Did Iraqis like Saddam?

The Gopher

If I may say something controversial here is it inconceiveable that alot of Iraqis may have actually liked Saddam?Saying that I mean Sunni Muslims only.If you grow up seeing media and being taught every day about how brilliant he is you are going to start to believe it.I am sure there are many who believed he was brave in that he managed to survive an 8 year war and managed to avoid being ousted after taking on the worlds most powerful nation in 1991.He has survived numerous attempted coups,rebellions,wars assasinations and other problems.So is it so hard to believe that some Iraqis genuinely thought he was a good man?
At a number of anti US protests people have been seen holding Saddam portraits.And there were even celebrations in some areas on his birthday,which happened after the US had taken control of the country.
And you must remember that Baghdad is not the city Saddam first ruled-a small majority of residents are now shias and Kurds.For all we know the people out celebrating are by and large non sunnis.Perhpas the sunnis were the people who are cowering in their homes in fear of them being looted.

Mind you I dont think there is a chance of Saddam coming back to power but was the west lying in their claims that Saddam was only loved by an elite section of Iraqis who benefited from his corruption?Or were all those millions on the streets for his appearences really there of their own accord?And what about the footage of Saddam(or a look alike)being greeted by a large crowd in Baghdad when they knew that much of the city centre was under US control?

mike65

There's no doubt he had a following amoung some fellow sunnis esp those from his home town. Also many were in the employ of Saddam either directly or indirectly so may have felt some foolish loyality but I thnk the vast majority
put up with Saddams rule through fear and the inability
to change things...

Mike.

Sparks

Actually, he was quite liked by the biggest ethnic group in Iraq today. Not Kurds, Sunnis or Shiites - Women.
Iraq was/is the only state in the Middle east (with the possible exception of Israel) where women had equal rights to men.
And now, they're being ignored while the US rebuilds an Iraqi government. Just like in Afghanistan.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
Actually, he was quite liked by the biggest ethnic group in Iraq today. Not Kurds, Sunnis or Shiites - Women.

Except for the ones he had raped or gassed.

Also, women aren't an ethnic group.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by mike65
There's no doubt he had a following amoung some fellow sunnis esp those from his home town. Also many were in the employ of Saddam either directly or indirectly so may have felt some foolish loyality but I thnk the vast majority
put up with Saddams rule through fear and the inability
to change things...

Even a tyrant needs support and while he may have been feared, it does not mean he was hated. What, according to Machiavelli, a tyrant does need to avoid is hatred. The people may fear you, they may not love you, but as long as they do not hate you, you’re probably safe internally.

Ironically, nostalgia will probably cause support for him to increase, in much the way that it has for many former tyrants. Strong men are remembered fondly in nations in turmoil - “this wouldn’t have happened if he was around” is a common expression in any country that’s had a dictator in the past.

Originally posted by Meh
Also, women aren't an ethnic group.

Hmmm... I’ll say nothing... :rolleyes:

Sparks

Except for the ones he had raped or gassed.

In fairness, you yourself have stated that he did that to pretty much every ethnic grouping...

Also, women aren't an ethnic group.

Lemme guess - you'd have no problem with the "barefoot and pregnant" version of women's rights then?

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-8/1051510397239350.xml
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=68&ncid=68&e=15&u=/nyt/20030505/ts_nyt/iraqi_women_wary_of_new_upheavals

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
Lemme guess - you'd have no problem with the "barefoot and pregnant" version of women's rights then?

Actually, I would have a problem with that. Nice links, but utterly irrelevant. Doesn't change the fact that women aren't an ethnic group.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=ethnic

eth·nic adj.
2 a : of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background

Iraqi women are no more an ethnic group than Iraqi men are.

Éomer of Rohan

Hmmmm food for thought there;

Male culture could loosely be based around cars, taking over the world, sex, drinking, avoiding housework, football (insert sport of choice here), etc

Female culture could loosely be based around clothes, shopping, gossip, mothering or whatever.

Looks like women are an ethnic group LOL

mike65

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Ironically, nostalgia will probably cause support for him to increase, in much the way that it has for many former tyrants. Strong men are remembered fondly in nations in turmoil - “this wouldn’t have happened if he was around” is a common expression in any country that’s had a dictator in the past.

True enough, its like this country when occasionally someone
will say they wish Dev and the priests were still in charge.

Mike.

Éomer of Rohan

its like this country when occasionally someone
will say they wish Dev and the priests were still in charge

Do they?!?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by mike65
True enough, its like this country when occasionally someone
will say they wish Dev and the priests were still in charge.

Actually I’ve heard the “this wouldn’t have happened if he was around” argument a few times in both Italy and Spain. Also, it’s this very nostalgia that has helped bring the Communist party in Russia back to the very brink of power.

Éomer of Rohan

Also, it’s this very nostalgia that has helped bring the Communist party in Russia back to the very brink of power.

This is only true to a small extent - the communist party in the Russian Federation was always popular - and was made more so by the outlawing of it by the Yeltsin 'dynasty' not to mention the lack of real opposition (given that Yeltsin's party was built around one man's charm rather than a faceless bureaucrat - ie Putin). The other extreme party (the neo-fascist extreme right) are consistently discredited by the 30 million people that the USSR lost in the fight against Nazism and Fascism. Also, considering the failure of democracy (for example the consideration by the Putin regime of the suspension of democracy) and capitalism (the country is in a dire straight due to the Free Market - which took effect even while the communists were in power admittedly) is it any wonder that the Russians turn to something that projects an image of Russia as a superpower to rival the US once more?

The Corinthian

Have you been reading Indimedia again, Éomer?

You don't know a lot of Russians, do you?

Éomer of Rohan

I know a few Russians - I have a penpal in Rostov (on the River Don) in Russia with whom I write in French and have done for about 5 years. I have NEVER read Indymedia - there are other Socialists who deal with the BS put out by that particular site.
What is your point?

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Do they?!?

yes some do...
Gerry Ryan, had a very fervant lady on during the week, who owns a guest house in Co Cavan.
You won't be allowed share a bed with a woman in her guesthouse, unless you are marriedfor it's against God's law .
mm

Victor

Apparently there are / was 500,000 members of the Ba'ath Party. Saddam delivered substantial autonomy to, especially, the Kurds. Women were in a much better position than in many neighbouring countries. Some people had some respect for him, in the same way we have that love / hate relationship with our boss.

The is a saying attributed to Arabs*. I fight against my brother. With my brother, I fight against my cousin. With my cousin, I fight against my neighbours. With my neighbours, I fight against the people from the next village. With my people from the next village, I fight against my countrymen. With my countrymen, I fight against other Arabs. With other Arabs, I fight against the world.

*Substitute GAA / generic sports fans, etc. as appropriate.

Éomer of Rohan

Saddam delivered substantial autonomy to, especially, the Kurds

Was this before, after or during the disappearances and so on?

mike65

You said it, Eomer. The only reason the Kurds had
autonomy was cos the Yanks and Brits had the "no fly"
policy and that gave the Kurds enough time and space to develope some sort of military of thier own, which the Iraq government knew was, combined with the US Airpower, enough to make it worth keeping thier distance...

Mike.

Éomer of Rohan

Yeah I thought it was the no-fly zone that gave the kurds their autonomy - I remember watching them on the news complaining at the US invasion since they feared a Turkish encroachment, using the invasion as an excuse. Anyway, maybe he doesn't mean what we are thinking of - hence my question.

Victor

Originally posted by mike65
You said it, Eomer. The only reason the Kurds had
autonomy was cos the Yanks and Brits had the "no fly"
policy and that gave the Kurds enough time and space to develope some sort of military of thier own, which the Iraq government knew was, combined with the US Airpower, enough to make it worth keeping thier distance...

Saddam did a deal with one group of Kurds, giving them some autonomy, but keeping certain controls. His policy was having some of lots is better than all of little.

Éomer of Rohan

Saddam did a deal with one group of Kurds, giving them some autonomy, but keeping certain controls. His policy was having some of lots is better than all of little

Just goes to show that Macchiavelli, he wasn't - had he been smart, he'd have a done a good deal with all the Kurds and maybe saved himself a second invasion - especially had he had the support of the Kurds by these deals.