Travel Agency new website

manonthemoon

Hi,

I am hoping to provide a new website for a travel agent. This is no problem.

However, they now wish to have system where everyone in the office can see which enquiries have been dealt with and by who.
Their computers are networked but they must not use a package to handle their enquiries at present

From what i gather they do not require their this on-line (on website).

However, in the future they may wish to. I would like to install some system on their network, which in the future could be easily put online if/ when they wish to publish their availability on-line in the future. What is the best way of approaching this?

Thanks

Seth Brundle

What do you mean that they can't use a package to handle enquiries? What system have they in place? I assume that there is some kind of database.
You could set up an intranet which connects to their database and contains the info on who modified which order or else just create a form which is part of the DB and they can view it there.

buddy

If its internal - sounds like a MS Access database could be used - this could potentially be put online - but then again if the database becomes quite large in the future you'll want a proper sql type database arrangement.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by manonthemoon
What is the best way of approaching this?

Hand over that part of development (sub-contract or go in on a joint pitch) to a firm or consultants who have the necessary technical skills and concentrate on the Web design.

TBH, if you try to develop an application you don't have the required skills for, you'll at the very least give others in the industry a bad name, be refused payment or even get sued by your client.

Seth Brundle

Originally posted by buddy
If its internal - sounds like a MS Access database could be used - this could potentially be put online - but then again if the database becomes quite large in the future you'll want a proper sql type database arrangement.

the likes of a travel agent would already have some kind of database system (custom built?) which would enable them to remain in contact with airlines etc. Messing with this could prove dangerous if you are not sure what you are doing.
What they want, would possibly need to be integrated with this system and if so follow the advice of The Corinthian.
If they just want you to develop a 'stand alone' MS access DB with a table / form showing enquiry details and who dealt with it then you are flying (assuming you know access).

RicardoSmith

I don't think he is talking about hooking into the airline reservations systems do you? : ) I think they are looking for a system to manage the queries recieved from customers over the phone, email and fax. I thing they are looking for a system where you can enter all these queries into a system, and then assign each query to the various people in the office. The system then should be able to track the status of each query and who is working on it and list any other details relevent to the query etc.

If I was doing something like this I'd avoid access and jump straight to using MySQL. Its free and easy to use. Using anything else you will have licencing issues and cost issues. You could either write an intranet system using VB/VBscript/PHP and it would be easy then to pull data from this system into a web facing front end at a later data. By doing it this way you will also learn some valuable skills yourself that you'll need doing future sites. If you need any help with it drop us an email or a PM.

tomED

Seems like a straight forward job - just build a online db to collect the info - any web developer would have no problem discussing the options and it shouldnt cost a fortune! If it costs more tha €1000 yer being robbed....

The Corinthian

Originally posted by tomED
Seems like a straight forward job - just build a online db to collect the info - any web developer would have no problem discussing the options and it shouldnt cost a fortune! If it costs more tha €1000 yer being robbed....

Right. Sure. Hope your professional indemnity insurance is up to date too :rolleyes:

The application would appear to be intranet/extranet based CRM system and would, to begin with, have a fairly complex database structure, requiring fairly careful data modelling on the part of the database developer.

The nature of the client is also open to debate; while the simplest way of doing this may be HTML based, the client may prefer a thicker client (far more efficient for ongoing user entry) developed using Java, VB or even C++.

Finally, you would require to future proof the application so that it can be put on the Web and possibly even handle transactions in the future (this in particular will affect how the database is designed).

Add to this the necessary project documentation and workshops to pin down requirements, and I doubt if a grand will get them very far (it’ll get you a day, maybe two of someone decent’s time).

Of course, you could always slap together a half-arsed Web-based system with a simple database and charge them a couple of hundred yo-yos, then call yourself a Web Developer...

tomED

If you look at the intial requirement...

"they now wish to have system where everyone in the office can see which enquiries have been dealt with and by who.
Their computers are networked but they must not use a package to handle their enquiries at present"

This is a very straight forward application to build either for an intranet or as an extranet.

See this is my problem with the IT industry in Ireland.

Everyone tries to over complicate things. They have a simple requirement and obviuosly they want something cost effective.

But the way you are talking is making it out that they need some high end application to handle all this... But thats simply not true.

Too many people that don't know much about computers are being put off because of people like you telling them they need this and they need that, when if you go back to pure basics you will see that they dont rewuire something as high end as you say they do.

How are they doing business without any system at the moment? If they are running successfully already, why do they need some big application to come and do something they are already doing without one?

It's not exactly going to streamline their work process if they have to go and skill everyone up in a new application is it?

It happened guiness a couple of years ago when they tried to install SAP in their offices. First off the staff rebelled and demanded more pay for having to use the sytem, then they had to skill the staff up on how to use it.

Same with the gardai.. cant remeber what that is called!

Basically my point is - they are working without a system at the moment. If they want something to help streamline their work process they don't have to go and pay out for a large application. You can get a basic web based application that will cost them little or nothing and will not be complicated to use....

Webmonkey

Whats a 1000 euro these days? Nothing at all. I wouldn't bother my arse for that money. If you want a good proper site you pay for it and don't get a cheapo to build it for you because in the future you will be running into great problems.

./Webmonkey

tomED

depends on who you go with and what you are lookin for.

€500 is the average daily rate for web developers in ireland... I have just left one of the countries leading companies to set up on my own and that was their daily rate - as I was in charge of operations I know I would have got my staff to turn something over in 2 days, but this company would have charged for at least a weeks work...

Again my point is - the client should discuss with someone what their true requirements are - its easy for us to fight all day over this but the reality is... we don't know what they need. We are just guessing

am i right?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by tomED
If you look at the intial requirement...

Yes, however we’re also told that “However, in the future they may wish to” - already hinting that the client may well be looking at a much longer term, phased development. So while this could be rolled out as a simple enough application (cheap and nasty is the phrase that comes to mind), in theory, if you don’t approach it correctly, it’ll have to be scrapped and rebuilt in the future. So it’s not as straightforward as you would lead us to believe.

Everyone tries to over complicate things. They have a simple requirement and obviuosly they want something cost effective.

Cost effective would be more of something that will work, and won’t have to be scrapped after six months because it ultimately didn’t deliver of client expectations.

What you’re talking about is something cheap, not cost effective.

But the way you are talking is making it out that they need some high end application to handle all this... But thats simply not true.

It’s not particularly high end, but it would be beyond the skill set of a lot of Web development (more correctly Web design) firms out there.

Too many people that don't know much about computers are being put off because of people like you telling them they need this and they need that, when if you go back to pure basics you will see that they dont rewuire something as high end as you say they do.

Not as many as those who are being put off by being sold a bunch of free scripts, that don’t do the job that they’re looking for, by one of the numerous two-bit cowboy outfits out there, after being convinced by them that they know what they’re doing.

It's not exactly going to streamline their work process if they have to go and skill everyone up in a new application is it?

That’s irrelevant. If properly developed, such an application would not require that the end user is skilled up. The only complexity I’ve suggested is purely backend, and invisible to the end user.

In fact, I suggested the possibility of a thick client, which would probably be much more user friendly that a thin, Web-based one (and certainly support faster data input), and hence require less familiarization and experience on the part of the user.

Basically my point is - they are working without a system at the moment. If they want something to help streamline their work process they don't have to go and pay out for a large application. You can get a basic web based application that will cost them little or nothing and will not be complicated to use....

I’m not suggesting a large application - just a competently developed one. Otherwise you’re leading the client down the road of a false economy.

tomED

I do agree with a lot of your points however not all of them And im so new to the boards that I don't know how to do yer quoty things, so please forgive me...


This one:
Otherwise you’re leading the client down the road of a false economy.

My reply to that would be that you are too!


This one:
That’s irrelevant. If properly developed, such an application would not require that the end user is skilled up. The only complexity I’ve suggested is purely backend, and invisible to the end user.

My reply: Of course there will be skilling up required. Even if it was basic application they would need skilling up.

At the end of the day - all us developers would love people to use the best possible technology avaiable to a client, but that doesnt mean its needed.

I have numerous clients that spend thousands every year on applications like the ones you are suggesting. And they fall into the 80/20 bracket which is they use only 20% of what the application can do and they dont even know about the other 80%.

so again all im sayin is - if they don't need it why tell them they do. If the system works for them it wont be out of date in 6 months. If you develop something without really consulting with the client and just giving what we think is best, they are not getting value for money. Am i making sense or am i sayin this arse ways?

Kai

Going by what the guy said it looks like a simple enough task, all he needs to do is implement a DB and have say the code for each order, name and date of when it was dealt with.

Originally posted by manonthemoon

However, they now wish to have system where everyone in the office can see which enquiries have been dealt with and by who.
Their computers are networked but they must not use a package to handle their enquiries at present

From what i gather they do not require their this on-line (on website).

In all fairness i think your over complicating the issue without all the facts there corinthian.

Originally posted by the corinthian
The application would appear to be intranet/extranet based CRM system and would, to begin with, have a fairly complex database structure, requiring fairly careful data modelling on the part of the database developer.

The nature of the client is also open to debate; while the simplest way of doing this may be HTML based, the client may prefer a thicker client (far more efficient for ongoing user entry) developed using Java, VB or even C++.

Finally, you would require to future proof the application so that it can be put on the Web and possibly even handle transactions in the future (this in particular will affect how the database is designed).

It is possible all of these will be required but unlikely. its more than likely gona be an intranet DB with that people can update as each job is taken on.
To be honest i think the guys post was taken and run all over the place, if i had posted the question i wouldnt bother replying cos it would take 3 pages to sort out the conclusions people have leaped to.

RicardoSmith

I think all you need is a simple db system and a simple web based front end. The front end could be used in the office as an intranet and hooked up to the website at a later date. Its not really rocket science. In a small office it will be fast enough and its simple technology to use developer and expand on later. Theres no reason to do it in something like Java or C++. It would complete overkill. VB/VBScript/PHP is more than sufficient. You could use Ms Access or MySQL either.

Second guessing future requirements is a bit silly at this stage. If the DB structure is kept simple and resonably open, and the front end is also written half decently adding to it at a later stage shouldn't be a problem.

500 a day for a Web Developer? I obviously live in a parallel universe. Most contract rates I've heard of these day range from 150-250 per day for all kinds of development roles. But if you can get 500 then wow. But surely it would price you out of the market for smaller jobs like this one? My experience of late that nearly everyone knows someone, relation, friend or friend of a friend who can do this work for peanuts. So they rarely pay big money for this kinda stuff.

Manonthemoon - one thing I'd be careful to do would be to get some sort of formal understanding down on paper. This should put down the clients expectations of the initial development work, and the their expectations of any maintance work, or changes to the original specification that you will be required to do. Aloow have some definate deliverables dates etc. Its easy for the client to have unrealistic expectations of how much of your time their money buys.

Kai

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
I think all you need is a simple db system and a simple web based front end. The front end could be used in the office as an intranet and hooked up to the website at a later date. Its not really rocket science. In a small office it will be fast enough and its simple technology to use developer and expand on later. Theres no reason to do it in something like Java or C++. It would complete overkill. VB/VBScript/PHP is more than sufficient. You could use Ms Access or MySQL either.

I would agree with you here ricardo.
id basicaly get a good idea from them and see what they are looking for.
Also if your not too sure about connecting a DB to a web front end then there are loads off tutorials on the net and plenty of books on the subject. a little research into what they want will tell you quick enough if youll be able to do it or if its best left to someone else. From what you said i think it is entirely achievable with a simple DB/ web front end approach.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Frugu
In all fairness i think your over complicating the issue without all the facts there corinthian.

But this is my point, that while one could slap together an intranet/extranet application as you suggested and not worry about using it for bookings or connecting it to the Web, I’d point you to where manonthemoon says “in the future they may wish to”. While we (here) don’t know what these requirements are, we can say that unless you end up spending a great deal more time setting up the architecture that will support future development, then your cheap and nasty solution will end up being scrapped and rewritten in six months time.

As for the suggestion that even the Web based application, would cost no more than €1,000 - development, design, licences (where applicable), documentation, etc. - the less said about that the better.

RicardoSmith

What would you do if that was the budget?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Second guessing future requirements is a bit silly at this stage.

Future proofing applications is an essential feature of good application design.

My experience of late that nearly everyone knows someone, relation, friend or friend of a friend who can do this work for peanuts.

Well, if you pay peanuts, we both know what you get...

Originally posted by Frugu
From what you said i think it is entirely achievable with a simple DB/ web front end approach.

The database would not be simple. Think about users, bookings, rates, currencies, flights, hotels, dates and date ranges (and that’s just off the top of my head). Now think about a structure that is can be extended easily in the future.

Now, your business logic: How modular? Can it, again, be extended in the future without having to replicate code? Is it user friendly enough? What security are you going to use?

Experience has regrettably taught me that a simple DB/Web front end approach is more often than not a euphemism for cheap and nasty.

Client gets their application, works fine in the short term, then bugs begin to appear because it was built on the back of a free tutorial and the developer doesn’t actually understand what they’re doing in any great detail. Eventually the client will ask that changes be introduced, only to hear that large portions of the application (if not the whole thing) have to be rewritten. Client gets pissed off, dumps the whole thing and doesn’t touch another IT firm for the next five years. The End.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
What would you do if that was the budget?

Not touch the client. TBH, you'll tend to find that they're the type who will try to avoid paying you or take 120 days credit as well.

[edit]Actually, explain what's involved and the options. And if they're still looking for a cheap and nasty solution, not touch them.[/edit]

Kai

Originally posted by The Corinthian

The database would not be simple. Think about users, bookings, rates, currencies, flights, hotels, dates and date ranges (and that’s just off the top of my head). Now think about a structure that is can be extended easily in the future.

Corinthian i would agree with you entirely if manonthemoon had said the system is to be used to monitor and record the entire business actions, but that isnt what he said.
However, they now wish to have system where everyone in the office can see which enquiries have been dealt with and by who.

Thast what he said, reading it appears they want each rep working to have an idea which orders are being actioned and by whom, from what he typed it doesnt have to include users, bookings, rates, currencies, flights, hotels, dates and date ranges, as these would be stored in the main system.

I could be entirely wrong but as i said before its silly to jump to conclusions until we get more information on it, it could turn out to be something very simple and we have just put him off because we threw buzz words at him and over complicated matters.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Not touch the client. TBH, you'll tend to find that they're the type who will try to avoid paying you or take 120 days credit as well.

[edit]Actually, explain what's involved and the options. And if they're still looking for a cheap and nasty solution, not touch them.[/edit]

For many smaller web developers/companies its exactly these kinda clients that are their bread and butter. It can certainly be a challenge working for them and you need to have your wits about you, and know what makes financial sense and what doesn't.

That said every one wants software that is future proof. But sometimes its faster and cheaper to write a few disposable quick and dirty solutions. Using something like vb/msaccess. Rather than one all compassing one in Java/MSSQL etc. Its no good having a 10k app that will be better in the long term but will take 6 months. If you need a app now and only have 1k to do the work in. Also if they don't have the funds, you can't magic it out of them!

RicardoSmith

A good rule of thumb I find for dealing with these kinda jobs is...

1) Do they have the money/funding in place for the project and what is it? 2) Do they have people/someone assigned to manage the project?

If they do then thay can pay some money up front and it ensures they are committed to the project. If they don't then they are not fully committed to the project. As they have no money down they can play around with you and they generally will as they know you will be keen to do what ever it takes to get the money from them. Money up front/deposit is a sign of good faith.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
For many smaller web developers/companies its exactly these kinda clients that are their bread and butter. It can certainly be a challenge working for them and you need to have your wits about you, and know what makes financial sense and what doesn't.

No one wants to turn down a contract, but lowball quotes that result in cheap and nasty solutions that will turn around and bite your client in the ass don’t help this industry or the small firms that give them.

That said every one wants software that is future proof. But sometimes its faster and cheaper to write a few disposable quick and dirty solutions. Using something like vb/msaccess. Rather than one all compassing one in Java/MSSQL etc. Its no good having a 10k app that will be better in the long term but will take 6 months. If you need a app now and only have 1k to do the work in. Also if they don't have the funds, you can't magic it out of them!

If a client needs something up and running quickly, then that’s a special requirement and has nothing to do with what we’re discussing here, which is a cheap, rather than quick, solution. It’s no good having a 1k app now that will be need to be replaced in 6 months with the 10k app (although, there is a case to be made for prototyping).

And if they don’t have the funds, then I’m sorry - Life’s a bitch, and then you die.

Car manufacturers should not build quick and dirty cars. Builders should not build quick and dirty houses, especially if they’ve never actually built a house before. Developers should not build quick and dirty applications - even when the application is not necessarily critical. Neither should a developer offer to build an application when they plainly don’t know what they’re doing. It’s called ethical professionalism.

RicardoSmith

Sorry but theres definately a place for cheap and cheerful solutions. They don't have to be "nasty". Thats just software snobbery. Generally quick often equates to cheap since taking a long time to do anything is generally cheaper than spending a long time to do the same thing. The Corinthian you come across like saleman up selling a product. The software industry is plagued with it.

http://www.lawnandlandscape.com/news/news.asp?ID=1273
http://www.drnunley.com/ARTCL70.htm

Spunj

I would agree with Ricardo that in a case like this it is probably more efficient to build a system for 1k that could be upgraded once a year for 1k than build one for 10k, not knowing their future requirements. If they don't know them than they are at best going to guess them for you, unless you are going to instigate a really expensive feasability study, etc.

So for 5 years you might charge 1-2 k in maintenance rather than 10k upfront then possibly 10k more in 2-3 years time, because you don't do piecemeal jobs. A customer like that isnt going to take that risk of being held for some possible future ransom of 10's of thousands. Yeah they will have bells, whistles, reliability, scalability and every other software buzzword, but chances are technology will have moved on anyways.

This job isn't a big budget development process so theres no point trying to shoehorn it into a normal framework. They want something cheap, they have a right to get it, as long as they are aware of the pitfalls. Whats a grand buy you these days? Sod all, but if they get a small system that ups productivity by 10% for a year or 2 and more than pays for itself before they have to replace it, then they really haven't lost much have they? At worst they are at square one with a much better idea of what they really want, having spent a year or two finding out by doing.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Spunj
as long as they are aware of the pitfalls

Absolutely, problem is, however, that most clients are not informed of these pitfalls, because the developers doing this work for them will not have the experience to recognise them.

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Sorry but theres definately a place for cheap and cheerful solutions. They don't have to be "nasty". Thats just software snobbery. Generally quick often equates to cheap since taking a long time to do anything is generally cheaper than spending a long time to do the same thing. The Corinthian you come across like saleman up selling a product. The software industry is plagued with it.

I may have suggested a few extra features (my suggesting that a fat client has confused the issue) that may be required, but I’m hardly trying to up-sell anything Ricardo. My main argument has been related to using a professional approach when developing any application, and the so-called professionals in the industry who are clueless and drag the rest of us down as a result.

And using a professional approach would not include:

• Selling a cheap and nasty solution, because you can’t do the full application.
• Telling a client that you’re a professional, then basing all your work for them on free scripts and tutorials you snarfed off the Web.
• Not bothering to use any methodology or process when developing and/or not knowing any methodology or process - this might include something as, frankly, simple as a project specifications document.
• Having a practical knowledge of the industry you claim to be part of.

Up-selling is a problem in this industry, but so are the snake oil salesmen who go round doing cheap and nasty solutions that don’t work because they don’t have a breeze of what they’re doing. Then the rest of us have to pick up the pieces and re-educate the client, to explain to them that we’re not all cowboys.

RicardoSmith

Doing it quicky, using "low tech" does not have to mean "unprofessional". Theres lot of people who spend millions on solutions and still deliver a crock at the end of it. Cowboys exist at all levels. At the end of the day if you deliver a soution that works well for the client, on time and on budget, then thats a job well done.