Tareq Aziz in US hands....

mike65

Just announced in the last hour or so -

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=ES3KXUSAUDVAQCRBAE0CFEY?type=topNews&storyID=2625972

Not that he'll know anything of course!

Mike.

dathi1

fiddlesticks

Originally posted by dathi1
fiddlesticks

I hope you are joking?
I notice in all the profiles of him this morning that he is a Christian
Whatever about where true Islamic beliefs are on the subject, I'm wondering how on Earth, he reconciled his Christianity with what his Regime were up to.
( that question applies where relevant to all others in power anywhere too in case I'm asked )
mm

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Man
Whatever about where true Islamic beliefs are on the subject, I'm wondering how on Earth, he reconciled his Christianity with what his Regime were up to.

What exactly are you implying by that, just out of interest?

Trebor

considering what christian did in the middle ages maybe he is old school christian

cujimmy

Whatever about where true Islamic beliefs are on the subject, I'm wondering how on Earth, he reconciled his Christianity with what his Regime were up to.

This "war" started because a "christian" (GW Bush) was listening to too many fundamentalist christians who appear to be running the White House

Trebor

Originally posted by cujimmy
This "war" started because a "christian" (GW Bush) was listening to too many fundamentalist christians who appear to be running the White House

i don't believe he was refering to the war but to how a christian would be able to justify years of torture and abuse to the iraqi people, where as the war was justifed as being the lesser of two evils, IMHO

Originally posted by Trebor
i don't believe he was refering to the war but to how a christian would be able to justify years of torture and abuse to the iraqi people, where as the war was justifed as being the lesser of two evils, IMHO

Yes thats what i was alluding to.
mm

Hobart

I don't think his religon has anything whatsoever to do with it. There have been tyrants of many denominations throughout history. Tariq Aziz being a christian has as much relevance as Saddam Hussien being a muslim. Remember Hitler was a christian and it did'nt stop him being responsible for the holocaust. Justification does not come into it.

bonkey

Originally posted by Trebor
how a christian would be able to justify years of torture and abuse to the iraqi people

Well, I would imagine in exactly the same way that christians - and members of most other religions - manage to commit continuing acts of atrocity throughout history.

It generally boils down to "nominal religious belief" being misconstrued as "actual belief", or religious fervour being used to justify whatever you want (e.g. the Crusades), or even just people simply not caring what their religion says. How many catholics here believe in the concept of no sex outside marriage? No artificial contraception? Fast and Abstinence on Good Friday and Ash Wednesday???

How many of you have just thought "that doesnt apply to me because I'm no longer catholic...I'm atheist/agnostic/somethingelse" ???

How many of you who thought that have actually gone to the trouble of officially removing yourself from the church? If you havent, your'e still as Christian as the Pope.


If you want to understand how a christian could justify these horrific things, just ask how a christian can justify ignoring his or her religion at all. After that, its simply a matter of degree.

jc
jc

Trebor

Originally posted by Hobart
I don't think his religon has anything whatsoever to do with it. There have been tyrants of many denominations throughout history. Tariq Aziz being a christian has as much relevance as Saddam Hussien being a muslim. Remember Hitler was a christian and it did'nt stop him being responsible for the holocaust. Justification does not come into it.

i know, i myself am an atheist (spelling?) and believe that religion is used too often as an excuse to be a bigot or racist but i was just clearing up what i saw as a misunderstanding.

sanvean

Originally posted by Trebor
how a christian would be able to justify years of torture and abuse to the iraqi people,

probably in the same way a muslim or a Jew or a hindu would excuse similar acts and attrocities. it's all about interpretation. all the monotheistic religions have certain tracts which can be used to justify whatever attrocity you want.

Trebor

Originally posted by bonkey

How many of you have just thought "that doesnt apply to me because I'm no longer catholic...I'm atheist/agnostic/somethingelse" ???

How many of you who thought that have actually gone to the trouble of officially removing yourself from the church? If you havent, your'e still as Christian as the Pope.

the fact that in the church's eyes i may be a catholic but i was not given any choice to be baptised, comunised, confirmised, and i didn't know that i have to have the chuch recognise that i am an atheist ( also din't know that you could get it done )

what the church believes about me is not my concern as to me they have no meaning.

Hobart

How many of you who thought that have actually gone to the trouble of officially removing yourself from the church? If you havent, your'e still as Christian as the Pope.

I know you are coining a phrase. But are you sure about that?? I don't believe that you have to offically 'remove' yourself from the christian church in order to be considered an atheist. Would be surprised if you did.

SkepticOne

A lot of the news reports are saying that he did not have any real power. However, being at the centre of the regime for so long, he will have accumulated a huge amount of information which will come in very handy in rounding up the remainder of the hated regime.

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by Man
I notice in all the profiles of him this morning that he is a Christian
Whatever about where true Islamic beliefs are on the subject, I'm wondering how on Earth, he reconciled his Christianity with what his Regime were up to.
( that question applies where relevant to all others in power anywhere too in case I'm asked )
mm

Showing your ignorance of the islamic faith here if you think it would be easier for muslims to reconcile their behaviour against their religion.

And besides as others here have said, some of the most brutal acts of history were carried out in the name of christianity. We christians have no rght to consider ourselves any more moral than everyone else !!

bonkey

Originally posted by Hobart
I know you are coining a phrase. But are you sure about that?? I don't believe that you have to offically 'remove' yourself from the christian church in order to be considered an atheist. Would be surprised if you did.

I'm working from memory of a previous discussion on boards...probably in Humanities. I seem to recall someone posting that they had actually gone and done this. Maybe it wasnt there...maybe it was a mate of mine. I'll ask him and see if I can find out.

Basically, the line as I recall it is that the Catholic Church will still consider you a member, regardless of what your personal beliefs are until you formally request exit from the church or are excommunicated.

You are technically still a catholic, and therefore still a Christian. It is - I believe - where the description "lapsed Catholic" originated from.

From what I've seen and heard of other religions, they all seem to work in a similar manner. IIRC, some dont even offer an opt-out clause.

Regardless, though, I think its fair to say that his religious beliefs were clearly not deeply seated at best, and as such his religion doesnt/shouldnt really be a factor at all (as you pointed out).

jc

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by bonkey


Regardless, though, I think its fair to say that his religious beliefs were clearly not deeply seated at best, and as such his religion doesnt/shouldnt really be a factor at all (as you pointed out).

jc

So . .. would you apply the same logic and make the same analysis of George Bush.. .

bonkey

Well, this thread is about Aziz, not Bush, so I'm not going into that, but the short answer is yes I would apply the same criteria, and no I wouldnt come to the same conclusions.

jc

Corben Dallas

Good !they are getting thru their hit list of playing cards for the worlds top villians.
Tariq Asis was poss the best know (After Saddam) in the west and had been in best Western Countries as Iraqis public face

---

Is it true that 'Comical Ali' was the joker in the playing card list? is there a list of the cards anywhere on the net?

Hobart

I have heard that the Queen of Hearts has been caught and Aziz was the 8 of spades (I think). I think that there are 56 on the US 'hit list'. Does an actual deck of cards exist, with pictures etc...,or is it just use of terminology??

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Hobart
I have heard that the Queen of Hearts has been caught and Aziz was the 8 of spades (I think). I think that there are 56 on the US 'hit list'. Does an actual deck of cards exist, with pictures etc...,or is it just use of terminology??

Apparently so, although I remember hearing that only about 200 packs were made. This was on a news report about packs being available on ebay. The military denied this claiming that only a small number were produced.

Of course, the idea of producing a pack of cards rather than, say, a booklet for distribution is pure PR brilliance. It provides a focal point for the media and helps dehumanise those they seek.

Originally posted by Hobart
I have heard that the Queen of Hearts has been caught and Aziz was the 8 of spades (I think). I think that there are 56 on the US 'hit list'. Does an actual deck of cards exist, with pictures etc...,or is it just use of terminology??

yes a deck of cards does exist with 56 names and pictures and has been made available , to coalition forces in Iraq.
It was first shown at one of the Quatar news conferences, by that U.S African American General ( brooks I think ) whose name escapes me.

This prompts me to ask who they picked as the joker in the pack??
mm

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Corben Dallas
Is it true that 'Comical Ali' was the joker in the playing card list? is there a list of the cards anywhere on the net?

He was not on the list. I hope he turns up, if only for the entertainment value.

Here's the pack from the US DOD's website.

http://defenselink.mil/news/Apr2003/030411-D-6570C-002.pdf

As you can see, they put boring info about arab surnames and iraqi military ranks on the jokers.

bonkey

Originally posted by Man
This prompts me to ask who they picked as the joker in the pack??

This was, I believe one of the first questions asked. It was (IIRC) a Sky News reporter who managed to get it in. Got a chuckle from most people there.

The look on the general's face as he fielded the answer was very much a "D'OH - why didn't we think of that one".

jc