mandatory id cards

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Sparks

dave,
How?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Sparks

dave,
So to counter fraud, you're proposing another piece of paper (or plastic)? And there's absolutely no other way to counter it?

Captain Trips

It would be easy to computerise the system of social welfare. A lot easier and cheaper than a new card. Hell, we *already* have social security/welfare cards with our name and PPS number. Why not have bouncers at nightclubs scan those to see if you're paying enough PAYE to get in. Actually, make all nightclubs government run and have police at the doors. That would solve all the problems.

vasch_ro

Originally posted by Victor
Garda: "Eh Paddy, how do you use this compute thing?"

yes I am thinking to myself this person has definately gone a long way to research this particular nugget of information,
the word stereotype springs to mind

Sparks

In fairness, the gardai I have known, while reasonable people, are not any real threat to Carol Vorderman's career as a MENSA spokesperson... and the stereotype arises from the lack of enthuaisism that tends to be the face of the average garda that members of the great unwashed meet on a day-to-day basis.

Éomer of Rohan

Something underlying the drift of this thread is where does one draw the line between personal freedoms and personal responsibility and how far you can be trusted to be responsible.

Take ID cards, as we have been doing;

The idea of encoding cards with how much has been drunk in a given space of time, to be displayed at all points of sale of alcohol in order to legislate and impose a national drinking limit is a good one; it deals with alcohol related problems quite neatly. For those such as state registered drunkards, there would obviously be facilities for treatment and so on, just as there are now.

However, at the same time, we have suggestions for all sorts of cards which may be combined with this particular card. A national ID card with computer chips to watch your movements and so on, is in my opinion, ridiculous BUT lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. How many cards do you all carry for ID purposes down there? In the UK we have driving licenses, Passports and now a voting ID card (no idea why this was introduced but it seems too few people had either of the other forms of photographic ID), so we don't have that many forms of ID - and two of those are quite expensive. A new card such as the one I proposed at the start of this thread should be cheap but still have the features suggested and so I think (esp in the North where there are serious drinking problems) it would cut down drastically on the amount of alcohol consumed.

Sparks

And how long before some garda or civil servant makes a little on the side by giving access to alcohol consumption records to journalists? You can see the Sunday Worst headlines now ...
"DOCTOR IN SHOCK ALCOHOLIC BINGE! WOULD YOU TRUST HIM TO CUT YOU OPEN????"
And if the doctor in question had gone and gotten blotto during his/her undergrad days, well, it's in the public's interest to know, right?
Or does someone think that that would never happen?

Éomer of Rohan

Sparks, would you deny that the public has a right to know if a certain important member of society such as a doctor has a problem drinking? What is more, the point of this card is to limit alcohol consumption - therefore removing 'problems' with excess consumption and preventing such tabloid-like journalism. If however, you think that there is still room for branding 'excess consumption' on the upper ranges whatever limit the government would theoretically impose, then I would say this, I don't think the tabloids would be that interested given the number of people (especially in Uni) who consume far more than the requisite 20 units a week.

Sparks

Eomar,
If they're drinking on duty, nope. The public at large hasn't any need for that. There's a genuine need for treatment and for that doctor to be professionally censured.
Besides, I though it was obvious from my post that the "binge" would have taken place in his/her undergrad days...

What is more, the point of this card is to limit alcohol consumption - therefore removing 'problems' with excess consumption and preventing such tabloid-like journalism.

I'd consider my alcohol consumption level to be personal medical data and I'd be damn uncomfortable with the government or anyone bar my personal doctor monitoring it.

I don't think the tabloids would be that interested

Until someone who had a binge or two in college (ie. everyone bar the pledgers) runs for office...

I mean, what's next? the government getting to monitor any vaccinations you take, or any STDs you get treated for, or if your partner has an abortion, or what about any surgery you have?

Éomer of Rohan

I mean, what's next? the government getting to monitor any vaccinations you take, or any STDs you get treated for, or if your partner has an abortion, or what about any surgery you have?

All these are on records that the government can access if need be, are they not?

I'd consider my alcohol consumption level to be personal medical data and I'd be damn uncomfortable with the government or anyone bar my personal doctor monitoring it.

Do you consider yourself a responsible drinker? I consider myself a responsible drinker but consider the many who aren't and whose whole purpose in going out is to get pissed out of their skulls - and then think, in immediate terms, how bad this is for their health and how dangerous this can be not just to themselves but to others as well. Tipsy is fine but outright drunk (while not at Uni LOL) is just darnright unpleasent. Would you be unwilling to allow a record to be kept - even under the same sort of confidentiality as medical records - in order that many other people might benefit?

Until someone who had a binge or two in college (ie. everyone bar the pledgers) runs for office...

Well then the aim of the state and the more responsible press should be to assure the public that the people for whom they vote are presently sound of judgement in that respect and so on.

Victor

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
All these are on records that the government can access if need be, are they not?

No. Most medical information is held quite separately. Unless you have a medical card, the government / health agencies have very little idea if you go to a GP.

Éomer of Rohan

At the very least, vaccinations are accessible; the Education and Library Boards up here have access to those.

Sparks

All these are on records that the government can access if need be, are they not?

No, they're not. Vaccinations are, as you pointed out, because that's a state-organised program. But surgeries? Medical details? Not only are those not available, doctor-patient privilege covers those details, they can't be ethically divulged without your permission except in certain, very specific cases - normally those highly contagious diseases that impact on public health.

Do you consider yourself a responsible drinker?

I'm about one step short of a teetotaller.

consider the many who aren't and whose whole purpose in going out is to get pissed out of their skulls - and then think, in immediate terms, how bad this is for their health

That's their choice, so long as they're old enough. If it doesn't impact on anyone else's lives, the state has no right to interfere. Alcohol is legal, remember.

and how dangerous this can be not just to themselves but to others as well.

Cases where that danger is proven (assault while under the influence, drunk driving, and so forth) are all covered by existing legislation.

Would you be unwilling to allow a record to be kept

Any violations of the law regarding conduct while under the influence is kept on record, by the gardai...

Well then the aim of the state and the more responsible press should be to assure the public that the people for whom they vote are presently sound of judgement in that respect and so on.

How are you going to legislate for that, without getting us to where we are now, where everyone can know that a politician is ripping us off but noone can say a damn thing without documented evidence? (How else do you think the Squire stayed out of the papers for so long?)

Éomer of Rohan

That's their choice, so long as they're old enough. If it doesn't impact on anyone else's lives, the state has no right to interfere. Alcohol is legal, remember

So was opium at one point.

Anyway, I will leave it at that and agree to differ - my bed is calling lol.

Captain Trips

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
All these are on records that the government can access if need be, are they not?

Should the need arise, all data could theoretically become available (say, in serious assault, etc., ). But I feel no urge to carry my personal information on my sleeve, as you ask.

Believe that the government or *anyone else* for that matter has your best interests at heart and you are IMHO quite naive.

Has banning guns stopped criminals? No. Has making drugs illegal stopped people getting them? No. Will making us all law-abiders carry ID papers, etc., stop the small few from acting like pissheads like they do now? No.

Again, I am asking: who does this benefit. It doesn't benefit me, that's for sure. How about doing this mandatory ID thing for people arrested for drunk and disorderly only? That would mean that the rest of the law abiding citizens can live in relative freedom but that someone who is off their skull gets a drink quota. This is especially relevant as we see a lot of these teenage thugs getting let off or people not being given jail time when they should.

It would be better than us all being presumed guilty and tarring us all with the same limits when quite obviously some people (99%+) can avoid law involvement when drinking.

seamus

Mandatory ID is a touchy issue with half of the population. Chances are, if it was brought in, there'd be complaints for a while, and then everything would settle down.

The Garda ID is a good idea, but as usual, badly implemented. Its good points - It costs €5, no-one refuses it, and it's not easy to copy (cheaply)
Its bad points - You have to go to a Garda Station to have it approved Passport-style with stamps and birth certs. Then it takes about 4 weeks to get to you. And it's been badly advertised.

If they had a Garda with a machine, and a helper, in different clubs each week, there could be massive uptake of it. Someone presents a Driving Licence, Passport, or Combo or birth cert/Student ID etc, the Garda double-checks and approves it, the helper takes a photo, and prints out a card on the spot. Such a machine is also available in each Garda Station, and only standard state ID is required.

Meanwhile, the Goverment starts a huge drive with the publicans to encourage use/promotion of age cards, and to card everyone entering their premises. And people go around bars giving out flyers that allow people to avail of free Age Cards, and tell them how to get them, etc.

Hey presto, problem solved, no need for Mandatory I.D.

:rolleyes:

Nope. That would cost too much. Mandatory I.D.'s however, could be priced at €20 a pop, and the Goverment makes €20 million overnight. Of course, the card would have to be renewed every year for no reason too.

:rolleyes:

daveirl

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Jaeger

Originally posted by solice
the introduction of mandatory id cards for everyone that goes into a pub under the age of 23 is shamefull.

Not really. If you were capable of seeing any other perspective other than your own, you might see that.

Originally posted by solice
1. it aint going to solve the problem of underage drinking in this country. the vast majority of U18s in this country dont go drinking in pubs, they go gatting or bushing.

It's merely one step in fighting it. And yeah it would* work.

Originally posted by solice
2. im 19, i am entitled to go into a pub and have a drink. i carry id with me anyway, what happens if i leave my mandatory card of enslavement at home.

If you look the part, you'll be served/admitted to the nightclub. If you look even remotely under age then you'll be told to get lost. As anyone underage should be.

Originally posted by solice
3. to prevent the few U18s that do go to the pub and drink, impose harsher and more strict punishments on the landlord. after all he is the one supplying the demand.

This entire statement is unbelieveable moronic. So the publican gets shafted just because little tossers come in and get overage people to buy it for them?

Originally posted by solice
i dont like the idea and i will not carry that card.

Hf knacker drinking until you look overage then.


Honestly, do you have any idea of the laws concerning underage drinking at the moment?

Here's one:

A 15 year old is allowed into a pub after 7, as he is accompanied by his parents. So the dad tries to buy the kid a pint.

Situation 1: The kid is seen drinking in the pub and the gardaí are notified. Pub closed. And for what? So some little prick can get 1 pint? Even though the publican wasn't aware where the drink was going? This really becomes an issue if the pub is pretty crowded.

Situation 2: The dad is refuses on the basis that the publican knows he's trying to buy drink for a minor. The dad of course, is outraged as the publican has not only refused him drink, but has also highlighted his irresponsibility by trying to a) break the law by buying for a minor and b) putting the publican's business at risk by means of deception. Of course, the father can now bring the publican to court under the Equal <something> act as evidenced recently in Dublin.


Personally, noone under the age of 18 should be allowed in pubs past 8. None. With or without their parents.

Sparks

Jaegar,

Not really. If you were capable of seeing any other perspective other than your own, you might see that.

I wouldn't need one of McDowell's cards, and I think it's pretty ****ty to blame the problems caused by a minority on everyone under an age limit. Or do you think that alcoholism is something you grow out of?

silly hypothetical situation

Situation one doesn't close the pub, it gets the father in trouble for giving alcohol to a minor. It doesn't matter if it's his own child - you're not allowed beat your children either you know.
Situation two is where the father has a right to be angry for being discriminated against.

It may sound odd that you can't prevent a crime before it happens, but that's life.

Now, far more likely is situation 3:
Father buys a pint, publican suspects it's for the kid, publican watches kid, sees kid take drink, wanders over and tells them to knock it off or they're barred. Fully within his rights to do so, and he's not infringed on anyone else's rights either.

noone under the age of 18 should be allowed in pubs past 8. None. With or without their parents.

And children should be seen and not heard, and women should be barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen?

Éomer of Rohan

noone under the age of 18 should be allowed in pubs past 8. None. With or without their parents

That is ridiculous, nor is it even practical. Think of all the great football matches on Sky! My father used to take me down to the bar with him and we'd sit together, him with his pint, me with mine (of coke:D ) and watch the football together since we didn't have sky at home.
Furthermore, pursuant to monitoring alcohol consumption, I think it should be made legal from 16+ - it practically is de facto legal up here anyway - if the police catch you they take whatever you have left and drive on. At least if it is legal from 16, parents have a chance to break their own children in, instilling a sense of responsibility vis a vis drinking. Since the age limit is 18, people do it under age, and when people are drinking under age, they do it well away from parental control.

solice

Hf knacker drinking until you look overage then

im 19, i never went gatting or bushing, didnt start drinking till i turned 18 and im not going to start now. i am entitled to enter a pub at my will, as long as i show decorum decency and act in a responsiible way nobody has the right to tell me to leave.

lets waste more money on an id scheme that wont work. U18s will borrow cards from friends and family, people who look like them. its happeniong now, whhat makes you think that this will stop with this new id. it didnt stop with the garda age card.

If you look the part, you'll be served/admitted to the nightclub. If you look even remotely under age then you'll be told to get lost. As anyone underage should be.

im going to be petty now cos you were. just because im young and i look young, are you saying that i should not be allowed in to a pub even though im 19 and have always acted responsibly. its not my fault i have been graced with youthfull good looks.

This entire statement is unbelieveable moronic. So the publican gets shafted just because little tossers come in and get overage people to buy it for them?

this is a culture thing, people see no fault in buying alcohol for U18s and this is so unbelievably shamefull and disgusting that if act at the source and cut off the supply we will fix the problem. irelands culture must change and change soon.
as for this being a moronic statement, this would imply that you think serving U18s is an acceptable thing to do.

Honestly, do you have any idea of the laws concerning underage drinking at the moment?

yes i do.

Imposter

Originally posted by solice
lets waste more money on an id scheme that wont work. U18s will borrow cards from friends and family, people who look like them. its happeniong now, whhat makes you think that this will stop with this new id. it didnt stop with the garda age card.

IMO the system being proposed at the moment won't work as I feel bouncers and publicans will be petty about it when someone who claims to be 24 (or whatever age is outside the 'rules') doesn't look as old as they say. This card is intended to stop people under 18 getting drink and in fairness I would say anyone who is 24 must look more than 18.

As for taking cards from friends nad family all this needs is rergular garda spot checks where id's are verifed against the computer system. Someone who has a fake card might be a bit hesitant to produce it and this would reduce this practice.

As for the garda age card that was a waste of time/money and anything else you care to mention. Only those under 20 had them and some places were refusing entry to people unless A) the bouncers knew you or b) you had a garda id. (See my other rants about this in humanities!)

bonkey

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
That is ridiculous, nor is it even practical. Think of all the great football matches on Sky!

After 8pm? That many???

Originally posted by Solice

people see no fault in buying alcohol for U18s and this is so unbelievably shamefull and disgusting that if act at the source and cut off the supply we will fix the problem

Dead right. Punish the shop-keeper / publican for selling alcohol to someone he's legally obliged to. Funnily, wasnt it you protesting that as a 19-year-old you have all these rights and no-one can take them off you?

What will you do if a publican says "sorry son, I'm afraid you might give it to those lads sitting near you", or a shop-keeper says "sorry sir, can't buy that off-licence, there's young kids outside and you might be buying it for them".

Will you insist your rights still cant be taken off you, or will you accept that your "solution" is going to cause the denial of what you see as your "rights" just as much as carrying this card will?

"Hello Mr publican. I swear I'm over 18, which means that you have to serve me - Its my right and you can't refuse me. No - no ID. Dont believe in that unworkable system. Oh - If I'm lying about my age, your pub gets closed. I'll have a pint of Guinness please."

Yeah - great idea. I can see how that will solve the problem.

jc

Éomer of Rohan

After 8pm? That many???

The European ones kick off between 7.45 and 8.20 - and they are the ones everyone would pile into a bar to watch.

Imposter

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
The European ones kick off between 7.45 and 8.20 - and they are the ones everyone would pile into a bar to watch.

I'm sure you'll correct me if i'm wrong but in Ireland TV3 have the rights for tuesday and wednesday matches. Ok it's different in the North, the UK and most of Europe but this is about Irish pubs.

Also most pubs ib Ireland don't pubs show any of the other matches and the ones that TV3 show are generally the most popular matches anyway.

Add to this the way Sky are charging more money than just the standard sports package for some matches, and the caosts involved in having Sky sports in the first place and I think you'll find it's the premiership matches that get the biggest draw by a long way.

Éomer of Rohan

I'm sure you'll correct me if i'm wrong but in Ireland TV3 have the rights for tuesday and wednesday matches. Ok it's different in the North, the UK and most of Europe but this is about Irish pubs.

In the North, it is as I have already stated. And this is not simply about Irish pubs; this is an issue that will effect many countries including Northern Ireland.

Sparks

bonkey,
*cough, cough*
*points to his post four posts up*

Now, far more likely is situation 3:
Father buys a pint, publican suspects it's for the kid, publican watches kid, sees kid take drink, wanders over and tells them to knock it off or they're barred. Fully within his rights to do so, and he's not infringed on anyone else's rights either.

Victor

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
In the UK we have driving licenses, Passports and now a voting ID card (no idea why this was introduced but it seems too few people had either of the other forms of photographic ID)

Part of the problem was personation. One address in west Belfast has 18 people on the voting register - it was a small "council" flat.

Originally posted by Captain Trips
Why not have bouncers at nightclubs scan those to see if you're paying enough PAYE to get in.

How about checking the bouncers to see if they are paying PAYE? Making everyone card this card at work could work wonders if you had an revenue enforcement team that could check the likely places that pay under the counter (construction, retail / food / pubs, security, casual labour in factories, agriculture & forestry).