DSL finally available to eircom ISDN subscribers?

zz03

In the eircom broadband availability map there is a "Coolock ISDN e10" switch listed in north Dublin - which presumably refers to an Alcatel E10B switch in that area, dedicated to ISDN. i.e. ISDN subscribers on that switch can subscribe to DSL. (Most Alcatel switches serve rural areas in Ireland).

Are eircom's problems providing DSL to ISDN subscribers limited to those served by Ericsson AXEs? If so, when are Ericsson / eircom going to get the finger out with a view to providing DSL to the unfortunate majority in urban areas who are served by AXE switches, and who happen to use ISDN?

Or should Ireland axe the AXE? Which platform seems to be locked in the era of the queue up, where are your papers, "so you want to APPLY FOR a phone" you crummy citizen, state controlled, PTT. "You will have to wait".

(Backgrounder/aside: Zed is pissed off with the SonyEricsson's warranty - new phone costing over €600, fell 31cm from low level coffee table to floor. Switch fails. Zed hops on the bus down to his local SonyEricsson repair place: "Oh no we won't repair that" (under warranty or even if you are prepared to pay), and we won't repair/replace the badly designed charger connector (which we admit is crap and get lots of repair business from) because Zed dropped his phone (nothing to do with aforementioned drop of course) and we won't upgrade the defective software which SE irresponsibly released with v1 kit (as we normally would do during the warranty period) because zed's warranty expired the moment his phone dropped from the coffee table).

Are you happy with your (sony)ericsson kit?

Are you happy with the way that ISDN subscribers who want DSL have been treated in Ireland?

Zed’s got his second new phone within a few months. Needless to say it’s not a (sony)ericsson.

Ericsson was a good company until it was taken over by short termists whose focus is on their option agreement and its exercise date.

It is not time Ireland had an alternative switching equipment supplier to Ericsson? Someone with a longer time horizon?

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SkepticOne

First thing we need to establish is whether Eircom are trying to supply DSL over ISDN lines before we try reading stuff into this broadband availability map.

Then we need to find independent evidence on the compatibilty of DSL over ISDN with certain types of exchanges.

Then it might be worth discussing whether switching equipment needs to be replaced.

zz03

Originally posted by SkepticOne
First thing we need to establish is whether Eircom are trying to supply DSL over ISDN lines before we try reading stuff into this broadband availability map.

Why would they be listing an ISDN switch on their DSL availability "map" otherwise?

Then we need to find independent evidence on the compatibilty of DSL over ISDN with certain types of exchanges.

DSL over ISDN is not a problem in other countries and it is a requirement that you have ISDN before you can get DSL on the Deutsche Telekom network. Large scale DSL deployment in a non-ISDN compatible platform can cause crosstalk problems for the network as a whole. Engineering-wise DSL comes from the same stable as ISDN. PSTN comes from a different planet.

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flamegrill

AFAIK there are no plans to provide ADSL over ISDN in Ireland for the foreseeable future. Instead they will downgrade your ISDN to a PSTN on the day of the install and connect you to ADSL exchange side. This has been available since the 11th of april.

Paul

zz03

Originally posted by flamegrill
AFAIK there are no plans to provide ADSL over ISDN in Ireland for the foreseeable future.

At the expense of repeating oneself...! - "Why would they be listing an ISDN switch on their DSL availability "map" otherwise?"

Why should people have to dump their 2 channel ISDN connection? Better service for the customer and more money for eircom. A single channel is inadequate for most households - even with DSL.

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flamegrill

Originally posted by zz03
At the expense of repeating oneself...! - "Why would they be listing an ISDN switch on their DSL availability "map" otherwise?"

Why should people have to dump their 2 channel ISDN connection? Better service for the customer and more money for eircom. A single channel is inadequate for most households - even with DSL.

zz..

They list it there because people on that switch/exchange regardless of their connectivity currently can get ADSL. ISDN is an old technology. IMO people got ISDN for one reason, to have internet and have their main phone line free. With the advent of ADSL you can have this without the line rental and the extra cost.

Paul

SkepticOne

Originally posted by zz03
Why should people have to dump their 2 channel ISDN connection? Better service for the customer and more money for eircom. A single channel is inadequate for most households - even with DSL.

As flamegrill says, most households and many businesses got ISDN for internet access. When they get DSL, ISDN suddenly becomes obsolete and given the choice they will opt for DSL over POTS.

Some companies may need ISDN for other reasons. If they also want DSL then they get to pay Eircom extra. Eircom wins by not allowing DSL over ISDN.

shinzon

if you do a test for adsl over isdn youll get an incompatible product on the line result

you have to downgrade your isdn line to pstn before you can get broadband, simple as that

they will downgrade your line on day of install and thats why your exchange has been included on that blasted map


shin

SkepticOne

Originally posted by zz03
DSL over ISDN is not a problem in other countries and it is a requirement that you have ISDN before you can get DSL on the Deutsche Telekom network. Large scale DSL deployment in a non-ISDN compatible platform can cause crosstalk problems for the network as a whole. Engineering-wise DSL comes from the same stable as ISDN. PSTN comes from a different planet.

Yes, obviously DSL is possible over ISDN. Whether it is incompatible with some exchanges here is the question. So far no evidence has been put forward other than the fact that 'ISDN' appears after some exchanges on list of exchanges where broadband is supposedly available.

The assumptions we are asked to make is that a) 'isdn' represents isdn dedicated exchanges and that b) you can get DSL over ISDN from these exchanges. Even assuming these are the case, it does not lead to the conclusion that DSL over ISDN is not possible out of these other exchanges. It could simply be that Eircom have chosen not to supply it out of these other exchanges.

Furthermore, I've yet to hear of anyone in Ireland that has DSL over ISDN and the official line is that it is not available, so we can't conclude anything from that map. We have no way of determining its veracity.

All I'm saying is lets get a bit of evidence together before we start speculating about the need to swap a load of expensive switching equipment in Ireland.

The stuff about mobile phones and Ericson management may become relevant when we get some facts together.

ando

Originally posted by shinzon
if you do a test for adsl over isdn youll get an incompatible product on the line result

ditto, I have 2 lines coming into my house, one POTS, one ISDN, both of which are connected to the same exchange. The Pots line is passing the Radsl test, the Isdn line is failing

DSLinAbsentia

If you disconnect your ISDN equipment will you then pass have you tried this?

With respect to an earlier post: With DSL you still pay line rental. There's no escape from the crack-cocaine part of the service!

vac

Wish they'd sort the adsl testing over isdn first.

jd

My dad's isdn(high speed) connection passed for adsl-interestingly only on one phone number though-the original phone number he had before he got hi-speed

Calibos

I got my Isdn line tested over that eircom chat thinghy. I'm presuming it was a live test and not just pulled from the database because my phone rang and hung up before my 'unreliable Dect cordless answer machine phone':rolleyes: :rolleyes: answered it. Needless to say I failed.

Heres the transcript:

You : Hi. How do I go about getting my line tested?

i-stream : If you can confirm your telephone number I can check the line for you ******.

You : *******, I'm on ISDN

i-stream : One moment please...

You : I take the phone ringing was you?

i-stream : I'm afraid that line has failed the prequal ******. You may be too far away from the exchange or perhaps there is degradation in the copper on your line.

You : is this the new radsl test or the old istream one?

You : You did take into account that I'm on ISDN??

i-stream : It includes all broadband services; ADSL and RADSL.

i-stream : Yes, the filters for ISDN testing were updated last week I'm afraid.

You : What about testing the second ISDN number

i-stream : All numbers on the account are tested simultaneously so the auxillary number has failed too.


Where do I go from here? I'm in Bray btw. Anyone know where the Bray exchange is??

If its my line rather than distance they can come up and replace my line for free. Theres about 2 inches exposed on the footpath outside the house just before it goes into the eircom junction box at the bottom of my driveway. The outer shielding on the cable has been worn away by my and my neighbours cars.

zz03

Originally posted by Calibos

You : What about testing the second ISDN number

ISDN uses channels rather than "lines" and they all come down the same copper pair. They wouldn't be testing individual ISDN channels for DSL suitability - it's the copper pair that is being tested.

I'm in Bray btw. Anyone know where the Bray exchange is??

Don't know where it is but I know that it is running on the Alcatel E10 platform.

You should disconnect all home wiring, DECT phones and anything else before you get them to test your copper loop again.

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zz03

Originally posted by jd
My dad's isdn(high speed) connection passed for adsl-interestingly only on one phone number though-the original phone number he had before he got hi-speed

That is probably because the "test" was taken ages ago when it was a PSTN line and they were just looking up a database which was not up to date.

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zz03

Originally posted by SkepticOne
When they get DSL, ISDN suddenly becomes obsolete and given the choice they will opt for DSL over POTS.

ISDN was never designed to compete with broadband. If it "suddenly becomes obsolete" for residential customers, eircom's marketing people haven't been doing their job. They should be flogging them ISDN DECT phones (which offer a far superior solution to a family home or SOHO environment) than PSTN (2 calls at a time, direct dialling to the individual required, separate fax and voice numbers etc)

PSTN is 100 years old. A mass conversion of residential ISDN subscribers from ISDN to PSTN is just clueless brain dead. Yet another aspect of Ireland's approach to infrastructural issues. Is it no wonder that there is a shortage of copper pairs in many areas.

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SkepticOne

Originally posted by zz03
PSTN is 100 years old. A mass conversion of residential ISDN subscribers from ISDN to PSTN is just clueless brain dead. Yet another aspect of Ireland's approach to infrastructural issues. Is it no wonder that there is a shortage of copper pairs in many areas.

The future will involve leaving behind Eircom and everything to do with their infrastructure.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by zz03
ISDN was never designed to compete with broadband. If it "suddenly becomes obsolete" for residential customers, eircom's marketing people haven't been doing their job. They should be flogging them ISDN DECT phones (which offer a far superior solution to a family home or SOHO environment) than PSTN (2 calls at a time, direct dialling to the individual required, separate fax and voice numbers etc).

Eircom cleverly hooked in to broadband marketing abroad in order to sell ISDN as a means of "hi speed" internet access. Of course, ISDN is rubbish for internet access compared to broadband in other countries, but its lack of utility is made up by the high prices they were able to squeze out of businesses and individuals in the absence of any real alternative. Test marketing started around 1999 just as broadband in Europe was beginning to take off.

Of course, now a lot of people have these boxes on the wall that prevent DSL over ISDN (as in Germany). This is not a huge problem for Eircom, it is a problem for the consumer.

Venom

They can now test your ISDN line to see if you qualify for DSL. I had mine tested and now pass. Hell the next day I even got a call from a sales rep trying to flog me some of their packages

jd

Originally posted by zz03
That is probably because the "test" was taken ages ago when it was a PSTN line and they were just looking up a database which was not up to date.

zz..

not so-he originally failed..(pre radsl launch)
jd

zz03

Originally posted by jd
not so-he originally failed..(pre radsl launch)
jd

The test data represents the electrical characteristics of the loop - rather than a true/false indicator for "did the line pass a test?" Aside from the more generous pass hurdle for rate adaptive modems, eircom have been using the pass / fail as a means of slowing down the demand / roll out of DSL.

Values that constituted a fail at some point in the past can easily be turned into a pass by lowering the hurdle.

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jd

Originally posted by zz03
The test data represents the electrical characteristics of the loop - rather than a true/false indicator for "did the line pass a test?" Aside from the more generous pass hurdle for rate adaptive modems, eircom have been using the pass / fail as a means of slowing down the demand / roll out of DSL.

Values that constituted a fail at some point in the past can easily be turned into a pass by lowering the hurdle.

zz..

Problem with your theory is he got the high speed pre i-stream launch by a quite a few months.

Dustaz

Originally posted by jd
not so-he originally failed..(pre radsl launch)
jd

The test for adsl is actually a test to see if you qualify for 1mb dsl, even if your only getting 512. The test for radsl is one to see if you can get 256k afaik.

zz03

Originally posted by jd
Problem with your theory is he got the high speed pre i-stream launch by a quite a few months.

What's your theory? It has to be a database error of one type or another. Either they are using out of date data for the old PSTN line or they have some problem recognizing the fact that you have an old PSTN number as one of the addresses for your BRA and a "proper" ISDN number for the second channel.

You can't have a BRA ISDN setup where one channel tests OK for DSL and the other doesn't, because they are both delivered down the same copper pair. If you do encounter a problem, it is questionmark time about the validity of eircom's test procedure.

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zz03

Originally posted by Dustaz
The test for adsl is actually a test to see if you qualify for 1mb dsl, even if your only getting 512. The test for radsl is one to see if you can get 256k afaik.

Fine. He passed for 1Mbit/sec on one channel of his BRA and failed on the other. Same copper pair. Still crap.

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jd

Originally posted by zz03


You can't have a BRA ISDN setup where one channel tests OK for DSL and the other doesn't, because they are both delivered down the same copper pair. If you do encounter a problem, it is questionmark time about the validity of eircom's test procedure.

zz..

I know that-thats why i said interestingly.(rgarding the second number failing).
Question is then why did one number change from fail to pass..?

dahamsta

Just said I'd post here to mention that I'm on "Hi Speed" and my lines are returning an error to Netsource, that the lines don't match (with the a/c no). I'm guessing my problem is either the fact that I'm a UTV telephony user, or that my exchange is currently being worked on, or that the ISDN line tests are simply crap. Not sure if it's related in any way, shape or form, but there you go.

adam

NóMur

I've just had a quick read of this post.

I'm also an ISDN user. Before installing ISDN I had the ADSL test done and failed. I'm about 3.2km from my exchange, you need to be under 2 for the original test.

While on ISDN I rang eircom again after reading somewhere here that they could test over ISDN and had changed some test parameters. At that time Eircom said they couldn't test it but could test on the 11th of April for RADSL.

I rang again on the 11th and passed the RADSL test over ISDN. I don't think that was any database result.

douglasman

With regard to ISDN DSL tests, Eircom only test the primary ISDN number, no need to test the secondary number as it's the same copper pair, so second number will always fail, but that's meaningless, it's just that Eircom are so bad in explaining that this is what's going on, so if the primary number passes, you're fine.

Also Eircom are still charging 20 euro to downgrade ISDN to PSTN as part of a DSL order, I thought they were told to stop this, but still doing it.

dardoz

jesus, is that all? when i downgraded about a year ago it cost me 100 euro