Amocom (Cork)

oharej

Wholesale prices of bandwidth in Dublin are much much cheaper than in Cork. Reason is that all "Cork" traffic typically needs to be hauled back via Dublin to get out the "world". At the moment there are primarily just two options to get to Dublin. Hopefully, with introduction of ESBi there will be a third - but thre will always be that additional cost.

slands

Originally posted by Muck
256/256 5Gb Cap 20:1 contention for €72.60 a month is hardly sex on wheels is it?

No, but it is available in Cork, unlike IBB and IrishWISP which only serve (parts!) of Dublin

Stephen...

bk

Originally posted by Muck
256/256 5Gb Cap 20:1 contention for €72.60 a month is hardly sex on wheels is it?

especially with a setup fee of €320.65

All prices VAT inclusive seeing as we are talking Residential.

Irishwisp and IBB have a similar setup charge but come in around the €50 a month for 512/512 and same or lower contention.

Why is Cork so expensive ?

M

Plus IrishWISP have a 12GB cap and IBB have no cap (Amocom == 5GB).

Also Amocom are getting money from the government (in other words our tax money), while I believe IBB and IrishWISP aren't getting any funding.

No disrespect, but Amocom seems overpriced.

I've asked a few internet using friends in Cork (I'm originally from Cork) if they would be interested in Amocom, they all said no way. They are all going for RADSL products, either
IOL Broadband at EUR 50 pm (EUR 100 install) with a 5 GB cap (same as you) and 512k/128k or Netsource for EUR 65 pm with no cap and fixed IP.

Most exchanges in Cork city are DSL enabled, unless you just want to be relegated to the few unlucky people off these exchanges, you better rethink your pricing, and get more in line with IrishWISP and IBB, if these companies can do it, there is no reason you can't (specially with government backing).

spongebob

I am a big fan of the €49.99 a month price point for the home user. I generally push people to any company in their area that delivers in that price point. The speed/contention/cap/excess use policy may vary but what the hell. €49.99 in a country such as Ireland with a primitive late 1990s style Broadband network is good at the moment and deserves my support along with that of every other advocate of widespread BB services in a knowledge based economy.

I think you should have your residential product in there. Your contention / speeds should build around that and compare resaonably to residential DSL which, after all, will be €49.49 for the cheapest but with 128k up and 48:1 contention for 5Gb, I am referring to the chronically vapourific IOL product here.

Given your install charges , which are in line with your WISP competitors elsewhere in Ireland may I add, the overall package in the first 3 months is a pretty indigestible proposition for the home user coming in at €540 up front for install and 3 months service. The customer then needs a router/firewall as well, shall we say €160 for that, to make the Amocom experience a €700 Hit in the first 3 months.

ALL prices VAT inclusive of course, we are referring to the residential user here.

M

dahamsta

I'd just like to add that, with all due respect to John who was both helpful and accomodating, the only reason I chose to evaluate Amocom was because I was one of those aforementioned poor unfortunates unable to get DSL in Cork. That being said, I went through John's pricing plans fairly viciously, and he accepted my feedback very graciously.

I agree with Muck and bk that the products need to be amended, I hope John will try to find a way to try and address this sooner rather than later. We need competition, both in Cork and in Ireland, and although customer service is a factor we weigh very heavily in here, price also counts for a hell of a lot.

If you can't come reasonably close to the opposition on price, you're in trouble; and relying on alternative business - people like me - is not a viable alternative.

adam

oharej

When comparing prices, contention ratio needs to considered. On the home service we offer a 20:1 contention ratio on the 256kbps service. If a home user wishes to have a 512k (synchronous) 40:1 contention ratio at €60pm, it is also available. In fact some of our domestic users are already on that package. I believe the standard RADSL contention is 48:1 - correct?

With respect to government funding, the WLAN Trials tender was a very open process. I believe that for the €11,500 of tax payers money that Amocom secured from the DCMNR, it is pretty good ROI from the Governments perspective. Also, I would suspect that there has been significantly more "per user" investment by the government in assistance to DSL rollout.

As for setup costs excl VAT, comparing with iStream starter taken from last Sunday's Business Post

- istream starter
Connection Fee 165 165
ADSL Ethernet Modem 200 USB 120
€365 €285

- Amocom Resedential Setup fee €265

Following are some advantages previously listed over ADSL
a) Amocom Net offers a synchronous service - same up and down speeds.
b) Wireless delivery => totally independent of phone lines i.e. no line rental (important in some situations where there is not already a phone line)
c) We typically install within days of receipt of contract (provided there is Line of Sight)
d) Greater coverage - we can reach many areas around the city where DSL is not yet available
e) Amocom Net has the ability to deliver up to 8Mbps per subscriber i.e. there will not be a need to change or "upgrade the line" again in couple of years.
f) Can provide (at an additional fee), fixed IP address. This is typically only available at the high end ADSL packages
g) Contention ratios of 20:1 or 40:1 as discussed previously - not sure about Netsource but Eircom's consumer product is 48:1
h) Minimal latency - direct connectivity to internet backbone via NSC.

spongebob

Originally posted by oharej
When comparing prices, contention ratio needs to considered. On the home service we offer a 20:1 contention ratio on the 256kbps service. If a home user wishes to have a 512k (synchronous) 40:1 contention ratio at €60pm, it is also available. In fact some of our domestic users are already on that package. I believe the standard RADSL contention is 48:1 - correct?

Ah C'mon John

1. There is no mention of the 512/512 40:1 on your website
2. I scrupulouly quoted VAT and said so continually, you are continually avoiding the quotation of VAT in your answer

HOME USERS ALL PAY VAT @ 21%

Your €60 is actually €72.60 a month .

Yes, standard RADSL is 48:1 but I did say that.

Your residential entry level is still almost 50% higher per month than your peers. Your peers are IBB and Irishwisp who have a package in at €49.99 or less, that includes VAT.

Why do business users pay another €100 for install by the way?

M

oharej

Again, thanks for the feedback

1) Web site has been updated.
2) Prices quoted in the Business Post were exclusive of VAT so I was simply saving doing the VAT computations. I will admit that when dealing 90% with business users, one tends to think excl VAT, so apologies for that.
3) Our peers in the Cork market are the other operators providing services in this area. As mentioned earlier, wholesale prices of bandwidth vary depending on region.
4) Business installations are typically alot more complex than domestic installs. In either case, the setup costs do not go anywhere close to the total cost of providing the connection.

Thanks,
John.

spongebob

You compare unfavourably with the general WISP industry at that entry level. You could maybe consider €59.99 a month incl VAT now you have the residential package on the site at the full whack.

€59.99 PM 40:1 5Gb Good Locally Based Customer Service

€72.60 is nowhere.......get rid of it pronto.

I have avoided the CPE comparisons because they will never get you anywhere and i dont think it is fair. I am in favour of some fiscal levelling of the playing field for WISP or VSAT operators, maybe a tax break in the next budget to kick broadband takeoff in 2004 off with a bang.

M

arlbb

I know a little about Amocom's operations, working for an IT company in Cork where we have integrated broadband with office networks since DSL and Amocom first came to town.
Providers of wholesale bandwidth are few and far between in Cork. The operational costs of setting up a service like Amocom, as well as ongoing overheads, must be immense.
As has been pointed out, the install fee - even the business rate of 365 - does not cover the cost of the equipment.
Comparing the company to heavily funded corporations or ex-State monopolies who are creaming revenues elsewhere doesn't reflect reality.
I do think (because I have dealt with the company numerous times) that Amocom will bring prices down when they can, when economies of scale allow them to and when the wholesale prices and bandwidth supply loosens up.

Synkronite

At the moment Im torn between Amocom's 512/512 w/ 40:1 contention (For e72/mth and installation e320) and IOL Broadband 512/128 (For e59/mth and self-installation e90)..

A number of people in my estate are now considering the same options, and while I see the benefits of Amocom (local company, nice CSR, interaction on boards, lower contention, easier for bandwidth increase as needs arise) I have almost no knowledge about WISP (how does it suffer when weather is bad, latency compared to dsl, etc) I have used DSL when living in Switzerland and so feel more comfortable to that.. At the moment the upfront charges for Amocom are too high for me.. and as I already have a phone line, DSL is just cheaper both upfront and annually - my broadband needs arent that high at the moment - the flat rate option matters. And consistency. Something which EsatBT's No Limits has gone down the drains with recently.

While I think Amocom have been very bold in their venture and I wish them all the luck, I truly hope they become more competitive than DSL (Especially as wholesale bandwidth costs drop) -- Id still consider them for the extra e12/month but the additional e220 installation is what's putting me off although I understand it's more complicated than getting DSL.

Best wishes nonetheless.. I have a friend in Shrewsbury who should be giving you a ring soon. Nice to see broadband options in this city multiplying- although you should seriously stary advertising, even a public event

bk

I'm sorry John, I'm not trying to be annoying,
I'm really glad to see more competition in the market and I hope you succed.

However as your products are priced at the moment, they are just not competitive with your peers in cork.

You are competing against Eircom / IOL Broadband / Netsource.

All these products are RADSL 512k / 128k and contention of 48:1.

IOL Broadband (first customers will be activated in June):

Self Install : EUR 90 including free DSL modem. (Therefore the total install cost is just EUR 90).
Monthly fee: EUR 50 pm INCL. VAT.
CAP 5 GB (same as yourself)

or

Netsource (available now):
Self Install: EUR 99,
BB modem or router: EUR 60 - 150
(So total install is about EUR 200 -250)
Cost per month: EUR 66 incl VAT.
No CAP
Fixed IP address and domain name included in monthly price.

Now you can choose to ignore this info, but talking to my friends in Cork who would be your target audience (Comuter Science students / graduates and other medium to heavy net users) they all said your setup, equipment and monthly costs are just too high and they will be going for RADSL.

IOFFL did a survey a while back and I believe that most people only got interested in broadband when the price came down to EUR 40.

Most people I've talked to don't want to pay more then EUR 50 per month for BB, plus about max EUR 150 install.

I understand that wireless is more expensive to set up and the backhaul from Cork is expensive, however Joe Soap on the street won't care, he just wants bb for EUR 50 or less.

Hopefully the ESB will help with backhaul in the future.

Originally posted by oharej
When comparing prices, contention ratio needs to considered. On the home service we offer a 20:1 contention ratio on the 256kbps service. If a home user wishes to have a 512k (synchronous) 40:1 contention ratio at €60pm, it is also available. In fact some of our domestic users are already on that package. I believe the standard RADSL contention is 48:1 - correct?

Most home users don't know what contention means, they just want bb for less then EUR 50 per month and cheapish install.

With respect to government funding, the WLAN Trials tender was a very open process. I believe that for the €11,500 of tax payers money that Amocom secured from the DCMNR, it is pretty good ROI from the Governments perspective. Also, I would suspect that there has been significantly more "per user" investment by the government in assistance to DSL rollout.

Yes I believe Esat got 10 million for 40 exchanges!! I completely agree with you that wireless is a much better ROI, I was just pointing out that your peers in Dublin have much cheaper prices and they never got any support.

As for setup costs excl VAT, comparing with iStream starter taken from last Sunday's Business Post

- istream starter
Connection Fee 165 165
ADSL Ethernet Modem 200 USB 120
€365 €285

- Amocom Resedential Setup fee €265

1) The Eircom price is for Engineer install, most people will be able to get self install (EUR 99 incl VAT)
2) No one in their right mind would take the Eircom modem, the same modem can be gotten for about EUR 60 (Incl VAT) else where.

IOLBroadband is just EUR 90 (incl VAT) and with a modem.

Following are some advantages previously listed over ADSL
a) Amocom Net offers a synchronous service - same up and down speeds.

Good, but not really needed for residentail consumers, a cheaper asynchronous service would be better for residentail customers.

b) Wireless delivery => totally independent of phone lines i.e. no line rental (important in some situations where there is not already a phone line)

As soon as you over voice over IP, I'll dump Eircom

c) We typically install within days of receipt of contract (provided there is Line of Sight)
d) Greater coverage - we can reach many areas around the city where DSL is not yet available
e) Amocom Net has the ability to deliver up to 8Mbps per subscriber i.e. there will not be a need to change or "upgrade the line" again in couple of years.

All cool except for the line of site.

f) Can provide (at an additional fee), fixed IP address. This is typically only available at the high end ADSL packages

Nope, EUR 66 (incl VAT) per month gets you a fixed IP with Netsource.

g) Contention ratios of 20:1 or 40:1 as discussed previously - not sure about Netsource but Eircom's consumer product is 48:1

Yes, but Joe Consumer doesn't know what this means, BTW 40:1 isn't much better then 48:1.

h) Minimal latency - direct connectivity to internet backbone via NSC.

It is the smae for all the RADSL products, they are all INEX connected and have pings to the UK of about 30ms.

In the end, my point is that the initial setup cost and running costs are just too high for Joe consumer.

Maybe IOFFL should campaign for tax breaks for people buying wireless gear, to help with the setup costs.

bk

Originally posted by Synkronite
At the moment Im torn between Amocom's 512/512 w/ 40:1 contention (For e72/mth and installation e320) and IOL Broadband 512/128 (For e59/mth and self-installation e90)..

IOL Broadband is e49 per month (Incl VAT), not e59.

oharej

Wireless & Weather:
We have found no impact of bad weather/rain/fog on signal quality. In very fine weather and high pressure, there can be degradation, but that is built in to the marin of error at install. It is line of sight, so trees must not be in the path.

Latency over our network (i.e. to the gateway at the NSC) averages about 30ms.

- John.

spongebob

Originally posted by bk
Maybe IOFFL should campaign for tax breaks for people buying wireless gear, to help with the setup costs.

Hear Hear. There should be a tax break on the CPE differential.

dahamsta

You are competing against Eircom / IOL Broadband / Netsource.

Also all of the above in the business sector, i.e. bitstream and unbundled ADSL (as against RADSL).

adam

De Rebel

Originally posted by Muck
No DSL package is available in the country for less than €59.89 a month......and that one has yet to appear.... The IOL package I mean.

Doesn't Eircom's starter work out at €54.45, or am I missing something?

Don't be shy about correcting me Muck.

spongebob

this with and ex-vat crack is giving me a headache, i'm sorry I started it but it should be totally consistent for residential products which is my point and always has been.

IOL €49.49 PM incl VAT 5GB
Eircom €54.45 PM incl VAT 4Gb
Amocom €72.60 PM incl VAT 5Gb

Now for Digiweb in Dundalk, a town well served by multiple fibres (not) and who have announced a WISP offering recently.

Digiweb €54.45 PM incl VAT 6GB

I think they got govt squids off the same grant scheme as Amocom.

All are 512k packages, contention varies but is up around the 40-48:1 mark I'm sure.

Just by way of comparison like.

M

Chowley

John you never answered my question about a cap on on the business solo package,I would have thought that all your services would be uncapped.What is the contention on that?

The 5Gb cap on the residential package is really bad with the extra costs your only going to get residential users who are really desperate for broadband access.I personally do not see capped products as being flat rate your constantly havong to watch how much you download, even if amocom does not charge for going over the cap you will still have a downgraded service.

I also agree with the others here, you really need to do some advertising.I mentioned Amocom to a few frends of mine and they never heard the name.

Finally if there is a cap on the business solo package I think Ill wait for netsource.

oharej

If pushed for a figure I will quote 5Gb as the CAP on the low end products (including business solo). However, it is not mentioned in the contract or terms & conditions. In there you will find pricing based on number of users and a clause stating that Amocom reserve the right to request upgrading to next level of service, only after consultation with the customer.

As mentioned earlier, it is our experience that customers tend to respect this and it has not been an issue. But there needs to be some reasoning on both sides, so that a consistent level of service can be provided to the other users who share a particular chunk of bandwidth (corresponding to what is paid for). If it's not there and you sign up for 512k at 48:1, there is a danger that the service over time will degrade to a consistent 10kbps, as such a service will naturally attract the heavy users. As a consequence, it may get to a stage where a "normal" user may actually want to pay for a "cappped" service :-)

Agree on the advertising front. To date we have focussed on controlled targetting of the SME business market segment where we compete on availabilty, reliability, speed of delivery (days as opposed to months), customer service - not to mention price.

As coverage and capacity further increases in the coming weeks/months, we will probably seek to raise the profile. But the last thing we wish to do, is mass advertising which reaches potential customers in those areas where we can not yet serve or impacts on our ability to deliver the required level of service to our existing customer base. From the business user perspective, broadband quickly becomes integrated into the every-day routine - be it ROS, banking-on-line or whatever. Consequently where failed dial-outs and massive monthly bills were accepted as the norm weeks before the switchover - "always-on" now means "always-on". Not a bad thing by the way, but worth noting.

On a final note with respect to resedential pricing - when we first started offering service back in Jan, our resedential price was €70+VAT (when the closest Cork rival was €90+VAT ). On price, all I will say is, stay tuned.

Thanks again for all the views and constructive feedback on this thread. No doubt, there will be many others - hopefully!

- John.

dahamsta

My views on marketing and advertising are probably quite well known around here by now, so obviously I agree with John on the advertising front.

I'd go further in fact, I'd suggest that he probably shouldn't advertise at all, at least not in the conventional sense. As he's already noted himself, a broad advertising campaign could be extremely counter-productive, in that an unreasonable portion of his time could be taken up responding to requests that he simply cant satisfy. Worse, the disappointment of people he's unable to provide service for could turn into negative word of mouth, which is the exact opposite of (what should be) his ideal form of marketing. I don't think John's exactly in a position to blow Eircom out of the water just yet, so he's going to have to bide his time and push out to market slowly. Word of mouth is perfect for his business.

adam

bk

Originally posted by oharej
If pushed for a figure I will quote 5Gb as the CAP on the low end products (including business solo). However, it is not mentioned in the contract or terms & conditions. In there you will find pricing based on number of users and a clause stating that Amocom reserve the right to request upgrading to next level of service, only after consultation with the customer.

What happens if the customer can't afford to upgrade?

What happens if they refuse to upgrade, will you terminate the contract?

In this case, will you make them pay for the remainder of the contracted period?

I assume they would have to upgrade to your "Business 1 (2-5) users" product at 127 EUR pm, most residential customers couldn't afford this.

Also this compares badly to Esats 512k/256k (24:1 contention) service with No Cap for EUR 108 pm (plus cheaper install).

Either way the customer has wasted EUR 320 on your gear, that is a big gamble that you will stay under 5GB

As mentioned earlier, it is our experience that customers tend to respect this and it has not been an issue.

With many customers on DSL reporting downloading greater then 5Gig and some of them downloading as much as 30 gig, I can guarantee this will become an issue.

But there needs to be some reasoning on both sides, so that a consistent level of service can be provided to the other users who share a particular chunk of bandwidth (corresponding to what is paid for). If it's not there and you sign up for 512k at 48:1, there is a danger that the service over time will degrade to a consistent 10kbps, as such a service will naturally attract the heavy users. As a consequence, it may get to a stage where a "normal" user may actually want to pay for a "cappped" service :-)

How is this any different from your 512k 40:1 service, this could be contended down to 12.5kbps, even your 256k 20:1 product could be contended down to 12.8kbps.

BTW you are wrong on your last point, the more users on Netsource, the less contended it is likely to become. Because the more users you have, then the larger backhaul you can get. Even with the same contention on the larger backhaul, the more users you have, the more likely you are to have light and average users, therefore the contention is less likely to happen.

This is how ADSL in the UK works, most of the residential products there have a contention rate of 50:1 and have NO CAP. Yet you never hear of contention problems in the UK. This is because they have so many light to medium users on their service, it all balances out better.

Also Netsource only have a two month contract, so you can always bail on it if it doesn't work out and your only penalty is the EUR99 install.

Chowley

I really think €97 pm approx is just way too much to ask for a capped service especially with such a small cap.
NTL in the UK are considering capping their service.If they do cap it, it will be a 5Gb per day.
What is the contention ratio on the business solo?

BArra

business solo 20:1

dahamsta

Originally posted by Chowley
NTL in the UK are considering capping their service.If they do cap it, it will be a 5Gb per day.

They have done, although it's 1GB per day. And they're not currently enforcing it.

adam