mandatory id cards

solice

the nazis had them, the communists had them and now bertie wants them. what is happening to liberal ireland. the introduction of mandatory id cards for everyone that goes into a pub under the age of 23 is shamefull.

1. it aint going to solve the problem of underage drinking in this country. the vast majority of U18s in this country dont go drinking in pubs, they go gatting or bushing.

2. im 19, i am entitled to go into a pub and have a drink. i carry id with me anyway, what happens if i leave my mandatory card of enslavement at home.

3. to prevent the few U18s that do go to the pub and drink, impose harsher and more strict punishments on the landlord. after all he is the one supplying the demand.

i dont like the idea and i will not carry that card.

bonkey

Originally posted by solice
the nazis had them, the communists had them and now bertie wants them.

Those damned Nazis and communists. They breathed air and ate food and drank liquids as well, so they must all be bad ideas too.

The introduction of mandatory id cards for everyone that goes into a pub under the age of 23 is shamefull.

No, its not. It removes the last vestiges of an excuse which publicans may use when caught serving under-age drinkers.

1. it aint going to solve the problem of underage drinking in this country. the vast majority of U18s in this country dont go drinking in pubs, they go gatting or bushing.

Well, since the problem can't be solved, why bother trying to alleviate the symptoms. Hell - there's no crime we problem can fully solve so I guess we should just disband the police force and make everything legal.

2. im 19, i am entitled to go into a pub and have a drink. i carry id with me anyway, what happens if i leave my mandatory card of enslavement at home.

Same as will happen if you go to said bar and leave your mandatory cash or plastic of payment at home. You wont get served. (Yes, I realise you can borrow money, but the point stands. How often do you forget to bring money when you are heading out somewhere you will need it?)

3. to prevent the few U18s that do go to the pub and drink, impose harsher and more strict punishments on the landlord. after all he is the one supplying the demand.

How will that make it better? All that will happen is that every single publican and landlord will be forced to impose their own personal identification standards.

Then you have a problem that whats good enough for pub B isnt good enough for pub B.

Sooner or later, this will lead to legal issues, where someone will claim discrimination given that they have a legal right to be in the pub, there is no legal responsibilty on them to carry identification, and the landlord is running a public licence which prevents him from denying entry on just grounds.

It also settles the question of what constitutes a "valid" identification.

i dont like the idea and i will not carry that card.

Thats your right, but don't expect to get served in pubs until you're over 23 if and when this becomes law then.

jc

Sparks

I dunno bonkey - it sounds reasonable... but it also sounds like the thin edge of a wedge...

solice

Those damned Nazis and communists. They breathed air and ate food and drank liquids as well, so they must all be bad ideas too.

funny, i actually laughed out loud at that one.

Well, since the problem can't be solved, why bother trying to alleviate the symptoms. Hell - there's no crime we problem can fully solve so I guess we should just disband the police force and make everything legal.

im not saying dont solve the problem, i am saying that doing this is the wrong idea.

How will that make it better? All that will happen is that every single publican and landlord will be forced to impose their own personal identification standards.

everyone carries id, granted different forms exist from drivers licience to passport to college id etc.
are you saying that these so then become invalid and useless. this surely calls into the validity of all current id. stopped by the guards and you are asked to show your licence, but why should they accept it if jonny the local bar man doesnt. stopped at customs coming in from abroad, produce a passport, if its not acceptable at your local than why should customs accept it.
i realise that carrying your passport with you around town would be stupid but the point still stands.

Thats your right, but don't expect to get served in pubs until you're over 23 if and when this becomes law then

and if i am 23, and i get asked for my card of enslavement but i dont have it, what happens then. i produce another form of id that says i am 23 and then i get served. hhmmmm, does that seem peculiar to you or is it just plain hipocracy.

yes thats right, its hipocracy.

It also settles the question of what constitutes a "valid" identification.

valid id is anything that is produced from a reputable source that has someones full name, age, date of birth, address and picture.

Éomer of Rohan

im not saying dont solve the problem, i am saying that doing this is the wrong idea.

Well then what would you suggest? I personally think that underage drinking, to a certain extent would be ok - I disagree with the 18 age limit - BUT I would say that even in this case, ID cards would be necessary - in fact I would go one step further; cards that record how much drink you buy should be necessary for under 18's that way we can ensure they don't get too much alcohol; we can regulate what they do get and we still have the police walking around ensuring there is no loitering, still have the education programs encouraging young people to be responsible, we remove the novelty value and we can strictly enforce age-limits for these cards would be required in pubs and off-licenses unless proper ID could be shown; in which case there wouldn't be a bother how much you drink since you should be responsible. Supposedly. Ah hell just introduce the damn things right across the nation. And before I get accused of being the traditional commie big brother, I am very much for people's liberty, but sometimes it just seems as though people are deliberately irresponsible.

Victor

Perhaps it is time for the thin edge of the wedge to be inserted. I think there is a general requirement for a basic national ID. You can get away with anything in this country , all too easily.

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
cards that record how much drink you buy should be necessary for under 18's that way we can ensure they don't get too much alcohol

Are you advocating under-18s buying as much drink as they want as long as it is recorded?

Sparks

Perhaps it is time for the thin edge of the wedge to be inserted. I think there is a general requirement for a basic national ID. You can get away with anything in this country , all too easily.

This is like the "lift the sanctions" argument - I agree with the idea, but not the timing.
I've no problem with accountability - but not selective accountability. And until you can prove to me that it is absolutely impossible for a politician or a guard or some other person in a position of power to "get away with" things as a result of this mandatory ID, then I'll oppose it tooth and nail. I have no desire to tie myself to a totalitarian enforcement mechanism without accompanying libertarian political and social systems.

Are you advocating under-18s buying as much drink as they want as long as it is recorded?

Didn't his last sentence make any sense to you?

sanvean

Originally posted by Victor
Are you advocating under-18s buying as much drink as they want as long as it is recorded?

I'm guessing he's suggesting that, by recording it, they could put a limit on it. Don't know how that would work, though, as there would be many ways to get around it (bringing out a friend who doesn't drink, for example, and getting him to buy you your extra ones, for example).

also, a question (i think it might have already been asked): I'm 24, but look a hell of a lot younger (two days before I turned 24, I was carded when I tried to buy cigarettes ... oh the shame). So, what the hell do I do?

Moriarty

Ireland should have a compulsory ID card policy for all citizens, but i can see the privacy groups getting hot under the collar at the idea.

Captain Trips

Originally posted by bonkey

No, its not. It removes the last vestiges of an excuse which publicans may use when caught serving under-age drinkers.

There are already plenty of ID cards around. Why isn't a Passport of driver's license (provisional or full) good enough?

Sooner or later, this will lead to legal issues, where someone will claim discrimination given that they have a legal right to be in the pub, there is no legal responsibilty on them to carry identification, and the landlord is running a public licence which prevents him from denying entry on just grounds.

In this regard, I think such people should be told to not be such whining maggots. It's sue this and discriminate that every god damn day. Make it a legal responsibility to carry ID if you go drinking. If you are causing hassle in a bar, you can be asked to produce ID - and give the publican the authority to do so (either in the bar or at the door before going in).

No ID, no beer. It works - no passport, no flight. No drivers license, no car driving. Use one of those.

----

It is stupid to try and simply make new laws without basis that old ones were wrong. Plenty of countries get by with 18-years as the age required. In Ireland however, parent's do not wish to take responsibility for their own lack of interest in teaching kids how to drink properly. Kids who are 18 do not want to take responsibility for ending up in casualty off their skulls.


Irish people have been drinking excessively and fighting for years. In fact, to shock and awe everyone, the whole ****ing EU has.

Nothing has changed, but these days people want to blame someone else. I am all for 24 hour opening times, reduced restrictions on licensing and owners being entitled to have neat dress/over 23's whatever.

And most importantly - charging those ****s who end up in A/E having started fights, etc., for the costs. And maybe require that parents and the child involved attend rehab/counselling. Enforce that by law.

The majority are junior <18 years members of society. Over administration and new IDs are unnecessary. A kick up the ass is not.

---

Maybe we should look at the justice system instead. The laws are there, but people are getting away scot free. Use what we have or soon enough we'll end up with these:
http://www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/cb_headline.cgi?&story_file=bw.051303/231335624&directory=/google&header_file=header.htm&footer_file=
I don't want my freedom impinged because it suits misguided authorities to punish us all because it's more economical for us all to live in one big prison than to put those that deserve it into the ones we already have.

Éomer of Rohan

Are you advocating under-18s buying as much drink as they want as long as it is recorded?

Yes, recorded and within limits, yes I am. Do you not remember being young or did you not drink?

rez

gatting or bushing!! lol must be crazy terms for knacker drinking but yeah your right I barely stepped foot in a pub the other side of 18...

It does seem a bit stupid...everyone under 24. I'm 24 but do you think it'll be ok if I tell that to a barman? It'll mean everyone under 30 will end up having to carry them cos if your only 24 or 25 he might think you were under etc. etc.

And still the drinking and fighting will continue.

I can't see how legal criminal justice measures are going to solve what is fundamentally a social problem.

FIYAH BUN!!

Victor

Originally posted by Captain Trips
No ID, no beer.

Why not apply this to everyone?

Meh

Are there actually hard statistics that show that the majority of street violence is caused by underage drinkers, or is this just a kneejerk response to placate the middle-aged Sunday Indo readers?

Captain Trips

Originally posted by Victor
Why not apply this to everyone?

I'd agree. It works in the US. Why do we need a *new* one is what I don't like. It doesn't make sense if a form of ID is acceptable to the police than why not a bar?

Perhaps the problem is that the landlords are, by and large, either greedy or trying to recoup costs in buying licenses (costing vast amounts). They *need* the money that young people bring in.

Sparks

I'm still trying to figure out how a mandatory ID card system is supposed to be worthwhile in our country, given it's inherently corrupt nature.

Moriarty

Originally posted by Sparks
I'm still trying to figure out how a mandatory ID card system is supposed to be worthwhile in our country, given it's inherently corrupt nature.

How is a mandatory ID card system inherently corrupt?

bonkey

Originally posted by solice
everyone carries id, granted different forms exist from drivers licience to passport to college id etc.
are you saying that these so then become invalid and useless.

Yes and No.

I do not believe a bartender should be obliged to be aware of every type of ID produced by educational bodies, authoritative bodies, etc. etc. etc. in the nation, but unless that is the case, then allowing the broad spectrum of IDs is a pointless exercise.

I would have no issue with the suggestion that passports or drivers licences (containing picture, DOB, and so on) should remain valid, but the simple truth is that these are for specific purposes, and it is stupid in the extreme to require someone to purchase a drivers licence if they dont drive, or a passport if they dont go abroad, simply so that they can get served down the pub.

valid id is anything that is produced from a reputable source that has someones full name, age, date of birth, address and picture.

I think you'll find that legally, that is not the case. IIRC, in Ireland, for proof of identity (technically ID) it is enough to have a stamped (i.e. been through the post) envelope addressed to yourself. And therein lies the problem.

As to all of these "thin edge of the wedge" arguments...sorry...I dont buy it. If every single change in our lives was viewed as the first step on a slippery slope (and therefore to be avoided), we'd never have made it out of the caves. Hell, we'd never have made it into them.

Yes, this proposal should be examined to see what scope for abuse might exist within it, but other than that, I would say that we should save our Big Brother Consipiracies until a case presents itself where they are actually being implemented.

jc

Mighty_Mouse

We already have the identification - -- - its the 'age card' or something.

Mandatory cards are a crap idea. I'm 22. If a publican asks me for ID, I didnt bother bringing it with me ................then home I go.

I think the previous point that ppl dont forget to bring pass machine cards, or money or their mobile phone . Cause they have to have these things.

Over 18? Proove it - you HAVE to have the national I.D, Passport or driving licence or go home for it.

Introducing mandatory I.Ds is too draconian 4 my liking.

Why not take the american ideal. The penalties for the publican are extreme. Shut down the bar for a night or two. Fines, etc

Once that was enforced in ireland, watch the publicans sort out the situation in a jiffy!!

Ok you can shout about the fact that americans dont legally drink until 21 , hence there older, wiser, increaserd tolerance.

But the fact of the matter is , you will get served Nowhere in america under 30 without ID.

ID = beer

whats the problem.

Finally , undercover cops to be allowed enforce closing time , underage etc

---

now thats the direction to be heading.

Sparks

How is a mandatory ID card system inherently corrupt?

I actually meant that our country is inherently corrupt. Mind you, introduce a mandatory ID card system here and it would get corrupted in pretty short order too.

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
I think you'll find that legally, that is not the case. IIRC, in Ireland, for proof of identity (technically ID) it is enough to have a stamped (i.e. been through the post) envelope addressed to yourself. And therein lies the problem.[/B]

In such a case, the envelope is evidence, not proof beyond all doubt. One lawyer can provide his proof, another can offer his proof against the first's proof.

proof ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prf)
n.
The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

Law. The result or effect of evidence; the establishment or denial of a fact by evidence.

bonkey

Originally posted by Victor
In such a case, the envelope is evidence, not proof beyond all doubt.

As would be an ID card surely. It is still only evidence, as the possibility that it is forged will always exist.

jc

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
As would be an ID card surely. It is still only evidence, as the possibility that it is forged will always exist.

Exactly, but by having say photo, date of birth, tamper-proofing etc. on it, it becomes much better evidence.

Thorbar

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Ok you can shout about the fact that americans dont legally drink until 21 , hence there older, wiser, increaserd tolerance.

I'm taking it you've never been out drinking in America? They're a pack of bloody louts but they're good fun all the same.

Personally I don't really agree with bringing in this ID because I remember what a pain in the arse it was drinking out in the wet in bloody fields. I'd have been a lot safer if I was inside in a pub having a few quiet ones with my mates instead of running around a like a lunatic on cider. I say reduce the drinking limit to 16!

solice

enfoce harsher punishments on landlords that allow underage drinking, they will quickly begin to realise that having the little s**ts in the bar would not be cost effective.

as for introducing cards that monitor how much ppl drink i think that that is a bit extreme, i mean that is way beyond the call of reason. you also said that it was ok for young ppl to drink. hmmm, dont think so.

this is not a big brother conspiracy, there are ppl watching us but nine times out of ten its the bloody nosey neighbours. the introduction of enslavment cards is a violation of civil liberties. (im not a hippy, quite conservative actually but this disgusts me).

could someone please tell me what the poor 24 year old who forgot his enslavement card is suppossed to do while the little 18 year old celebrates his birthday while becoming completely intoxicated and has to go to a&e.

solice

ok a little off the mark and all but im i the only person here that didnt start drinking till i turned 18 and it was my dad who bought me my first drink

Victor

I didn't drink until I was 22.

Lemming

I think the N.Americans have the right idea.

Card pretty much everyone. They produce ID [1]. Wayhay. Police come checking, the establishment can turn around and say "We asked, they produced".

Then the police turn to owner of faked ID and say "Right sonny .. lets have a look at this ID of yours ...." and you are well and truly f*cked.

At any rate, it forces everyone involved to be responsible for their own actions without having to incur the costs of ANOTHER ID system for the bouncers to say "sorry - this is fake" whilst the bloody thing has an official government hologram/stamp on it.


[1] - ID that isn't blatantly fake

Éomer of Rohan

as for introducing cards that monitor how much ppl drink i think that that is a bit extreme, i mean that is way beyond the call of reason. you also said that it was ok for young ppl to drink. hmmm, dont think so

Why not?
I began drinking properly about 17 - when I was underage. I never drank heavily and was never pissed; I liked getting mildly tipsy as it helped me to enjoy the night; socialising in a bar not being something I always enjoy. I do know however that many underage drinkers go out and get pissed just for the sake of it, therefore, if there is a way we can regulate it, we should do so. Underage drinking - from about 16+ poses no real health risk and it is certainly going to happen anyway; this way you would remove a lot of drunken loitering such as I see in my home town. Moreover, if we have an overall limit then adults will be less likely to buy drinks for young people given that it may at some stage that night, prevent them from having a drink themselves. I would view this as the more socially responsible attitude given the situation of rampant youth related drinking problems in NI.

Captain Trips

And of course soon enough, we would have interventional action on people who, for example, exceed a weekly allowance. They might be forced to seek counselling, etc., and that might unfoundedly mar future jobs, etc., .

I believe in proper education by parents and people not being such a bunch of pussies trying to blame others (and I blame the parents of the 14 year olds, etc., ), the vintner's federation, the health service, the government. You name, there'll be someone saying they are at fault - anyone but themselves.

So what do you do? I don't agree with removing rational choice and the possibility to improve by striving personally should be replaced with a totalitarian system.

What do think, Beta Minus?

Imposter

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
We already have the identification - -- - its the 'age card' or something.

Over 18? Proove it - you HAVE to have the national I.D, Passport or driving licence or go home for it.

Introducing mandatory I.Ds is too draconian 4 my liking.

Only people under 20 or so have ever bothered with these. Plus they are easily faked.

As i've mentioned in a thread in humanities I've seen friends of mine refused with Driving Licences and heard of others refused from pubs with passports!

Introducing mandatory ID's should be compulsory. Not only going ot the pub but walking down the street. If you are alone and something happens to you then people can easily check where you live etc. Also if you are up to no good the guards can ask you for this ID which you SHOULD have. If you don't then get arrested, you won't forget it next time especially if you were in the right. Also in pubs everyone should be made produce it.

Should you have a fake one and a pub is checked, you must produce it and then you are caught and should be jailed or heavily fined. Tourists should be made known about the law and their passports should be valid.

The only problem with such a system is the thought of actually trying to get something like this implemented in Ireland especially as the Guards will have to be heavily involved.

As for objections from people about losing their privacy, surely it would have the effect of making things better for those that are law abiding out there. Obviously those that break the law will have objections!