am clearly mad, living in one town and working in another.) This is helped by the lack of a home-owning culture - people are more inclined to move closer to their work.

Apply a similar model to Dublin, and you have a problem. The residential areas are spread over massive areas, due to the proliferacy of houses. The sheer logistics of running a comprehensive bus-service over such well-spread-out areas is crazy. Not just that, but because of the spread-out nature of the entire city (and the more common Irish inclination to choose where you wish to live, rather than choosing where to live based on where you work, the house-owning mentality in Ireland, a numerous other factors, it quickly becomes apparent that there will always remain a significant number of the population for whom "conventional" public transport - no matter how well organised - will simply not be good enough.

This, for me, is a core problem. How do you tell someone that taking 3 or 4 buses, having to be exposed to the elements to make the connections, and so on is preferable to them to owning and driving a car? I can't see how to sell it. To make it work would need an entire perception shift of how we live our lives...not just about the streets.

Anyway....you talk about making the streets "car-free".
Is this the ultimate aim of RTS, a step along the way, or just a happy side-effect of achieving the ultimate goal of giving the streets back to the public? Whats the big deal about cars? Is it the size? The noise? The pollution? Why not stop short of "cars must go", and instead encourage options simply to reduce the problems. Surely, it is easier to sell incremental ideas (and admit to an overall plan) rather than shout out that we support Goal X, we want it achieved, and we offer no concrete steps as to how to get there.

For example - you want to cut out cars. Why not just look at starting to reduce the problems caused by cars - noise, pollution, and congestion.

the Swatch-Mercedes SMART is a massive success here in its country of origin. Over 100km to the liter in optimal conditions. Small. Quiet. Oh - and incredibly performant if you want it to be.

Over here, car-parks have smaller spaces exclusively for SMARTS, which are closer to the lifts, and which cost less.

It may not be a "car-free" world, but surely there is no reason for ultra-compact cars like this not be given incentives by the government to make them more attractive? It makes more space on the roads, more space in the car-parks, less noise, and less pollution. Its a great "interim solution", and I can only see two reasons why it shouldnt work :

1) Too many people want to own big cars. One of my mates, when planning a holiday recently for himself and his wife was talking about hiring a Mondeo-sized car for the two of them. His reasoning - its nice to have some space in the car. Where was he driving? The highlands of Scotland.

I class the urban-jeep drivers in the same category - people wanting to own big inefficient cars for some baseless reason.

2) The government will never offer incentives while there is only one serious car in that class. Maybe when BMW and others release their "SMART-challengers" in the next couple of years, we'll see a change.

Now, I admit that this does not solve the problem, but it does offer an avenue to realistically limit and cut-back on the problems we face today. There is no "chicken and egg" here. Supporting SMART cars and anything else of that ilk when they arrive is not a "lose to ultimately win". Its win-win. It cuts your noise, it cuts your pollution, and it cuts your congestion....if it is taken up by the public.

Just like the ESB told us to use lagging jackets, and offered us incentives to use night-time electricity, dont you think the government itself should do the same for ultra-compact low-emission cars?

And going back to the whole "what is RTS about" - I still have problems with it. Who are you reclaiming the streets from? You want them for the public - but you are reclaiming them from the public as well - just a section of the public that you choose not to be part of.

jc

TacT

I think bonkey's said what needs to be said. I might add, what part of society do you feel you currently belong to, because judging from your posts and talk of the whole thing and your attitude towards the gardai and the event you sound like a bit of an outcast or that the worlds out to get us or something, I can't put my finger on it.

The whole thing just doesn't feel right to me and the idea's don't sit right with me. I just don't see where your going with it all.
Surely there's a better way to achieve what you want without the need for a party in the streets.

Good luck with it, oh and about the atmosphere at the last one, I'm sure the burning car got attention, but I don't see any achievements you've gained for your cause after last year and I don't see what you intend to gain this year.

It's up to people to make their choices about how they get to work and back. I know people that drive 2hrs to and from work everyday and although their not mother's, they have families. You getting cars out of the city centre would be a wonderful thing, although, you do realise that you will have added to some people's daily travel needs because they can't take the car into town!

I'm also quite sure that the number of people that want cars out of town is nothing compared to the numbers that want their cars in town. It's already bad enough when you go shopping say, then have to walk 15/30 mins to the car with loads of bags, and possibly the kids hanging out of your arms. Do you think your doing these people any favours?

Surely you know that what you do to help some people will in turn have another affect on others daily lives. Please consider this.

As I said in my first post I cycle. Sometime last year when I got a cab to the airport when going on holidays. I was greeted on dame street by a huge crowd of cyclists in protest, preventing me from getting where I need to go. This is why you won't find me at any of these cycle protests because it doesn't help the situation and it's certainly not convincing others when you just get in the way of them going about their business.

With regards your last comment about spending 3hrs a day travelling - everyone makes sacrifices at some stage in their lives.

DadaKopf

Bonkey: basically what you're saying is that Swiss people have had good planning and development initiatives for decades. Ireland hasn't. This has been for a great many reasons including self-interested politicians and basic urgency ranging back to the 1950s.

Anyway, for those eager for some alternatives, here's a select summary of the Dublin City Council Strategy 2012 I dit up for the RTS people (note how many RTS ideas overlap it):

Summary of relevant points from Dublin City Council (DCC) Strategy
2012

Chapter 4: An integrated city

R.A.P.I.D.: Revitalising Areas Through Planning, Investment and
Development.

Strategy is to streamline and integrate differing approaches to
Dublin City. Plan is to avoid "clienteleism"; avoid fragmented
functional approaches of each instrument; focus on holism,
integration, sustainability.

"An integrated response is a holistic response that transcends
traditional organisational boundaries and divisional lines."

Strategy: (1) transfer senior management in the state sector to a
public sector management agency, rotate managers between agencies to
increase knowledge base and cooperation; (2) aimed at increasing
participation and accountability (joined up thinking).

Whole strategy overseen by the Dublin City Development Board.


Chapter 7: A Greener City

Urban environment/ecology in strategy takes into account: air and
water (drink and swim in), sounds, urban spaces (buildings we see,
spaces we use and design), wildlife, energy, waste,
architecture/archaeology.

Ireland has signed up to the Gothenburg Protocol, the EU Habitats
Directive and the Kyoto Protocol (overall domestic energy consumption
accounts for 30% of carbon emissions).

750 green public spaces in Dublin. DCC's Waste Management Division
collects 200,000 tonnes from 150,000 homes and 15,000 businesses p.a.
(Waste Management Plan, 1998).

Strategy: (1) Environmental considerations to be incorporated into
corporate and public planning; (2) Awareness campaign to commence
highlight problems and solutions; (3) Green Dublin Initiative that
recognises collective responsibility and action; (4) Involve
individuals, agencies, businesses and insititutions in public
decision-making, delivery and monitoring; (5)total access to
environmental services; (6) energy needs should be met while relying
more on renewable energy; (7) collective waste management,
attitudinal change, re-use, reduction, litter management.


Chapter 8: A moving and accessible city

Emphasis on integrated "modes of transport" which are safe,
accessible, environmentally sustainable, maximises sustainable social
and economic development.

S2012's aim is to tackle people's reliance on cars and turning people
towards other modes of transport: - Department of Transport spending
€17bn capital spending on infrastructure (5.5bn already earmarked for
National Development Plan);
- Infrastructure includes Luas, Metro, improvements to DART, suburban
rail, Port Tunnel, implementation of "Walk and Ride" strategy/campaign

Their analysis of Dublin's problem and solution: urban sprawl, bad
urban planning and lack of development regulation have caused over-
reliance on private vehicles. The plan is to enable more localised,
self-sustained communities ("spheres of life") by
encouraging /planning "high-density mixed-use development" and a re-
patterning of land-use; "Strategic Land-Use and Transport Authority"
to be established. Adopting findings of the Westminster Transport
Studies group, DCC and S2012 clearly accepts importance of sustained
awareness campaign.

S2012 also emphasises the responsibility of individuals to alter
their lifestyle ("collective responsibility"). This will, in part, be
achieved by an awareness/education campaign – "Sustainable Transport
Initiative", and through tangible results through the provision of
adequate services.

Overall strategy is focused on Quality of Life – social, economic,
environmental, health.

MDR

URL for the complete document please ?