Jobs for the boys

Victor

I'm not posting this in "Motors" in case it gives them ideas.

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So at any given time 2,000 Gardaí (according to the Commissioner from yesterday's papers) are on duty. And they get an average of about €7,000 each in overtime (apparently much of this is for court work). Yet they have only managed to issue 100 penalty point tickets per day (about 18,000 since the system started). Do I get the impression that certain work methods are being used to keep as many of them as possible in jobs that they "like" (Doughnut inspection comes to mind)?

I met with guys from the National Roads Authority a few weeks ago and the discussion drifted to speeding on main roads. The NRA operates a larger range of sensors for detecting speeding (it only shows someone was speeding, not who). In particular on the Chapleizod Bypass (the top of a long slope provides a favorite speed trap), when I suggested that signs* be put up to encourage people to slow down. They were aghast, they wanted people to be caught speeding.

Now there is a debate going on that speeding fines don't actually (a) make money (b) stop people speeding. I do wonder what is going on.

* The signs would cost perhaps €5,000 to install and pay for themselves in saved Garda manpower in a week. Possible text
"SLOW DOWN
Speed Limit 40
This area regularly monitored by Garda Checkpoints"

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/696096?view=Eircomnet

Only three speed cameras in operation in State
From:ireland.com
Thursday, 8th May, 2003

There are only three speed cameras in operation at any one time across the State, it was revealed today.

In addition there are only 20 speed camera boxes in the State, all of which are located in counties Dublin, Louth and Meath.

The statistic will fuel allegations that the Gardaí are too under-resourced to enforce the penalty points system.

Fine Gael spokesman on transport, Mr Denis Naughten, described the situation as "shocking".

"It proves that the Government's promise to extend speed cameras across the country was another empty commitment to the Irish public," he said. "This is a typical example of the Government's failure to address the ongoing carnage in our roads."

However, a Garda spokeswoman confirmed that as well as the three speed cameras, there were a number of other speed detection devices in operation.

These include laser and radar surveillance equipment as well as in-car and motorcycle detection devices.

There are also the mobile speed detection units or Gatso vans which will be familiar to Irish motorists.

Most speeding fines are issued by mobile garda units and experts believe the fixed speed cameras act more as a deterrent than as a detection.

Some €4 million has been collected in speeding fines by the unmarked Gatso vans in the Louth/Meath division over the last five years.

A spokesman for the Department of Transport said the fixed speed cameras had only been deployed since April 2000 and were still being run on a pilot basis.

He said a inter-departmental working group on road safety have commissioned a report into the effectiveness of speed cameras from a consultancy firm in Australia.

A decision on whether to extend speed cameras nationwide will based on recommendations in this report, he added.

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Other story: http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/694771?view=Eircomnet

Call made for gardai to be brought under FOI
From:ireland.com
Thursday, 8th May, 2003

Information Commissioner Mr Kevin Murphy has called for the gardaí to be made subject to the Freedom of Information (FOI) legislation.

Speaking at the publication of his annual report for 2002, Mr Murphy said while "most public bodies of significance have by now become subject to FOI - the only substantial omission is that of An Garda Síochána". The move would allow information held by the gardaí to be accessed by the public.

Mr Murphy, who will retire from his position in June, paid tribute to the success of his office over the last five years.

bonkey

Originally posted by Victor
when I suggested that signs* be put up to encourage people to slow down. They were aghast, they wanted people to be caught speeding.

In general, I would agree with them.....although I dont know if their reasoning is in any way comparable to mine.

Unless we envisage a system where every inch of road is monitored, all the signage serves to do is say to people "there are cameras here, speed somewhere else".

Personally, I dont think that this is likely to ever solve the problem. I know too many drivers who will keep the limit rigidly when they know there's cameras, but who will break it willfully elsewhere.

Personally, I think the sooner such people lose their licenses, the better it is for everyone....and telling them where the traps are by putting up signs is only going to delay that.

Of course, if the system if only fine-based, and doesnt put your license at risk, then its pretty pointless either way.
jc

DeVore

Nail reckless drivers to a cross.


I fully support the points system and I'm glad its begining to strike fear into motorists. They should have it for everything imho. Drunk and Disorderly, vandalism, petty crime. 12 points and you get a jail term.

Either we are serious about our laws and they should be enforce as effectively as possible or we should adjust the laws so that we become serious about their enforcement.

DeV.

Kell

On the subject of points for speeding.

I rigidly adhere to the speed limit all the time since the points system came into place. My insurance is expensive enough without points to add to it. In regards to speeding, particularly at low level speeds i.e. 32 in a 30 should there not be some element of leeway though?

Example: The other night the car in front failed to use the slip road for it's intended use. In other words, he stopped at the edge of the dualler rather than move up the slip road and tbh it píssed me off. Anyway as soon as he moved onto the dualler, I went outside him and accidentally (I promise) accelerated to 34-36 in a 30. As soon as I had spotted that I was above the limit, I dropped back down to 30. Anyway, what I didn't realise was there was a cop with a gun 200 yards up the road that probably clocked me doing 34 for all of 10 seconds but I will likely end up being posted a fine. Is this right? I didnt intentionally break the limit and I only did so for all of 10 seconds? Should there be a "well he's done 400 yards now and hasn't showed a sign of slowing up so lets do him" rule?

And before you go "Well you did break the law" on me, it's a bit different to knifing someone for 10 seconds and saying "yah, I did it unintentionally".

K-

bonkey

Originally posted by deVore
Nail reckless drivers to a cross.

You'd like it over here.

Some guy was caught doing somehting like 100km in a 50km zone. They fined him 6,000 CHF and took his license off him for 3 years.

In general, its something like 50CHF for every 5 km over the limit, up to 20km or 25km IIRC. After that, its a mandatory license suspension as well as a fine, the duration of which is decided upon what you were doing, where, and in what conditions.

jc

Victor

My issue is they are catching criminals instead of stopping crimes.

Originally posted by bonkey
In general, I would agree with them.....although I dont know if their reasoning is in any way comparable to mine. Unless we envisage a system where every inch of road is monitored, all the signage serves to do is say to people "there are cameras here, speed somewhere else".

Sorry the section of road is a high quality dual carriageway, with grade separated junctions for the most part, however given it's torturous route (vertically and laterally) the speed limit is 40. However people treat it as a motorway. Telling them specificly that it is a 40 zone will get rid of the profuse excuses of "I didn't know".

Map of location Green Road

Originally posted by Kell
I rigidly adhere to the speed limit all the time since the points system came into place. My insurance is expensive enough without points to add to it. In regards to speeding, particularly at low level speeds i.e. 32 in a 30 should there not be some element of leeway though?

There is some leeway of about 5-10mph, however they could still do someone for dangerous driving doing 20mph in a 30 zone.

bonkey

Originally posted by Victor
However people treat it as a motorway. Telling them specificly that it is a 40 zone will get rid of the profuse excuses of "I didn't know".

Hold on though....by law every change of speed limit in the nation must be signposted.

Are you saying that there is no notification when the limit drops to 40, or that the "I didnt know" excuse is just a polite "I wasnt watching the road I was driving on enough" excuse that we should accept.

If its the former, then anyone who queries the ticket cannot be held liable by the law...which requires to you to adhere to the posted speed limit IIRC. Also, in this case, I would agree with you 100%. If you want ppl to adhere to a speed-limit, you have to let them know that it exists, and therefore have to have signage.

However, if its the latter, then I have no sympathy for anyone who decides that signposts are not worthy of their attention.

jc

sceptre

Originally posted by DeVore
They should have it for everything imho. Drunk and Disorderly, vandalism, petty crime. 12 points and you get a jail term.

I quite like that idea. And I agree fully with your point about enforcing the law. Pointless having laws that we choose not to enforce just ebcause we don't feel like it.

Captain Trips

Originally posted by sceptre
I quite like that idea. And I agree fully with your point about enforcing the law. Pointless having laws that we choose not to enforce just ebcause we don't feel like it.

That's like California's 3 strikes law or something like that, isn't it?

I'd say it's a good idea - but the problem is that a) some Gardai have shown themselves to be quite irresponsible in certain situations (like John Carthy) (May Day riots) and following on fom this b) they do not like to be abke to found accountable.

Seeing speedtraps on dual carriageways with 60 limits and nice wide spaces is never going to make me believe that they want to reduce speeding or crashes because I don't think the majority of of accidents are on these big new roads.

Plus, it's stupid things like the "carnage" on our roads. It's just not true. There are more cars than ever on the roads, and road deaths are at the same level now as in 1960.

The death rat is 11 per 100,000. That is position 7 out of 15 in the EU (1999) (Google NRA Cache: http://www.google.ie/search?q=cache:XjKJG6Mf1ToC:www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/d340.PDF+1970+road+traffic+deaths+Ireland&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

http://www.transtat.dft.gov.uk/tables/tsgb01/8/80701.htm
http://www.actuaries.org/members/en/events/congresses/Cancun/ica2002_subject/mortality/mortality_70_jeffery_varios_a.pdf

% of male deaths in 1990 was 348 for road accidents and 251 for suicide. Ten years later it's 296 for RTAs but *356* for suicide.

Has anyone considered that the increase in suicidal behaviour in males may be in any linked to increased self-destructive behaviour behind the wheel? Increased drinking/fighting? Perhaps it's nothing to do with not knowing the rules of road or speeding, etc., but an inherent change in societies attitude to the young male - the scapegoat of every politician?

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
Hold on though....by law every change of speed limit in the nation must be signposted. Are you saying that there is no notification when the limit drops to 40, or that the "I didnt know" excuse is just a polite "I wasnt watching the road I was driving on enough" excuse that we should accept.

Traffic passes through several junctions / sets of traffic lights and then joins the bypass. People assume the speed limit changes, they are reminded with undersized "40" signs (about the size of a plate).