BBC FTA Tests

watty · 07-05-2003 6:06pm

10773 H SR22,000 5/6
I do have
BBC ONE
BBC ONE NI
BBC TES 3
BBC TWO
CBBC Channel
CBeebies

Now and Next EPG but Encrypted. I guess not FTA till 1st June.
(Island /Iceland test on 10729V)

I'm scanning to see if the "originals" are gone. If the originals are gone, then these arn't tests ;-)

some minutes later...

Hmm. The aforementioned are the ACTUAL channels, not tests.
This means a lot of folk in Malta, Cyprus, Greece, Southern Itally, Balkans, Nrth Africa with big dishes and Digiboxs with FTV/Sub cards have no BBC1 tonight.

My theory is that anyone in Europe who wanted BBC via Sky got it long since and FTA on 2D really does reduce then number of viewers compared with not 2D & Encrypted.

I expect the expats etc in those places will lose the rest of the BBC channels tomorrow

DMC · 07-05-2003 6:48pm

Watty, how does one know which frequency the EPG info for the BBC channels are aimed at? I mean, when there are two identical channels broadcasting on two different transponders, how do you know which broadcast of the two is appearing on the EPG?

jabarrett35 · 07-05-2003 6:50pm

Reading on digispy they still have BBC in southern Spain but Malta appears to have lost it.

watty · 07-05-2003 7:21pm

Originally posted by DMC
Watty, how does one know which frequency the EPG info for the BBC channels are aimed at? I mean, when there are two identical channels broadcasting on two different transponders, how do you know which broadcast of the two is appearing on the EPG?

Unless you can spot some differenvce there is no way to know what the Digibox is using..

But when there is only one set of channels and they have changed, then you know what the Digibox must be using.

The Digibox you can't even know what the "Other Channels" were unless you wrote it down.. very frustration when they added sw and it wouldn't store 50 anymore.. So I got fed up near about a year an half ago, and swithered about a Humax F1 or a PCI card for the PC.

The PC card is way better for "exploring", recording etc than Humax. It even feeds all the TVs in unlikely event something FTA not on a Digibox is worth watching.. I watch a lot on News & Current Affairs stuff on it NIle TV, BBC World TV, Ebs (All english). It good for radio too.

I can enter newly discovered lists of transponders for a Satellite in Notepad, go get cup of coffee and 300 odd channels updates automatically. U have to know Freq, H/V and SR, but is does FEC automatically, and there is even a slow autosearch for unknown transponders unknown FEC if you set Polarity & SR. It does ALL SR certinally so far from 2,110 to 30,000 (I think it does up to 45,000)

DMC · 07-05-2003 8:24pm

Thanks for that, watty, I was fairly sure it was like that.... Like no lay person would know the difference between the two RTÉ Radio 1 feeds, but as we know that the version on the EPG is the mono WRN feed.

And just reading on other forums about Lyngsat, it seems a lot of folk are now knocking it, its not as quick as it used to be

Charles Slane · 07-05-2003 9:25pm

Originally posted by watty
The aforementioned are the ACTUAL channels, not tests.

Isn't it amazing how quickly they can do these things when they put their minds to it !!!

carrolls · 07-05-2003 9:49pm

.

how do you know which broadcast of the two is appearing on the EPG?

They are still using the old BBC frequencies on the EPG. I put the 9.75 frequency up to 10.20 in the LNB menu and ITV/RTE were disabled, but BBC was still working.

Although having said that, the Beeb might be up to some software trickery to disguise the fact that they are using only the lower freq's.

watty · 07-05-2003 10:23pm

Seems I shot the gun a little..

The problem is I never stored the BBC 2A channels as they are encrypted.

I expected to see the original BBC show up in the "New" channel list, and sure enough only the BBC not on 2D (and stored) came up on the "New" channels list. The SW regarded the "original" "A with copies on 2D as "Updates" so didn't lit them in the new channels view.

Still, it shows the BBC *IS* going ahead with the move.

Also show Carrolls is smarter than Guardian Newspaper and Watty..

Never thought of doing that to the Digibox..

Charles Slane · 07-05-2003 11:02pm

So does this mean that the 2D broadcasts are still "tests" ? In other words, what we're seeing on 214/5 are not off 2D ?

I thought it seemed to be a very quick (and painless) switch-over.

I guess we can expect to see other transponders firing up over the next couple of days.

Is it reckoned they'll use three, or will they need more if they're going to bring more of their sub-regions on air ?

Good work on the test-checking guys !

DMC · 07-05-2003 11:10pm

Originally posted by Charles Slane
Good work on the test-checking guys !

Watty's in his element

Many thanks so for and good stuff, guys, these BBC tests and the info the guys are finding are just like the BBC, to inform, educate and entertain!

Charles Slane · 07-05-2003 11:17pm

Originally posted by DMC
Many thanks so for and good stuff, guys, these BBC tests and the info the guys are finding are just like the BBC, to inform, educate and entertain!

LOL

By the way, thanks for taking the question mark off the title of the thread.

watty · 08-05-2003 8:10am

Originally posted by Charles Slane
So does this mean that the 2D broadcasts are still "tests" ? In other words, what we're seeing on 214/5 are not off 2D ?

I thought it seemed to be a very quick (and painless) switch-over.

I guess we can expect to see other transponders firing up over the next couple of days.

FOr Digibox users the changeover will be quick, painless and invisible. (If far east or south truely "invisible"!)

The 11720H is still there (now as I write), when it is gone (any day?) then the Digibox is using 2D for 214.

watty · 08-05-2003 8:22am

Some folks have surmised that at SR22,000K (on 2D ) rather than SR27,500K that the bit rate is lower = lower quality BBC.

It is true that the SR (Symbol Rate) is the "modem" speed so to speak, i.e. about 1000times faster than a dialup phone line!

FEC is Forward Error Correction
1/2 means a lot of the bit rate is used for error correction and 7/8 means hardly any.

The SR 27,500 channels use an FEC (on Sky) of 2/3 to allow smaller dish rthan Europe's Astra 1 FEC on 27500 usually of 3/4.

The Astra 2D because it has a smaller footprint, if it had the SAME power (it may not) as 2A, the signal would be much stronger. I measure it twice as strong (+3dB) here. So the 2D channels use lower FEC of 5/6, i.e. more of the bits are data and less are error correction.

So without some sums you can't compare the 2D 22,000 and 2A 27,500 symbol rates directly. It could be that for actual data, rather than data + error correction that 5/6&22,000 is actually a bit MORE than 2/3&27,500!

So any change in quality is unlikely.

carrolls · 08-05-2003 9:36am

Correct me if I'm wrong Watty , but all of the channels on 2D (especially RTE and ITV) seem to have a much cleaner and sharper picture than the channels on 2A.

watty · 08-05-2003 11:03am

According to Digital Spy poster more BBC have appeared on 2D.

I will check it out at 1pm and report...

redabbey · 08-05-2003 11:36am

Yes Watty all are there right now on that frequency that you posted

dmeehan · 08-05-2003 11:50am

what exactly is "more BBC"
the radio stations?

watty · 08-05-2003 12:44pm

http://www.lyngsat.com/dig/skyuk.shtml

lists the nearly current state.

Scroll down past 11720 H (the first group to move yesterday) to 11798H to see the BBC 2A original with some BBC TV and a lot of BBC Radio that has moved to 2D freq posted above.

This is now also on 2D (But wasn't listed yet at Lyngsat, probabily later today)

watty · 08-05-2003 1:54pm

All the existing BBC are now copied on 2D except BBC Parliament (it might not move?).

Nothing changed in encryption status (i..e FTA radio still FTA, Five Live etc still encrypted)

The Beeb site doesn't offer a timescale for the missing BBC 1 England "regions" to go on satellite.

Interactive *might* be a slight tad faster when the Digibox is changed to 2D for BBC as the "interactive" feeds have been on 2D some while (always?).

So the next milestone(s) are any new BBC channels relating to BBC 1 England Regions and any change to encryption.. Maybe R5 first?

watty · 08-05-2003 3:56pm

I forgot these BBC on 12441 V need to go to 2D Also.

(See lyngsat link above)

Perhaps this Afternoon or tommorrow on 2D.

Wouldn't surpise mee if Digibox is swapped over to 2D for BBC next week at latest.

Richard · 08-05-2003 6:01pm

Originally posted by watty
All the existing BBC are now copied on 2D except BBC Parliament (it might not move?).

The BBC website says "Will I still be able to receive BBC Parliament after the Dsat Changes?
Yes, BBC Parliament has never been encrypted and will continue to be broadcast unchanged."

I presume that "will continue to be broadcast unchanged" means that it is not moving transponder. It is on the same transponder as S4C, isn't it?

jabarrett35 · 08-05-2003 6:55pm

Just rebooted digibox to get the FTA EPG and lossed the other channels. This is the first time this happened to me in awhile. I was trying to check if the 2d BBC transmission are unencrypted as claimed on another forum. The're not of course.

DMC · 08-05-2003 7:01pm

Yep, thats the case, Richard, no change of transponder for BBC Parliament. I think I mentioned that in more detail before on this or the other FTA thread.

watty · 08-05-2003 7:14pm

Yep. 19:13 08 May 2003, lurking beside this as I type is blank screen from BBC on my PC sat Receiver.
No change as yet to any encryption.

So after this in Greece with a FTV card or Sub they will still get BBC Parliament.

BBC World Service Radio IS on 2D, though as with BBC generally still on 2A also.

I'd expect a reply (eventually) to my quiery about when and where you have to retune for BBC World Service, since it won't happen automatically on FTA receivers.

johnnyq · 09-05-2003 5:12pm

Have all the BBC's (but parlaiment) moved to 2D or are there more channrls to come?

watty · 09-05-2003 5:19pm

There are some more, mostly Interactive feeds, One transponder.
Also part of the idea is to ADD the English regions not yet on Satellite. No mention any place I found on BBC of when that might happen.

Charles Slane · 10-05-2003 12:22pm

Just to recap -

10733H 22 5/6 is now a copy of all BBC services on 11720H

10803H 22 5/6 is now a copy of all BBC services on 11798H

10847V 22 5/6 is showing BBC1 LN ( not available on ROI cards)

The next move will be the BBC services (interactive etc) currently on 12441V.

telecinesk · 15-05-2003 8:47am

Next question is when the switchoff of 2a/b transponders.. Im dreading the grief of fitting a 1.5m dish here, its not the expense its the "family" with respect to its size.. Is anyone in Hungary/Austria picking up 2d btw??? Hellp.

16-05-2003 9:53am

Hi Everyone,
I'm in the sunny and warm south of france at the moment:)
Where the , local "english" language press (The riviera times ) has a couple of adverts in, for digiboxes for €299 and headlining the BBC change-over from june 1st.
mm

arkles · 16-05-2003 10:53am

Bastard !!

robert muldoon · 18-05-2003 7:23pm

I am in southern Spain at the moment enjoying super weather for the last 10 days and i am using a BBC FTV card, the interesting thing is that I am receiving ITV perfectly, does this mean that I will also get BBC with the same reception when it changes over to Astra 2D?

watty · 19-05-2003 8:15am

The card is still using the 2A channels we think.

See if you can get Irish Radio: 2Fm, RnaG and Lyric FM. They are free to air and on 2D.

There is a little confusiion about RTE1 Radio, as it *IS* on 2D but the Sky Digibox EPG was using a non-2D WRN feed. I'm not sure if this is updated yet (The WRN feed is mono, the 2D channel is Stereo)

watty · 19-05-2003 9:08am

10.936 (V?) 22,000 5/6

Giving an excellent Signal / Quality but no Radio Or TV showing up on an automatic scan.

Maybe the last block of BBC Interactive feeds on 12441V?

Charles Slane:
10733H 22 5/6 is now a copy of all BBC services on 11720H
10803H 22 5/6 is now a copy of all BBC services on 11798H
10847V 22 5/6 is showing BBC1 LN ( not available on ROI cards)

The next move will be the BBC services (interactive etc) currently on 12441V.

ShaneOC · 19-05-2003 11:26am

Originally posted by robert muldoon
I am in southern Spain at the moment enjoying super weather for the last 10 days and i am using a BBC FTV card, the interesting thing is that I am receiving ITV perfectly, does this mean that I will also get BBC with the same reception when it changes over to Astra 2D?

Yes, you should. Are you receiving ITV clearly at all times?

jabarrett35 · 19-05-2003 1:44pm

I think my lnb or dish must have become misaligned because I'm receiving no signal on 10733H and I get some pixilation on some other channes. Should try and fix it myself. I'm getting ITV and CH4. I am getting 10803H.

I think its meant to be 10773H because that work fine and thats what Lyngsat says it is. Had fiddle about and the problems with pixilation are sorted.

carrolls · 21-05-2003 9:04am

As of last night he beeb on the EPG has now switched over to 2D and switched off the old frequencies.
So anyone outside the footprint will now need bigger dishes and the like.

Greenman · 21-05-2003 11:18am

Not if they go through the "Other channels" for the moment!!!

corm500 · 21-05-2003 11:34am

Up until yesterday I was getting "This programme is not available" on the Beeb channels that I had saved. Today I am getting " no satellite signal is being recieved" I live in Celbridge, surely the footprint could not be that small.

Corm500

carrolls · 21-05-2003 12:46pm

All the Beebs on 11720H are gone.

watty · 21-05-2003 2:40pm

Ah..
The 10.936GHz isn't BBC Interactive, it is Sky Sports stuff.

So another transponder still needed..

With another one again for the extra BBC england Regions when they start.

telecinesk · 21-05-2003 5:05pm

Looks like the rot has set in. No signal off 11720 H, guessing EPG is telling my receiver to go to Astra 2D..

Just as well my 1.3M and 0.3 lnb arrived today. Dish on ground and 2D is there, well the signal meter I use for work tells me, need to put it on balcony to get it to really work or at least get Vertical transponders to come in above threshold.. Fingers crossed..

Im 49N 19E so anyone in Poland/Slovakia/Czech/Hungary have a bit of work to do>>>>
Anyone else down here ???

DMC · 21-05-2003 5:20pm

As this is already reported in the tests thread, threads merged

telecinesk, best of luck with the new dish, I hope you get it.

telecinesk · 21-05-2003 9:36pm

Thanks Damo for thread merge, makes sense>
I did some preliminary tests earlier. Looks like Vertical polarity is stronger here. 10847V and 10906V showing signs of a signal but too weak to lock currently. Then again dish on ground at mo near tree and house. Think a visit to the balcony will do the trick.
So based on that I hope to have BBC1 LN and UTV.. I will keep you posted...

Irulan · 21-05-2003 11:28pm

Satcure has reported the following.

>> * BBC changes

May 21, 2003

Today the BBC transmissions were transferred to Astra 2D.

To get the BBC channels do this:

(By the way, if you ARE getting a signal then there's no need to do
this in the first place because the BBC channels are still in the
EPG!)

Press Services 6 (other channels).
Delete any channels already there (by pressing yellow button repeatedly).
Now press Backup 44 (Add channels).
Type in the following frequency and select the rest:

10773
H
22.0
5/6
Add channels
Select

Now repeat for this:

10803
H
22.0
5/6
Add channels
Select

Today you can access all BBC programmes via Services 6 (Otherchannels)

If you get "No signal" that means either you didn't clear out the
existing Other Channels or else you really are getting no signal.

(All BBC programmes are still scrambled, by the way).

However I have tried this and I am still getting the dreaded 08 message .:mad::mad: :mad:

Mossy Monk · 22-05-2003 12:21am

i thought that this change wouldn't be noticeable on a digibox. this morning i turned to 214 for Breakfast and i kept getting the technical problem message. BBC 2 worked fine though. i had to watch GMTV through the aerial instead

watty · 22-05-2003 9:45am

My Irish sub is OK

Charles Slane · 22-05-2003 7:38pm

The changeover seems to have gone fine, but I wonder how many people whose dishes are not 100% correctly aligned have had problems seeing the Beeb on 2D.

It also seems that the 2D footprint overlap is bigger than expected and more people on continental Europe are still able to receive the Beeb than originally expected. Is it possible to tighten the beam ?

Capt'n Midnight · 22-05-2003 9:20pm

Is it possible to tighten the beam ?

Unless they have designed a mechanism on the satellite - no

Technically a Variable geometry horn or a feed that could move in or out or using several antennas and phasing could work - but moving parts are a bad idea and you'd loose so much signal that it is a non-starter.

BTW - on one of the satellites for indonesia they shaped the feed horn so the signal was not an elipse.

technically it would be possible to shape a satellite transponder to just cover Ireland - would mean we could use very neat dishes - but don't hold your breath....

telecinesk · 23-05-2003 8:27am

Morning lads,
Well 2d is doable here, I got a few emails and phonecalls from expats and its amazing who is down this end of europe> I think I have an excuse to install a 2M dish, had someone pleading for a result.... I will keep you posted..
Read theres people in south of spain with 2D so BBC miscalculated alright. Most of Germany easily covered too... hahah

Capt'n Midnight · 23-05-2003 12:27pm

Don't let them know

Best thing to do is to enquire politely of the BBC as to why you can't pick up the test signal's with your 1 m dish - and they will explain nicely that this is indeed the case - in which you can then go " Ah, fair enough " and leave it at that.

Result they are happy that only UK viewers can see FTA and you are happy 'cos less danger of them pulling back on FTA.

BBC FTA Tests

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