How to start a conspiracy theory, McDowell-style...

Sparks

From the Irish Times:

McDowell refuses to rule out bugging of TDs
By Paul Anderson
Sinn Féin TD, Mr Arthur Morgan, has expressed dismay at the refusal of the Minister for Justice, Mr McDowell, to confirm that Oireachtas members are not having their phones tapped.

In a written reply to Dáil question from the Louth TD, Mr McDowell said it would not be in the public interest to disclose the information.

He said the Interception of Postal Packages and Telecommunications Act 1993 provides for the judicial oversight of the tapping of communications and that a High Court judge has "consistenetly confirmed in reports made available to the Oireachtas the interceptions that have taken place have been in accordance with the Act".

"It is not the practice, and it would be contrary to the public interest, to disclose if an authorisation to intercept has or has not been given in any particular case," Mr McDowell said.

Mr Morgan told ireland.com today that he tabled the question because of continuing revelations about British security forces spying activities.

"After all the revelations of the past week and the exposure of ongoing operations from Britain's dirty tricks department I think the Minister must immediately assure the Irish public that he and his Government aren't up to the same sort of tricks," Mr Morgan said today.

"The answer I received from the Minister for Justice today is both unacceptable and contradictory. It would seem more worthy of some British MoD wordsmith.

"Of course it is in the public's interest to know if their private telephone conversations with their public representatives are being listened to or not.

"What we are dealing with here is often very private and personal matters."

The news comes less than a month after it was revealed that Oireachtas members had their mail opened by the Garda. The matter has been referred to the Dáil Committee on Procedures and Privileges.
© 2003 ireland.com

gandalf

And your opinion on this is exactly what ?

Read the forum rules, if you post an article you have to post your opinion. I expect you to do that or this ends up in the recycle bin.

Gandalf.

davelerave

"The news comes less than a month after it was revealed that Oireachtas members had their mail opened by the Garda"

what's his name?

seriously though i don't think dail members should have their phones tapped as this sytem was abused by haughey in the past,but i'm sure mobiles can circumvent phone taps if needed

Sparks

Gandalf,
This pertained to the ongoing discussion in two threads on this forum where it was being argued that the government could be trusted with an overt means of tracking citizens and a mandatory ID system. The phrase "conspiracy theory" was bandied about in those threads, hence the title of this one. Merge threads if you wish, you're the mod...

gandalf

Sparks believe it or not I don't get a chance to read all the threads on the board so I don't know if there is already another thread with this subject and I don't have time to search for them.

I would know this if you followed the forum rules and posted a link along with a couple of lines with your opinion.

Gandalf.

Sparks

Indeed, my bad.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

davelerave

Originally posted by daveirl
I've seen this posted in a couple of places now and I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what is wrong with it.

What you want the Gardaí to announce who's phone they are tapping? TDs should be treated like any other citizen and not have special exceptions when it comes to survillence if they are suspected of comitting a crime.

sure,if they're under suspicion but tapping of td's phones is open to abuse by gardai and government and people might be wary of dicussing sensitives issues with a td if they thought they could be overheard

Sparks

Garda chief formally asks for evidence of phone-tapping
by Mary Dundon
GARDA Commissioner Pat Byrne formally asked the Law Society yesterday for evidence of alleged phone-tapping in a Dublin solicitor’s firm.
The invitation comes 10 days after the Law Society first wrote Commissioner Byrne on August 18 asking him to investigate these allegations.
Binchy solicitors who represent the Donegal family at the centre of a garda corruption investigation have claimed their phone has been tapped.
But while media reports claimed yesterday that senior garda officers were awaiting evidence from the Law Society about these allegations, no formal request was made for this information until yesterday afternoon.
Asked why it had taken 10 days for the gardaí to formally respond to the Law Society’s complaint a spokesman said:
“I cannot check it out at this late hour because there is no one in the Commissioner’s office, but I will check it out in the morning.”
When claims about this alleged phone tapping broke at the weekend Commissioner Byrne told the press that no telephone interception was officially authorised and that he had no knowledge of any interception.
Law Society director general Ken Murphy confirmed that their president Tony Ensor had received a formal acknowledgement of his August 18 letter to the Commissioner yesterday morning.
A second letter arrived by courier from Commissioner Byrne yesterday afternoon seeking information in relation to the concerns of phone tapping raised by Binchy solicitors.
Mr Murphy said they responded immediately informing the commissioner that Binchy solicitors had all the details and he should contact them directly.
But Mr Murphy stressed that the Law Society will continue to take an active interest in this case because if it will be a major scandal, if it is true.
A spokesman for Binchy solicitors confirmed that they had asked the Law Society to contact the appropriate authorities to investigate their concerns that some of their lawyers were the subject of electronic surveillance.
“This was based on information received from sources known to us to be reliable,” Binchy’s spokesman said.
And they will supply all the necessary evidence to the gardaí once they receive a formal request, their spokesman added.
The gardaí will not be in a position to say whether or not an investigation will be carried out until evidence of this substantial claim is put forward, their spokesman said.

The question is, daveirl, if the Law Society can request an investigation, why can't a legally elected TD (even if he is what I would regard as scum, morally speaking) do the same?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

sceptre

Originally posted by daveirl
I've seen this posted in a couple of places now and I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what is wrong with it.

What you want the Gardaí to announce who's phone they are tapping? TDs should be treated like any other citizen and not have special exceptions when it comes to survillence if they are suspected of comitting a crime.

^what Dave said.

Answering "yes" to the "am I being tapped question" wouldn't do much good in crime detection now would it?

Sparks

Nope. Bit of a difference between tapping a drug dealers phone and not telling him and tapping a TD's phone and not telling him when directly questioned on the matter in the Dail however.

daveirl

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Sparks

Well, one's an elected member of the government, to start with...

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

DadaKopf

This is just great. How are we supposed to keep Irish democracy working when we can't even trust each other? Typical crap we always have to put up with here.

Sparks

No dave, what I mean is that if an elected TD asks a question in government, denying him an answer while giving one to the same question asked by the Law Society is inconsistent.
(I think you'd have a hard time proving that I think TDs should be given some kind of protection from the law!)

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Sparks

daveirl,
It's a bit worrying that - it implies that the gardai can investigate anyone they want, and noone can ever find out. Which implies that should they wish to do so, they can tap your phone and all that is required is one corrupt garda and one corrupt judge.
*looks at Morris tribunal*
*looks at recent case of a judge being charged with possession of child pornography*

Doesn't seem like a big requirement to me

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Sparks

daveirl,
No, it doesn't. Public domain means that everyone can ask and is entiteld to an answer. I'm saying that when you directly question the gardai as to whether or not you are being investigated for a crime, that that's a different story.
Mind you, what happened here was a member of government asking the Minister of Justice whether the phones of government TDs were being tapped - slightly different thing.
I'm not sure how it should best be handled on a personal basis - but refusing to answer a question from the Dail is a rather dangerous line to take, given what's come of things like that in the past.

daveirl

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Sparks

Well, it's messy, but if the alternative is to give corrupt gardai carte blanche to monitor any phone line they want, I guess that's what you'd have to do.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Pep

i dont agree to that

Victor

In the Binchy Solicitors case, the Law Society is representing the solicitors of a family who appear on the face of it to have been wrongfully prosecuted (indeed persecuted) on a massive scale by the Garda.

The only legitimate reason to tap a solicitor's phone is if you believe that solicitor to be participating in or conspiring to commit a crime. Client / solicitor privilege is probably the most important right out there after the right to life, as no right can be vindicated if client / solicitor is seriously compromised.

In fact so serious are the issues about the whole issue that is the base of the matter that the Oireachtas formed a tribunal ... now to subvert a tribunal is tantamount to subverting the Oireachtas.

On the flip side, for a TD to go on what amounts to a fishing trip is a whole different matter. By providing a blind answer, it keeps everyone in the black (and stops them misusing official phones) and means that if it was necessary in the future to tap phones, then they wouldn't have to provide a different answer. each and every legal phone tap needs to have reasonable justification behind it and needs a senior Garda and a senior Judge to authorise it.

Current potential reasons to tap Oireachtas phones.

• Find moles in the Garda who are leaking confidential material to Oireachtas members.
• Monitor IRA / Sinn Féin discussions.
• Monitor Oireachtas members who are leaking confidential material to others (insider trading, etc.).
• Monitor Oireachtas members being investigated by tribunals.
• Monitor any other criminal activities.
• Monitor third parties abusing Oireachtas phones for criminal activities.