[Article]US signals action against France

bug

US signal's action against France-BBC world on-line

Just thought the above article may interest you. Although Powell didn't expand much on what this action would be, do you think it could possible come in the form of trade sanctions or such like? Things such as research equipment, chemicals, IT equipment? Will Microsoft not be answering french customer care queries.
I really don't understand how they could get away with taking ANY action whatsoever on France. Any opinions on what boards posters think the US administration may be planning on this front?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by bug
Just thought the above article may interest you. Although Powell didn't expand much on what this action would be, do you think it could possible come in the form of trade sanctions or such like? Things such as research equipment, chemicals, IT equipment? Will Microsoft not be answering french customer care queries.
I really don't understand how they could get away with taking ANY action whatsoever on France. Any opinions on what boards posters think the US administration may be planning on this front?

The US is perfectly entitled, under international law, to take unilateral diplomatic and economic action against any country that it feels does not conform to its wishes. Any nation is. What it is not entitled to do, under international law, is to take unilateral military action - but that’s another argument.

The only reason that this may invoke concern is down to the US’s dominant position in the World - Were Canada, Britain or Japan to say the same thing, no one would notice much.

As for what is likely to happen:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2969329.stm

bug

cheers corinthian missed that


.....crazy though isn't it.. france makes a democratic decision within the UN and then may get penalised for it..

France is also seen as opposing US influence in the world from a philosophical and cultural standpoint.

Well thank God.

BattleBoar

My guess is that it isn't anything punative, as you are correct, this would not be allowed by the WTO. However, I believe that the most likely situation is an strategy to bring Australia, Poland, and Britain into the US's free trade zone as part of a more sustained attempt to devalue the Euro-economy. However, seeing as Tony Blair is pro-Euro, it seems odd. Then again, if a GBP is worth 2 Euro, you'd probably find a lot more people in the UK willing to go with the Euro.

bonkey

From the Corinthian's link :

French support for the young United States in its fight for independence against Britain (French naval power was important in defeating the old French enemy) does not guarantee them special favours in Washington.

I love that classically British understated subtlety

Anyway....

Yes, the US is most likely to try and punish France diplomatically. It will allow its media and hence its populace to pick up on this anti-French sentiment, hopefully (from the US' pov) causing economic impacts as well.

What is interesting is that the effective message that this is re-inforcing is "agree with us or suffer" - which is hardly the best image for a nation who is trying to sell freedom to the world.

Any American-initiated "consequences" will be interesting to watch unfold, though - especially as the EU reunites in terms of deciding how to deal with post-war Iraq.

jc

PHB

In the end this is all just a distraction for the election and I hope that the americans will become aware of the economic situation just as they did with his father.

pencil

I have just heard the news on Newstalk 106.

The US is a big girls blouse & is getting closer & closer to Fascist ideals by the day.


There is only one way to respond to this!

We (girlfriend & I) have been avoiding, as much as possible, American produce in the supermarket since the build up of the war.

My next car will definitely be a Peugeot or Citron (sp).
My next computer will be a Siemens.
Californian wine is out - French is in.
MacDonald's et al - well we never eat that sh!t anyway.
etc. etc. etc.

therecklessone

Originally posted by pencil

Californian wine is out - French is in.

Expensive choice...there's dedication.:D

vorbis

what did you want them to do? Hug the french for trying to humiliate the Americans on the world stage. I see nothing unusual in punishing a so called ally for adopting an aggressive stance against you.

Wook

Originally posted by vorbis
what did you want them to do? Hug the French for trying to humiliate the Americans on the world stage. I see nothing unusual in punishing a so called ally for adopting an aggressive stance against you.

I know I shouldn't be saying this , and the mod can even Ban for a two weeks but 'VORBIS' your such an idiot !

(ok small edit)

Americans, made a fool of themselves and most likely continue to do so. The way they handle things is just too much of a Gung Poo style.

I see nothing unusual in punishing a so called ally for adopting an aggressive stance against you
what aggressive stance should this be ? enlighten us , please do...
Voicing an opinion and not be intimidated by bully technique is an aggressive stance or would that be ..'you go along with us or we cut your Aid package ? ' as I have said before ...you must be with those 80% Americans who don't have a clue...

bonkey

No, just a one week ban.

jc

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

gandalf

Nope I think you'll find bonkey is serious !
Personal abuse is a big no no !!

Back on topic like pencil I am now making a effort to replace any US made or branded purchases with alternatives if they are available.

I think the arrogant attitude coming from the US is doing untold damage to International relations and their actions far from making the world a safer place have guaranteed that the world is now more dangerous and less stable.

Gandalf.

bonkey

<offtopic>
Dead serious....I dont see why I shouldnt ban someone for calling someone else an idiot. Same ban I handed out to others recently who knew beforehand (as Wook clearly did) that their actions were stepping over the line.

You think I shouldnt ban them just because they know they're gonna break the rules before they post? (That makes it premeditated...which most legal systems would consider more serious, not less so.) Personally, I think I'm being quite lenient. You're free to differ.

</offtopic>

<sortof_ontopic>
I'm doing nothing against the US right now, becuase quite frankly I dont really buy that much which is american in the first place where there are viable alternatives.

Living in the heart of Europe tends to have that effect

As an interesting question....for the people who say they're going for French instead of Californian wine now :

Would you drink Spanish wine? They were part of the "Coalition of the Drilling", but are now firmly behind post-war stuff being UN handled.

<sortof_ontopic>

jc

colinsky

Originally posted by The Corinthian
The US is perfectly entitled, under international law, to take unilateral diplomatic and economic action against any country that it feels does not conform to its wishes. Any nation is.

Not as a signee/memeber of the World Trade Organization, it isn't. WTO members are specifically banned from any trade policies, tarrifs, or limits which specifically target an individual country.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by colinsky
Not as a signee/memeber of the World Trade Organization, it isn't. WTO members are specifically banned from any trade policies, tarrifs, or limits which specifically target an individual country.

Fair 'nuf. Just unilateral diplomatic action then.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by bug
.....crazy though isn't it.. france makes a democratic decision within the UN and then may get penalised for it..

Regardless of what you think about the US, I don't see how this can be defined as "penalised". This isn't a comparable to, say, a UN sanction. The US are fully entitled to choose to act agressively (economically) towards who they like. Any country is entitled to do so. Ireland and the UK were doing the same to each other during the 1930s - and everybody lost out.

I do find it ironic that the "victim" of this potential US action is the very country that, for years, has been at the forefront of holding back the spread of US products: France. The shoe could now be on the other foot.

bonkey

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Regardless of what you think about the US, I don't see how this can be defined as "penalised".

Why not?

France pissed off the US. The US now say there will be consequences. We assume they mean punitive ones.

Exactly how is the US not penalising France if it takes any form of retribution? I mean, the series of events is :

1) Action
2) Punishment for having taken said action.

jc

BattleBoar

I agree with Bonkey on this one, of course this is a punative action. It will be interesting to see what they do. Of course the US has a right do do what it wants with regard to economic policies and how it relates to other nations, but it will be difficult to justify any type of sanction or import tariff without being reprimanded by the WTO.

DadaKopf

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Regardless of what you think about the US, I don't see how this can be defined as "penalised". This isn't a comparable to, say, a UN sanction. The US are fully entitled to choose to act agressively (economically) towards who they like. Any country is entitled to do so. Ireland and the UK were doing the same to each other during the 1930s - and everybody lost out.

I do find it ironic that the "victim" of this potential US action is the very country that, for years, has been at the forefront of holding back the spread of US products: France. The shoe could now be on the other foot.

Can someone tell me just how insulated America is against all this? If the US decides to take punitive action against France (and presumably Germany), how is that action going to affect the US economy? If it invokes retaliatory measures by the European sparring partners, how vunlerable is the US?

It's my impression that there's a huge irony in America global supremacy. The further they expand, the more they depend on cooperation from other countries (their politicians and their markets). While this makes the US very powerful, it also makes the US very vulnerable. However, it doesn't make the US vulnerable in an absolute sense (America's army is the most powerful in the world and she almost controls the WTO). It could make America extremely vulnerable because it'd cause market uncertainty, affect people's job security and hit people's pockets and that's political suicide.

Or maybe that's the intent. Treat 'en mean, keep 'em keen. Americans would just have someone else to blame.

Éomer of Rohan

Having read both of those articles I am seriously disturbed at the way this is heading; if the US feels so free to imply consequences for the exercise of a sovereign right by another nation against US interests, just how long will it be until these consequences become economic sanctions or military action? The later article stated that economic sanctions were unlikely since France was a member of the EU and the US naturally does not want to provoke a confrontation on this front with the economy ready to recede but how long until the US feels that the time is right to split the EU into pieces by destroying the currency or going after EU markets? I for one feel a twinge of cold fear when it is looked at like that, especially given the instability of international politics over which such a tete a tete might arise.

BattleBoar

My strong suspicion is that a strategy to highly depreciate the Euro and destabalize the European economy is already in development, Éomer. A successful, prolonged effort to greatly weaken the european economy will allow the US to much more easily fragment the power of the EU in the future, keeping it from becoming a strong, unified, economic front. Keep in mind the contributing members of the war in Iraq: Poland, UK, and Australia.

Of course, there will be collateral damage among countries that supported the US, ie. Spain, Italy, and perhaps this will prevent such a broad-based strategy.

However, I suggest reading this article, In Round 2, it’s the dollar vs. euro: U.S. will make Europeans pay for failing to back war on Iraq

It suggests the plans are already in motion...

Éomer of Rohan

But Bush isn’t going to rush to ask him — let alone the European Union or the United Nations — to join us in the back booth of post-Saddam Iraq

To join us?! This article smell to high heaven of propagandist crap to be honest with you. It may well be that America is looking to clash with the EU but I reckon that Britain, eventually will back the EU.

Given that most of us here agree that Europe seems to be shaping up to be the next US target (economically), surely the US must now be regarded as a foe to the peoples of the European Union?

vorbis

a foe is a bit harsh since it provides us with quite a few jobs. On the overall topic though, I think people are being slightly delusional. France excersising its soverign right to an individual opinion doesn't make it exempt to the consequences of that decision. Diplomatically France is supposed to be a US ally. Instead it chose to make political capital out of the war. The same applies to Germany. Indeed Schroeder rode a wave of anti-Americanism to get re-elected. I see nothing strange in the US seeking to punish France for attempting to publically humiliate them. If a co-worker tried to ridicule you in front of the boss at work, you'd hardly be happy about it.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by vorbis
Diplomatically France is supposed to be a US ally.

Well... technically no, it's not.

Captain Trips

That MSNBC/ProGovernmentNetworkNews article was interesting because most of the time they would ignore or try not bring to the US publics attention the dependence on imports.

Everyone's had a say since the "end" of the war, except OPEC have been suspiciously quiet. OPEC members agreed to sell only in dollars since 1973 I think. That changed with Iraq, and it's the first time such a *major* news site/corp took the story.

What I find even more interesting is that it is geared at a very base level to instil pride in the US reader "And we'll pay in dollars", i.e., the almighty buck.

So, if the theory goes, if the dollar continues to weaken against the euro, it means the US is losing control because dollars are not being kept for oil trade. The report that Saddam had 300 million dollars in cash was absolutely astonishing regarding this line of thought.

So
(i) US active propaganda, re: pride, dollar, ruler of the world, etc., nothing new there but quite new to be so direct
(ii) Dollar continues to weaken against Euro - US is losing grip on oil sales
(iii) That continues, US has every reason econmically to reduce increasingly costly EU imports, but says publically "This is because you went against us", whereas in reality it's because they *do* import 48% of general goods, etc., and 60% energy. They are very dependent on imports and won't be able to afford them. Now it's time to save face in the other markets that matter and are less impressive globally to the EU, i.e., NAFTA, etc., . Argentina alreayd went belly-up. Is the US worried that other trade countries may get edgy and that they need to maintain the image of the world leader?
(iv) The EU continues to enlarge economically and peacefully (*cough* Yugoslavia *cough*), generally speaking. The US cannot enlarge to the size of the where the EU will be in, basically, next year and 5, 10, 20 years.
(v) The US doesn't have a choice really - it's *only* response can be to instil authority on the weaker countries because in reality the EU will continue to enlarge and become the largest economy by far. Currently the EU/US are almost level, with the US slightly ahead in terms of GDP, etc., .

colinsky

I still suspect that the overall effect will be more diplomatic name-calling and some prominent invitation snubs, but nothing beyond that. Powell doesn't have any authority to endorse non-diplomatic (economic, etc.) policy, and while he may have some personal vendetta against France, most politicians don't.

Trebor

as far as i can see they will do nothing themselves economically, ie the government, but the way they are talking is firing up the public into not buying the imports, so in that way they are cutting down on imports.
They aren't saying to the public buy british wine and chesse, they are saying buy american wine and chesse.
i belive it's a plot to boost the home grown industries that have been lossing out to imports thus helping keep jobs etc, etc

ZeFrog

"what did you want them to do? Hug the french for trying to humiliate the Americans on the world stage. I see nothing unusual in punishing a so called ally for adopting an aggressive stance against you."

I m so fed up with the use of : 'so called ally' wording.


France is working closely with USA to fight terrorism, therefore helping USA protecting itself. Isn t it the definition of an ally ?

What did USA did when Paris metro was bombed in 1995 except refusing to extradite GIA terrorist members to France ??

We also could have called USA a 'so called ally' when they protected Klaus Barbie "the butcher of Lyon" by giving him a fake identity and sending him away from French justice.

Etc ...

I think those new expressions: so called ally, French sissies, freedom fries, French cowards etc are all just a direct result of the actual government communication policy + american conservatives( silly patriotics ) sheep attitude.

I mean I saw red necks over there burning French flags they don t even know where France is on a map and they ll tell us that we should bend over and kiss their *** because of WW2.


:mad:


btw : I am not anti american , I actually have family living in Boston!

Sand

A successful, prolonged effort to greatly weaken the european economy will allow the US to much more easily fragment the power of the EU in the future, keeping it from becoming a strong, unified, economic front.

I dont think it has to weaken the euro economy to be honest, fundamentally the US is economically stronger and better able to react to economic woes and take advantage of growth. Right now the US economy is in a downtrun and the euro strenthening is just a natural reaction to its( US economy) weakness than the EU strenths as a lot of the foreign investors which helped power the boom look for better investments.

Europe places a greater priority on social programs and other money traps - whilst theyre trying to do a balancing act of making the EU the most competitive place to do bussiness whilst also having loads of redistribution to set the world to rights- or lefts - theyll have to be damn good to have both.

surely the US must now be regarded as a foe to the peoples of the European Union?

Only in the circles where it has always been seen as the great satan i think. By the way would it terribly offend you if I was to use the above as a signiature - the one im using right now has made its point and im on the hunt for a new one.

I think people are being slightly delusional. France excersising its soverign right to an individual opinion doesn't make it exempt to the consequences of that decision. Diplomatically France is supposed to be a US ally. Instead it chose to make political capital out of the war. The same applies to Germany. Indeed Schroeder rode a wave of anti-Americanism to get re-elected. I see nothing strange in the US seeking to punish France for attempting to publically humiliate them.

Completely agree. France made its decisions, the US most certainly will react to them - it can hardly view France in a better light over the extremely bitter fracas over the past few months.

It reminds me of an article i read in the Irish Times over the mobs getting upset over Bertie keeping Shannon open for the US- the article dealt with the fact that there actually *are* consequences to foreign policy decisions - that if you go against someone they will hold it against you and vice versa.

France is working closely with USA to fight terrorism, therefore helping USA protecting itself. Isn t it the definition of an ally ?

France also did its best to undermine and derail the coalitions liberation of Iraq - to the point where it became clear the allies were wasting their time even talking to them anymore as they said they would veto any resolution allowing the overthrow of Saddam. Thats not the definition of an ally. France cant have it both ways - it cant act completely against the US and then claim to be their bestest buddies.

Its not like bush has announced theyre dropping the 101st on Paris with orders to shoot everything that moves. All thats going to happen is that France is going to get the cold shoulder and isnt going to get a christmas card for a whole long time. That and there seems to be a lot a semi-official boycotts and petty name calling.

daveirl

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