mandatory id cards

Victor

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Furthermore, pursuant to monitoring alcohol consumption, I think it should be made legal from 16+ - it practically is de facto legal up here anyway - if the police catch you they take whatever you have left and drive on. At least if it is legal from 16, parents have a chance to break their own children in, instilling a sense of responsibility vis a vis drinking.

They can do it - at home - restrictions on the consumption of alcohol apply to pubs and public places (child neglect aside).

Guy:Incognito

whats the problem with the cards, lots of other countries do it and no1 has a problem. ur happy to carry a passport but not an id card that is smaller lighter and probably less hassle to relace than a passport. y is a passport not "infringing on ur civil liberties", its because like everything else in this country, if it has been around for lomger than people can remember they assume it must be ok, but if somthing new come along it must be evil or wrong. This bloody country is populated by the biggest bunch of scaremongerers is existance. Its like an over the top episode of the simpsons or somthing. They were afraid of the metric system and we're afraid of everything, go figure

Captain Trips

I wouldn't mind producing ID (even a new one or a more modern driving license which I think would be more apprioriate - or even the EU union-wide ID, I think Italy have it and it's popular), if it meant bouncers could turf out under 23s in an over 23s bar, or whoever and not get sued. Noone seems to be reasonable and the pubs will do what they are told if the laws that are in place (such as not serving plastered drunks - from 187?) were enforced.

I shouldn't *need* to have ID. What's needs to happen is the statutes we already have should be enforced and over adminstration of a problem will not solve it and cost more money. It didn't work for the health service and the increasing expectancies of the public (yes it's true), why would it work for booze and the increasing need for people to get pissed (11.7 litres/year pure alcohol if the stats are correct - way *way* up compared to 1990) (according to the paper).

Mighty_Mouse

Im sorry - just to address a few comments!!

I think the publican should be fully accountable for any underage drinking on his property.

So for example if someone overage buys drink for someone underage? Do I think the publican is responsible? - Yes completely

1. The underage person shouldn't of gotten by the door in the first place. If its in the middle of hte day. The bar-man needs to pay attention to who's getting the drink.

In america, person buying drink would be asked who the second pint is for and could they produce their I.D.

Im sorry but even if you can dream up of a million and one scenarios where underage ppl can get drink in a pub - it still doesnt excuse the publican.

If this is the business he has chosen to run then , he better take the time to make sure he's running it correctly.

A list should be provided to the publicans of accepted ID maby- ie drivers license, passport or Age Card !! Nothing else?

Im sorry but theres no need for another ID.

As for an all inclusive social services, medical card, tax card, rsi, driving licence endorsements - well i wouldn't have a problem with this.

The less administration in governement the better as far as im concerned -


to sum up - the way to tackle underage drinking is the publican. Make him unhappy and by god not one pint will be served to underage ppl.

Underage Knaker drinking- well now thats a matter for the Gardai!! But ive never noticed Dunnes and Super Value asking for ID !!

The way to tackle underage drinking is to tackle the source of drink which is relatively small compared to the consumers of drink.

If teh source is properly policed then the amount of drink getting to the underage group is severly limited !

Victor

Originally posted by Captain Trips
if it meant bouncers could turf out under 23s in an over 23s bar, or whoever and not get sued.

There is only one type of bar in Ireland - over 18s .

Lemming

Originally posted by Victor
There is only one type of bar in Ireland - over 18s .

Indeed. The only time anyone can say "over 21/23/25" is if the establishment in question has the word "club" in it's description (which is by definition 'invitation only')

irishgeo

well an interesting topic this. I dont look my age and get asked for ID in some pubs and not in others and it doesnt bother me. I enjoy my few pints and usually head to a nightclub where i am normally get asked for ID. I usually have my passport as some pubs in galway dont take the drivers licensce and i dont have the black ID.

Where i come from though is a rural area where the publicians cant afford not to sell beer to underage people. 16-17 yrs old when all the rest of the legal drinkers are away working or in college in the bigger towns. And when its there friends working behind the bar i mean its no bother at all to get drink.

Comparsions with the US are rubbish as the US has a far better police force than any other country. I mean my cousin who was 18 at the time was at a house party in the states and there was beer the cops raided the house breathalised everyone and phoned their parents to take them home. My cousin wasnt drinking but other people were and they got in trouble over it.

In regards to tacking. i dont know my blood type and i would not object to the medical info on a card as then people could be saved if the had diabities etc and doctors could read this from a card.it would save lives. Donor information could be also held on this card.

The way i see to solve the problem is more cops and undercover cops in the place. We dont need a new ID but more rules telling clubs what ID they have to take. I mean most places dont let you in anyway unless your stone sober and have your gf with you.

Niteclubs down our way will take in anything because they need the money.

No matter what the govt the problem will still exist.

Éomer of Rohan

Comparsions with the US are rubbish as the US has a far better police force than any other country

What rot! The US police force that shoot black men for not getting out of cars quick enough when they speed? For looking for blakc businessmen to pull over and throw to the ground so they can dirty the man's suit?! I'm sorry but you only have to watch some of the video clips they show on channel five to appreciate that the US police for is FAR from the best. Actually, the present incarnation of the RUC is regarded as one of the best in the world however; which is why my father was in Kosovo helping to train Kosovan police for their independent administration.

I mean my cousin who was 18 at the time was at a house party in the states and there was beer the cops raided the house breathalised everyone and phoned their parents to take them home

I have been to the States (with about 50 friends on a school organised trip) and this didn't happen at any of the house parties we attended - even when we toilet papered other peoples houses (take the toilet roll and throw it over the house and it drapes along the roof - use about 30 toilet rolls ). And if it had, I would have considered it very heavy handed - as it was I was glad the police didn't - just as they don't over here unless there is a complaint filed.

Guy:Incognito

All well and good saying we dont need another id, but the fact of the matter is , nobody i s required to have any of the current ids by law so not everyone has 1. People who dont leave the country dont need a passport, people who dont drive dont need a licence and the garda id is a jke because all u need is a birth cert and €5 so if my 15 year old brother used my birth cert he could get a garda age card saying hes 22.

Captain Trips

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
What rot! The US police force that shoot black men for not getting out of cars quick enough when they speed? For looking for blakc businessmen to pull over and throw to the ground so they can dirty the man's suit?! I'm sorry but you only have to watch some of the video clips they show on channel five to appreciate that the US police for is FAR from the best. Actually, the present incarnation of the RUC is regarded as one of the best in the world however; which is why my father was in Kosovo helping to train Kosovan police for their independent administration.

The video clips are exactly the sort of thing that the TV-watching white viewers want to see. You are seriously saying theat because it's on TV it must be a true representative. What bollocks! That bit in the Mercedes in Men in Black was also a *joke* BTW.

The US police would not work in a place like Kosovo. The US has laws regarding search/seizure, etc., for example, why you can be pissed off your skull with a cop car trailing for 50 miles but if you aren't breaking any law they can't pull you. fair enough; wouldn't work in the RUC police-state dream of the rest of the UN governed countries.

</soapbox>

Éomer of Rohan

That bit in the Mercedes in Men in Black was also a *joke*

Never seen either film FYI.

The video clips are exactly the sort of thing that the TV-watching white viewers want to see. You are seriously saying theat because it's on TV it must be a true representative. What bollocks!

Michael Moore, Bill Bryson, I mean plenty of other sources corroborate the evidence of the TV cameras. And though some may exaggerate, the fact is, this obviously occurs.

The US police would not work in a place like Kosovo

And why the hell not? The US made the mess, maybe they should contribute to returning stability to the place.

The US has laws regarding search/seizure, etc., for example, why you can be pissed off your skull with a cop car trailing for 50 miles but if you aren't breaking any law they can't pull you

Need I point out that by driving pissed out of your skull, you are breaking the law? And thus by a policeman saying that he suspected you of drink driving, there is therefore grounds for pulling you.

fair enough; wouldn't work in the RUC police-state dream of the rest of the UN governed countries

This does not even make sense. Please clarify.

bonkey

Originally posted by Captain Trips
You are seriously saying theat because it's on TV it must be a true representative.

And you're saying what? That because its on TV it can't be true?

Come on....

jc

Captain Trips

No, but since when did TV suddenly become a true representative of society? Sure - I have no doubt that more blacks are arrested and imprisoned in the US for instance (if we are indeed talking about Bowling for Columbine etc., ), but the point was that he made a joke about arresting a white man. It just didn't make for compulsive TV - no car chases or guns. The 80 million fraudster doesn't run.

I have to say that I only usually use TV for watching movies; I get sick of being told what I should be thinking or what is normal for exactly the reason that the show like Cops is there for entertainment of white people. Like the way you have Benson or whatever for black people.

TV is not reality and I can't believe anyone is disputing this!

Lemming

Hmm .. I just thought of something that I think a lot people have overlooked about this new mooted ID.

In order for it to be enforced, it would have to be of the same calibre as a passport or drivers licence. Both of these require you to jump through LOTS of hoops to get.

Now, someone else mentioned that this is a card that you could afford to loose on a night out, unlike a passport or drivers licence further back in this thread. But by default, it would carry the same weight as the passport & drivers licence since it would have to be of the same calibre to be accepted by the publicans. Otherwise, it's going to be no better than your student ID et al. with these people.

So who wants to tell me that loosing one of these little things would NOT be a total pain in the arse?

bonkey

Originally posted by Captain Trips
TV is not reality and I can't believe anyone is disputing this!

Hold on though...what are you saying?

Are you saying that these clips were not of real police? Are you saying that it is real police doing "staged" policework which they then attempt to pass off as reality to ruin their own careers and bring dishonour onto their profession? Or are you saying that - like in the Rodney King case - the fact that the newsies edit a story leaving out some degree of the full and honest truth in favour of a bit of sensationalism somehow means that the entire story is irrelevant?

As I said before, just because we can say "TV is not reality" does not mean that "nothing on TV is real". Some of it is....or do you think that Rodney King wasnt beaten up by police? That famine has never occurred in Ethiopia? That Saddam Hussein was not the leader of Iraq, and he was not deposed by a war initiated by the US? Ive seen all of that stuff on tv at some point, and your argument seems to be that we shouldnt believe a word of it.

The point is that while TV may not produce the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, it can still contain truth. Indeed if we do not accept that, then by logical extension of your criticism, no media of any description is believable or "true", as they all lack objectivity to one degree or another and are hence "not reality" and should be ignored and discounted.

jc

PHB

Well, imo, the passport is for leaving the country, the drivers licence is to prove you are legally allowed to drive, and the garda age card is simply that, an age card.

If they introduced it as the only acceptable ID, and made it mandatory, everyone would carry it in there wallet.
This would result in a huge decrease in underage drinking if this was inforced at the off licence's.
I really dont see the trouble in it, and it would increase safety on our streets.

Sparks

I'd recommend a close look at the Oakland anti-war protest before stating that all US police are consummate professionals. Or any of the day-to-day incidents across the US for that matter.

Captain Trips

Originally posted by bonkey
Hold on though...what are you saying?

Are you saying that these clips were not of real police? Are you saying that it is real police doing "staged" policework which they then attempt to pass off as reality to ruin their own careers and bring dishonour onto their profession? Or are you saying that - like in the Rodney King case - the fact that the newsies edit a story leaving out some degree of the full and honest truth in favour of a bit of sensationalism somehow means that the entire story is irrelevant?

No no - like I said above - it was that the reality that TV presents is always an edited one for the specific purpose of getting you to watch so that they can say to the corps that X-million watch this so they pay to advertise. And the shows are geared to get certain markets watching. Heck, I love those cop shows but as you would know well from the likes indeed of Bowling for Columbine - it's about presenting entertainment, not reality. Or do you really believe that in I'm a celebrity get me out of here that they really were treated that badly. Next up: Celebrities in Prison.

Saddam was leader of Iraq. The US supported his Baath party (or whichever party) in '82. They don't talk much about that - because for exactly the reason that it's not what people want to watch. White couch potatoes want to watch black people getting arrested. They want car chases. Are you one of those people that Moore was referring to - the one's who fear things like black people because all you see on TV is a black man with a gun?

That's the whole goddam PROBLEM with TV. It doesn't represent what is *actually* going on.

Éomer of Rohan

No no - like I said above - it was that the reality that TV presents is always an edited one for the specific purpose of getting you to watch so that they can say to the corps that X-million watch this so they pay to advertise

Rubbish! TV produces, for information purposes exactly what is real; it can change the perception of what is shown but it cannot change the facts. As for advertising, what about the TV corporations that do not allow advertising?

Heck, I love those cop shows but as you would know well from the likes indeed of Bowling for Columbine - it's about presenting entertainment, not reality. Or do you really believe that in I'm a celebrity get me out of here that they really were treated that badly. Next up: Celebrities in Prison

Ironic that you should say that; Russia has just introduced a program that will guarantee the winning prisoner of a singing competition their freedom. Or did the TV company make this up?

Cabaal

Originally posted by Meh
Are there actually hard statistics that show that the majority of street violence is caused by underage drinkers, or is this just a kneejerk response to placate the middle-aged Sunday Indo readers?

Don't know about, but the majority is caused by people drinking to much and thats a fact!

Cabaal

Here's the funny thing..

The VFI ( http://www.vfi.ie ) for years lobbyed the Gov/Garda for a national ID system
The Garda Age Card

So its finally here anfd its all lovely looking etc

But now alot of pubs (there's atleast 3 nightclubs in waterford that do it) WON'T accept it, but there part of the VFI ffs!!

Some will only accept passwords, others will only accept the agecard
The VFI need to crack some skulls on thismatter.
We have a ID Card and now we wana introduce a whole new system, what a waste of money...

PHB

You can't legally refuse the age card, go talk to the guards and sue them

vasch_ro

personally I think an ID card is a great IDea ( ) although it should be for every body not just under 23's and for all whether they be Irish, Romainian, Pavee, whatever

Cabaal

Originally posted by PHB
You can't legally refuse the age card, go talk to the guards and sue them

There's been many clubs in the papers saying its to easy copy etc etc
Merlins in Waterford won't accept AgeCards, where as the niteclub accross thge road (I've heard) will ONLY accept AgeCards

tbh its beyond a joke.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cabaal
There's been many clubs in the papers saying its to easy copy etc etc

Yes, but do they assume legal liability for serving someone underage who has a faked AgeCard, or does the underage person do so?

jc

Lemming

Originally posted by bonkey
Yes, but do they assume legal liability for serving someone underage who has a faked AgeCard, or does the underage person do so?

jc

At that stage jc, the underage person is at fault and culpable. They're carrying falsified documentation.

bonkey

Then I'm not entirely sure what the publican's complaint is, if they are not liable.....

jc

Imposter

Originally posted by Lemming
At that stage jc, the underage person is at fault and culpable. They're carrying falsified documentation.

And who exactly when asked by a Guard for an age card, will produce falsified documentation? Only very stupid individuals.

This is why such an ID needs to be compulsary to carry so that if asked for it you must have it, it cannot be falsified (see below) and you can't claim "oh.. I'm older than the age that needs to carry it".

And before we talk about decent fakes, some other identifier such as a unique number which when entered into a Garda computer (if they learn to use them), which would verify if it's legit, or not, is needed.
This checking can easily be done by radioing back to the station.

And if a person produces ID and it's underage, then that person should be searched on the spot for a false ID and if none is found the publican is then responsible.

Am I missing anything?

Lemming

Originally posted by Imposter

Am I missing anything?

Missing maybe - overlooking perhaps is more appropriate.

Examine the system as it exists in N.America for example.

You're stopped and carded. You produce. Thus the establishment has upheld it's obligation to ensure that nobody underage gets into the premises.

Police come checking. You're id is discovered to be fake. You're f*cked. It's as simple as that.

There's no compulsory ID "this" or anally-retentive "that". You are in possession of a falsified ID. You are screwed. If you were overage, but carrying fake ID, you'd still be screwed. Why's it any different if you're under age?

I REFUSE to have my taxes put into what is nothing more than a PR stunt (and an ill-thought-out one at that) to make some politician and the Vintners look good and morally responsible :rolleyes:

Imposter

Originally posted by Lemming
Police come checking. You're id is discovered to be fake. You're f*cked. It's as simple as that.

There's no compulsory ID "this" or anally-retentive "that". You are in possession of a falsified ID. You are screwed. If you were overage, but carrying fake ID, you'd still be screwed. Why's it any different if you're under age?

That's what i'm saying (or at least meant!). What i meant was that a publican can't turn around and claim that he asked for ID and "oh he showed me an ID and it was as an X (overage) year old". The case being if someone has 2 ID's one legit and the other false, the publican can't use it as an excuse unless the false ID is found.

I REFUSE to have my taxes put into what is nothing more than a PR stunt (and an ill-thought-out one at that) to make some politician and the Vintners look good and morally responsible :rolleyes:

That's why any possibilities for abuses should be addressed before they do anything, and that's not what they're doing. This crap with only those under 23 leaves it open to abuse by publicans imo.