American Liberators

SCULLY

America strikes again.....

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1088956,00.html

Sarky

Hmm, an article on the same website quoted mr. Bush as saying

"no matter what your faith, freedom is God's gift to every person in every nation,"

It brought a smile to my face...

shotamoose

What, again ? This is getting to be a habit. Even assuming that they fired because they felt threatened, there's still better ways to go about introducing peaceful democracy to a country. When soliders shot civilians in Northern Ireland people were rather reluctant to forget ....

Originally posted by Sarky
Hmm, an article on the same website quoted mr. Bush as saying

"no matter what your faith, freedom is God's gift to every person in every nation,"

I wish he'd stop saying that. God does not appear in the US constitution, and I seem to recall hearing something about the seperation of church and state being fairly central to the whole set-up.

Sparks

shotamoose,

I wish he'd stop saying that. God does not appear in the US constitution, and I seem to recall hearing something about the seperation of church and state being fairly central to the whole set-up.

It doesn't appear and disestablishmentarianism was a serious influence on the founding of the US - but it'd be a bit naive to think that was the current situation. Without it being made specifically illegal to mix church and state, the two will never stay apart.

Besides, for those not following it, the current proposed EU constitution is to contain an invocatio Dei, championed happily here by John Bruton, over the protests of several minority religious groups and a larger non-religious group (Humanists, which come in third place in the list of world religions).

So disestablishmentarianism hasn't won yet. Dammit.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
Besides, for those not following it, the current proposed EU constitution is to contain an invocatio Dei

No it isn't. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2734345.stm

Officials in Brussels have omitted the word God from the European Union's future constitution.

None of the chapters mentions any deity, or any explicitly religious or Christian values supposed to underpin the European project.

So you can relax, the Eurocrats aren't going to drag you off and forcibly baptise you.

Éomer of Rohan

At least 13 Iraqis were killed as they demonstrated against US presence at a school in the town 30 miles west of Baghdad,

Same figure and all. Such liberators. And I would like to read the protests of the pro-war crowd as they say that the Iraqis attacked the Americans despite their claims that Iraq was now free and that Iraq could choose their own way and so forth....it appears they did just that and look what happens.

Sparks

Meh,
Sorry, but the invocatio dei was in the preamble. It's not binding as the articles would be, but it sets the tone of the document for future interpretation. That's why it's important - and so far as I know (I got a letter back from Bruton a little over 2 weeks ago) it's still going in.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sarky
"no matter what your faith, freedom is God's gift to every person in every nation,"

If I'm an atheist, does this mean that freedom doesnt exist, or just that I dont get to have it?

jc

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Same figure and all. Such liberators. And I would like to read the protests of the pro-war crowd as they say that the Iraqis attacked the Americans despite their claims that Iraq was now free and that Iraq could choose their own way and so forth....it appears they did just that and look what happens.

hmm, on tonights channel four news, the Americans put on display guns that they claim were being used to shoot at them.

Originally posted by shotamoose
When soliders shot civilians in Northern Ireland people were rather reluctant to forget ....

Thats true, but I don't recall any British soldiers who shot civilians in NI appearing on television giving interviews about it..,their commanders maybe, and tonight they were saying they were being fired at.
mm

Captain Trips

Originally posted by shotamoose

I wish he'd stop saying that. God does not appear in the US constitution, and I seem to recall hearing something about the seperation of church and state being fairly central to the whole set-up.

It doesn't - it is like this in the Declaration of Independence which says, " . . . that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

BUT, the Pledge of Allegiance is the bit with "one nation under God".

ALSO, every (federal) monetary denomination from cent coins to hundred dollar bills says "In God We Trust".

And then of course, the fact that the republicans are all of the neo-con/wasp type.

Give that they've walked all over most parts of the Constitution and Bill of Rights already, and started to become so ultra-god-fearing since the federal government effected control of the economy 80 years ago (or thereabouts), we were told that there would be *no* Islamic government and that Bush has so lovingly invoked imagery of such with his talk of crusades against evil, etc., it's safe to say that they are well and truly fscked.

That, and Hilary Rosen writing IP law (don't know if it's true yet though). Like someone on /. said, it's like Charleton Heston heading up the Dept. of Gun Control.

bonkey

Originally posted by Captain Trips
And then of course, the fact that the republicans are all of the neo-con/wasp type.

Colin Powell is a WASP?????



jc

Sparks

CT,
That oath has since been changed to remove the reference to god...

Meanwhile, going for "quote of the year", an american soldier was interviewed on RTE tonight about the shootings ... and said that someone in the iraqi crowd had fired first because (and I **** you not on this) "We didn't come here for a fight".

Éomer of Rohan

LMFAO @ that quote

Sparks

Yeah, I spent a few minutes cleaning tea off my screen after hearing that one.

shotamoose

Originally posted by bonkey
If I'm an atheist, does this mean that freedom doesnt exist, or just that I dont get to have it?

jc

The only logical conclusion is that you hate freedom. But Islamic fundamentalists hate freedom too. Therefore you must be an Islamic fundamentalist.

Originally posted by Man
Thats true, but I don't recall any British soldiers who shot civilians in NI appearing on television giving interviews about it..,their commanders maybe, and tonight they were saying they were being fired at.

Doesn't really make it any better for the Iraqis who've lost families. As I said above I assume the Americans didn't just fire into a crowd on a whim but a bereaved community is not likely to look at it like that. I can't help but think there must have been a better way to deal with the situation, perhaps starting with not occupying the school in the first place.

"We didn't come here for a fight"

Never a truer word was spoke.

Sand

If I'm an atheist, does this mean that freedom doesnt exist, or just that I dont get to have it?

You mightnt believe in god bonkey, but god believes in you.

Version One:

A local Sunni Muslim cleric, Kamal Shaker Mahmoud, said the demonstrators were unarmed and had gone to a local school occupied by US troops to ask them to leave

The soldiers then opened fire, he said.

Version Two:

Members of the 1st Battalion of the 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment of the 82nd Airborne Division came upon a group of Iraqis armed with AK-47s last night.

"The Iraqis fired on them. The troops returned fire."

I know by this stage im the unofficial US flag waver but two things:

1) All we have are versions of the truth at this stage - not the truth itself. Claim one or the other as more believable ( As i shortly will ) but save the judgements until the results are in.

2) Version one is a tad harder to understand for a wide variety of reasons than version two.

Lemming

From here

Brigadier-General Vince Brooks said US marines and special forces soldiers fired at demonstrators on Tuesday after they came under attack from people shooting guns and throwing rocks.

Eyewitnesses said US troops then fired on a crowd close to the building from nearby rooftops.

However, one marine told the Associated Press news agency the troops were responding to fire from a building across a park.

US forces had earlier denied responsibility for the killings on Tuesday.

<SNIP>

A US spokesman said troops were returning fire from a nearby building and did not aim into the crowd.

And who wants to point out the discrepancies there .........

"throwing rocks ..... " umm, yeah, definitely worth a bullet in the head.

Secondly, if they were taking fire from a building some distance away, then WHY OH WHY did they point their guns directly at a crowd right in front and below them???

Thirdly, why did they deny it?

THe whole thing just doesn't add up to dry sh*t :mad:

Sparks

Sand,

You mightnt believe in god bonkey, but god believes in you.

Oh god, my grandmother is posting on the board :eek:

As to this latest clusterfcuk, this is why the UN should be in there in blue berets, not US troops who haven't got the training for this job!

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from Sand

You mightn't believe in god bonkey, but god believes in you.

Is there no escape from this patronising crap? Surely there is a rule against this?

As to this latest clusterfcuk, this is why the UN should be in there in blue berets, not US troops who haven't got the training for this job!

Agreed

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
You mightnt believe in god bonkey, but god believes in you.

If a god did exist, then he/she/it sure as sh1t shouldnt have to believe in anything.They're supposed to be omniscient and all that

I must be a freedom-hating Islamic Fundamentalist atheist....

although personally I'd prefer to be a "Fundamentalist Pacificist".....you know...I could put forward my strong beliefs that if you arent peaceful, I'll be extremely disappointed.

jc

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Same figure and all. Such liberators. And I would like to read the protests of the pro-war crowd as they say that the Iraqis attacked the Americans despite their claims that Iraq was now free and that Iraq could choose their own way and so forth....it appears they did just that and look what happens.

Some Iraqis shooting at Americans can hardly be considered the true democratic voice of the Iraqi people.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Quoted from Sand
Is there no escape from this patronising crap? Surely there is a rule against this?

Let's all turn our irony detectors to ON shall we?

Sparks

Neither can less than a hundred Iraqis (some identified as having been brought into the country by the US) knocking down a statue.
And yet...

(ps.Biffa, I've heard that "god believes in you" line, verbatim from priests, nuns, and grandmothers down through the years. Irony detectors off, they were actually being serious. Pratts.)

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Sparks
As to this latest clusterfcuk, this is why the UN should be in there in blue berets, not US troops who haven't got the training for this job!

Indeed. Because if civil war threatens to break out, you can always rely on the UN to leap into action to restore order and protect civilians from being massacred.

Ahem.

Sparks

Indeed. Because if civil war threatens to break out, you can always rely on the UN to leap into action to restore order and protect civilians from being massacred.

So long as it doesn't impede the interests of one of the UNSC members with a permanent veto...
*sigh*
And of course you said "civil" war, which implies it's not an international situation, which generally precludes the UN from being able to do much... unless you'd like to empower them to override national soverignty when it's felt to be justified...

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Sparks
So long as it doesn't impede the interests of one of the UNSC members with a permanent veto...
*sigh*
And of course you said "civil" war, which implies it's not an international situation, which generally precludes the UN from being able to do much... unless you'd like to empower them to override national soverignty when it's felt to be justified...

Sorry, don't understand your point. My point is that if American troops were replaced with UN "peacekeepers", the country would rapidly slide into chaos as various factions would compete for power knowing full well the UN would do f**k all about it.

Sparks

The balance of the UN's record in other peacekeeping missions says otherwise Biffa.
The balance of the US's record so far is Afghanistan and Iraq.

Frankly, I'd go with the UN myself.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Sparks
The balance of the UN's record in other peacekeeping missions says otherwise Biffa.

Like where? Bosnia?

Sparks

Nope. Try again. You have several more choices, you see, because the UN, unlike the US, actually has a record of peacekeeping.
Try here for more info

Éomer of Rohan

Let's all turn our irony detectors to ON shall we?

Yeah? Well my trolling detector shut down with overload problems at this point.

Sorry, don't understand your point. My point is that if American troops were replaced with UN "peacekeepers", the country would rapidly slide into chaos as various factions would compete for power knowing full well the UN would do f**k all about it.

His point is quite valid; the situation in Iraq no longer fits the guidelines under which the US went to war (much as I disagreed with them) and now they should withdraw to make way for UN troops - after all, the withdrawal of US troops does seem to be the will of the new democracy in Iraq - or are the US and the pro-war supporters going to come up with some excuse to prolong US presence there? The UN can deal with anything in that country and now there is no longer a need for a US presence. The continued presence is clear justification of the view that the US had neo-Imperialist aims in Iraq.

Gordon

Originally posted by Sparks
So disestablishmentarianism hasn't won yet. Dammit.

Wow, thats the first time I've seen that word being used! Any chance you can fit floccinoccinihilipilification (sp) into your posts? (afaik it means -to make something extremely extremely small. I suggest you use Bush's brain as the focal point )

/offtopicness