Is it useful to be certified ?

ZeFrog

Hello everybody



If you type in MCSE in some job search web sites, you find Technical support Level 1 jobs! with a salary range from 18 to 20k (I even saw a 10-20k job on irishjobs, with SAP!)


Are things going that bad ?

I have myself 2 certifications in Java (which were no help whatsoever to find a job unfortunately and here I am back to the good old tech support) and I also have the A+.

I was thinking of taking the HP-UX and then the 7 MCPs that give you the famous MCSE.

But : is it worth it ? I mean it's a huge investment (money and TIME ) it may take a year or more to get MCSE.

So if I do it, it s not to hear the agencies saying : sorry mcse is worth 18k we re only interested in experience blah blah blah


Is there anyone who thinks that certs make a difference ? Or should I spend my time in pubs instead of studying ?


Is there a way for motivated people to get there !?


:ninja:

ando

I'm mcse qualified but you need the experiance (4yrs) + qualification + luck to get any decent salary

Repli

Would that kind of qualification help get a foot in the IT industry?

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Repli
Would that kind of qualification help get a foot in the IT industry?

any qualification will get youa foot in the industry, however, its where you want to start and what you are willing to put up with.

i doubt if any self respecting mcse is going to go for a job worth 20k. hell, i dont have an mcse and i wouldnt stoop so low!

the best thing you can have is experience. its the one place where experience is more important than a cert.

ZeFrog

"any qualification will get youa foot in the industry, however, its where you want to start and what you are willing to put up with."


I ve got 3.5 years in Web dev + Java prog cert + J2EE cert from Sun.

I wanted a junior position in Java, I didn't expect too much money but agencies told me they were not recruiting entry level people at all.

So I limited my search at the Irish times (companies only) but I wasn't successful (I got 1 interview and it was a waste of time + the guy told me he had a HUGE list of applicants. I met 2 other candidates, they were Java dev with 3-4 years exp even though the ad wanted java or web dev with 1 year!!).

Now I am back to tech support, which of course I wanted to avoid at all cost, and my wages have dropped 10 k.
I m learning stuff all right but I'd like to start a progression. I don't want to start from scratch every now and again.

I believe it may be the Java area that is stuck. So I will take System admin certs. But then again my experience is not in Sys admin... it s a vicious circle !


I think you re right wwman, it s where you want to start. But where to start ?

In my opinion the best is to have a network of friends or relations in a variety of jobs. Mine are all in tech support

yop

It does help of course to have it, but personally I would recognise someone who has the experience ahead of an MCSE to be honest, but that depends on the company too.
You maybe as well to give yourself a project to learn and new tech. If it is programming then develop some daft product and add in as much as you can to it. Makes learning a bit easier.

RicardoSmith

I think theres a slow down across all areas, and theres no junior roles going. its doesn't really matter what area you are in. I've been seeing 20k a lot of all sorts of development jobs, even some that are asking for quite a lot of experience. To put this into perspective, you'd be likely to get more than this working in a shop/office or on a building site. Its stupid because anyone thats willing to work for 20k is going to leave at the first opportunity. So they'll have trained someone in and then they'll leave. I was told by one agency that they had 50-100 people going for one development job and that all of them were waaay overqualified.

My advice is to go off, learn something like .net or java do a course and so some projects in various technologies, then come back at the market in 6-12months when some sanity has returned to it. In the meanwhile get a fun job that pays more.

As for certification, well some places, just demand it. But if someone can't judge your level of experience and knowledge by talking to you over the phone or in an interview. Then they haven't got a clue themselves. Certification adds very little in my opinion. I can't remember the last time someone asked me did I do a degree, or do I have certifications in anything. All they want to know is what kinda work/projects you've done.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
In the meanwhile get a fun job that pays more.
.

sorry, that just made me laugh out loud

why would anyone thin kabout doing a job that wasnt fun and didnt paid well

Trebor

most large companies that higher staff go through HR first and they are told that the CV has to have at least such and such qualifications so it is helpful to get to an interview, mind you this would only apply to entry level jobs. the more specific the job the more attention they pay to experience, but if they are going to train you anyway then they just want to know you have the basics.

Kell

I was reading yesterday that some International bodies of IT top nobs are trying to exert pressure on companies and governments to reward people correctly for certification. The main problem cited is that IT is still a realtively new profession when compared to say Doctors, Dentists whatever. Basically this body is seeking the same sort of recognition and remuneration for people with IT qualifications as a Dentist would get.

It'll be a tough slog as in the last two years I know of peoples daily rates halving or worse and most places having to do more with less resources. A big problem too is that a lot of companies have recruitment freezes on at the moment and are working on consolidation rather than expansion.

Tough times ahead for quite a while methinks.

K-

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
sorry, that just made me laugh out loud

why would anyone thin kabout doing a job that wasnt fun and didnt paid well

...I don't know can't think of a single reason...

ToxicPaddy

Certification is all well and good when trying to get your CV noticed out of a bundle of about 100 others if you are going for an interview.... it does give you an edge over someone who has the same or slighly more experience but lacks that certification...

However, with IT being so new and technology moving fast, most certifications are outdated with 1 - 2 years, unlike other professions such medical and legal.. so while it is worth going to some expense to get those illusive certifications, do the minimum you need to get noticed, then try and see if the companies you are going for job interviews with will pay for you to complete them...

If you decide to specialise in some particular area, the a certification will help, but like most have said here, while it may get you in the door for an interview, any interviewer worth their salt wont take long to suss out if you have the experience, knowledge or a combination of both to do the job they are looking for.

The reason most companies are now paying peanuts to those with MCSE and the likes is because they arent fighting with a 100 other companies for a small pool of skilled workers like they were 3 - 5 years ago... now they can pay f*ck all and still get someone to do they job that they would have had to pay double or triple what they are offering now... and those they do choose are more than likely to be happy that they have a job and be grateful to the company for it...

Its the employers in the IT industry that are calling the shots these days to a certain degree and not the employees or prospective ones..

A lot of people who were used to getting everything they wanted, excessive amounts of money and making crazy demands on employers simply because they had a skill that was in big demand are finding it hard to get to grips with the fact they they actually have to work their arses off to prove they have what it takes and convince an employer at the same time to give them a job with a have decent salary, standard benefits (VHI, pension etc)...

Do the certifications if you feel you might be more confident going into an interview with them, but dont overspend.. just do enough, get your experience and it will fall into place..

Believe me, it took me 3 years to get into a job im finally happy in, granted the money could be slightly better but i dont think I know of a person on the boards working full time who doesnt think that about their own job...

jank

what do people think about the CCNA
is it worth doing im thinking of doing it in or around june/july
anybody here done yet??

Evil Phil

A mate of mine did the CCNA and was going on with further Cisco exams. He's employers wanted him to do them so he was getting a pay rise out of it.

Personaly I got fed up with trying to get jobs of people who I could run rings around so I've started my own company. Contracting still pays a fairly good amount so if I can get them I work them. It looks like I'll be doing complete projects for small companies. My first project moves from design to development next week

So I'm going for certification not from a point of more money but from a point of customer confidence. If you're working in a client-facing role then certs are always good.