New IBB Product

robfitz

Sorry I'm going to have to upset people about this product. We need to ask IBB and the manufacture what the range of this product is when used within European limits.

In Europe the maximum output power of a radio device plus antenna (EIRP) is 100 mW (Milli Watts) of transmit power in the 2.4 GHz band (ESTI EN 300 328).

The "MPE Predictions" document filed for the CPE shows that the maximum transmit power level of the device is 676 mW and the maximum gain of one of the included antennas is 7 dBi.

EIRP = 0.676 * 7 = 4.7 W

I'm not sure what kind of loss there is the cable and connectors, but I guess it would bring the EIRP level to under 4 Watts (US EIRP limits).

So if the device can get 4 kilometers with 4 watts of power what distance can it get with 100 mW?

Useful links:
EIRP Definition http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/eirp.htm
Information of radio power, dBi, dBm, mW conversion http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk722/tk809/technologies_tech_note09186a00800e90fe.shtml
FCC CPE Filing https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/oet/forms/reports/Search_Form.hts?mode=Edit&form=Exhibits&application_id=541739&fcc_id=PL6-ISM-CPE-R1
Nice power level chart http://www.destinycomp.com/tech/power.htm

spongebob

Originally posted by robfitz
Sorry I'm going to have to upset people about this product.

Rob sez it is illegal to use this in Europe, whatever about the US.

It could work in the MMDS (2.5Ghz) band if NTL 'ran' the network for them, couldn't it Rob . NTL 'own' the 2.5Ghz band in Talla but Chorus could also use it undr the expiry of the Geographical platform exclusivity rules... Chorus' attitude to regulation is that they are beyond regulation .

IBB recently hired the head Chorus Wireless BB geezer who probably told IBB so ....in order to get the job ?

Nobody other than NTL/Chorus may use that 2.5Ghz band anywhere in the country....until 2008 I think.

M

The Clown Man

I just rang them a while ago about the product and what I got was:

- They are starting roll out and tests from 3rock because they have the most control there
- They need seperate permission for the new equipment so it's not just a case of quickly installing it in the masts they already have live. A whole new rollout would have to be done.
- The modem/reciever plugs in to pick up the signal anywhere. eg your home, your garden, your office, your mother-in-law's, etc
- It is a 512/512 residential package
- It SHOULD be around €30 per month
- It should have a latency similar to adsl

Sounds good in that there is no cables or masts or anything. I didn't get too technical with the guy I was talking to because he just happened to be there and wasn't really at work.

And he said that they are trying to get it started before July but past experiences have pointed at the fact that things don't usually happen as soon as they are supposed to.

The impression I got was that they were trying to get the service up and running asap and that it would finally be a decent residential package. I was silently impressed anyway.

Just hope it hits the city centre soon...

robfitz

Much, you are right if they use the same technology in the 2.5 or 2.6 GHz band, or any other band they wouldn't have a problem. But the need to have a license from ComReg to operate in almost every other band.

2.400 - 2.4835GHz and 5.725 - 5.875GHz are two of the licensed exempt bands commonly used for 802.11b and 802.11a wireless technology.

spongebob

Comreg cannot give them a licence in the 2.5/2.6 band.

NTL and Chorus have this band allocated nationally to them for MMDS TV services

The only way I can see them 'Broadcasting' at 4 watts is if they come in 'under' Choruses licence.....somehow.

They may not Broadcast at 4W in the 2.4Ghz band where they are limited to 0.1w as you correctly stated.

NTL are hardly going to let them start a price war in Tallaght, are they?. Therefore I strongly suspect something involving Chorus here as they have an MMDS licence in North Dublin and in Wickila and Kildare.

Eircom have the 2.3Ghz band, nuff sed.

Heres a link to the modem specs FYI

M

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.comreg.ie/publications/default.asp?nid=100270&ctype=5
Lists Frequencies & Power levels.
(note: you may still need a license for some usages)

BTW: Rob - 7dB is actually 0.7B = 10^0.7 = 5.01
so they are using 0.767mW * 5 = 3.8Watts
So this is legal for point to point in the USA. Other legal things in the US - sub-machine guns / GMO / steroids in cattle / the death penalty / monopoly's / polygamy etc. etc.
Note: this power level is illegal even in the US for omni to omni links.

Lucent made a series of WiFi cards specifically for the EU market - they are coloured RED , this was an attempt to prevent people going over the EIRP limits.

The antenna's are 4" high give or take and do not seem to be directional ... - maybe they are using "phase array" to provide directionality (though almost every WiFi device has two antenna and diversity - so in theory could call them phase array)...

Point being - if the receivers are not directional then there is going to be a lot of clutter....

CitySickness

Sadly (for me), the online PDF manuals state that the Navini modems aren't compatible with the Mac OS. Which suggests that they have no intention of changing that situation either... *sigh*

Chaz

The Navini equipment will only be going onto the 3 Rock mast tomrrow. The equipment will be installed ready for Monday when the manufacturers and their support staff will start commisioning the site.

Only once this is complete - and beta testing has been done - will the product be officially launched - and hence the reason why the standard product is still the only product.

As for the speeds - 512/512 sounds incorrect - it should be more along 512/128 - but once again - only to be decided fully once testing is completed. The product is basically a wireless DSL service - this is the easiest to explain what the offering should be.

Mr_Man

Does anyone know if this is a directional or omnidirectional installation on 3 Rock ?

M.

qwertyup

Here's a link to Navini's white paper on Ripwave, if anyone is interested.

Ripwave White Paper

In addition, I went a-rootin' around in some of the other partner websites in an attempt to garner some more information.

From what I could make out from the Riplex Texas site, the product has a range of in and around 10 miles from the their towers. This seems to be quite long range, but then again, this could just be my ignorance on the subject making itself known.

Any informed opinions on that?

qwertyup

Going off IBB's own press release, they are aiming for a 5km range from their base stations. I found the stuff here

I'm going to try to bug them into letting me help them trial it, if I am near enough to the station.

It has got to be worth a shot.

EDIT: Just looked at Navini's press release on this, and they allude to a range of up 8 miles, or 12.8 km. Anyone know what would govern the range IBB can get? As in is the Navini max range with another product than the Ripwave one, or what? Couldn't find it out on the website

Lex_Diamonds

I hope IBB plan to deploy Ripwave on the RTE tower, its better than the current technology and more importantly, I want it

LFCFan

if this new tech is cheaper to deploy and easier to install and more people can get it quicker then it's in IBB's interest to deploy it on as many base stations as possible. The amount of people who would be in a position to install this would be phenomenal compared to other broadband services so they would clean up.

vishal

the woman on the phone from ibb said the contention ratios will be similar to that of adsl offered by eircom

spongebob

They currently use Alvarion kit. See This announcement.

M

Peanut

Some of us out towards west Dublin have been seeing some heavy interference in the 2.4Ghz band recently.

I'm not saying it's IBB testing, but I do wonder how this non-LOS service will co-exist with the many established (business and/or personal) WiFi lans in the Tallaght / Clondalkin area.

My guess is that it won't... ...if it uses 2.4Ghz and can be accessed by non-LOS from eg. within a business that has an existing WiFi LAN then there will most definitely be a conflict in the spectrum usage.

Stephen

Chaz

The IBB Ripwave equipment is yet to be powered. The cables were only being run yesterday and today - so therefore no chance that it has come from the new equipment.

spongebob

Dublinwan/Irishwan should complain while they still can.

Peanut

I guess the interference is from some other transmitter then, I don't think complaining is necessary as I can't see a non-los 2.4ghz service being viable in the long term or even medium term over that sort of extended range, due to the unlicensed nature of the frequencies.

Stephen

http://www.kildarewan.net/

Matt Simis

Originally posted by Chaz
The IBB Ripwave equipment is yet to be powered. The cables were only being run yesterday and today - so therefore no chance that it has come from the new equipment.

Since you are here Chaz, perhaps you can clarify something. I received an email last week from IBB claiming no service in the D15 area for 6 months and no mention of Navini tech.

Then today.. a co-worker just gets off the phone with IBB and claims they told him the D15 transmitter will be up and running next month (he even knew exactly where it physically is located) and the service offered will be €120 installation and €30 per month, which are the Navini numbers arent they?


So, which is correct???



Matt

Capt'n Midnight

Naw - just get a video sender - ramp it up to 100mW EIRP and let it blast away in all directions (use 3 inverters off a hex inverter in series for the white noise input)

Chaz

OK

What area is D15 - is that Clondalkin (apologies - non irish person) - if that is - then it will be standard Alvarion kit. I am not aware of any other sites - except 3 Rock that will have Navini in the immediate (few weeks) time period.

On the Navini side - testing has started and results look promising. We have had non los coverage whilst driving in a car (slowly) at around 6 kms. This is not the distance we would typically install off - however just as interest to yourselves.

Once testing is completed - I will post something to that nature and give guidlines of the service area for futher beta testing and new client sign ups.

Matt Simis

Sorry, should have made that clearer- Dublin 15 is Blanchardstown and the surrounding areas.

So, you are indirectly saying that the info given out by the phone support today wasnt quite correct? Is there any service (Navini or not) going live in D15 next month?

How long will Navini testing be going on for before you will upgrade other transmitters to take advantage of it?



Matt

Chaz

OK - from memory - Blanhards town is near ready - as far i remember we were waiting for ESB for power and we would be ready to install. As I say - this is from memory - I am not directly involved in the planning phases - but moreso on building some of the sites once they are ready.

The information that you got seems incorrect. Do you have a name that you/your friend has had contact with so I can find out what information went wrong.

As far as Navini - testing is still in progress as we speak of 3 Rock - looking good. I am not sure how long it will take to start rolling out on other sites - there many more factors involved with Navini - therefore it might not be duplicated on all sites.

I am sure that once the kit proves successful - it will be rolled out as fast as possible.

Chaz

Come speak to me on irc.irishbroadband.ie - irishbb
I am also currently on the baords irc server.

Mr_Man

Chaz,

since you are clued in about the 3 Rock testing, can you let us know if the signal from the new Navini rig is directional, or omni-directional ?

Thanks

M.

Chaz

Directional - 120 Degrees .... no point serving the hill :-)

Mr_Man

Chaz,

thanks for the reply. I take it from your answer that the IBB mast is not one of the ones on top of Three Rock.

Cheers

M.

qwertyup

Hey Chaz, given that I cannot find any Dublin map at the moment, and I am sort of tied up with the whole Leaving Cert thing at the moment, any chance you could say what towns are on the outer limits of the service, based on whats been tested so far?

Or if anyone has a compass, a good map and too much free time...

Chaz

Mr Man - correct

qwertyup - when testing is complete - we will post the coverage area for the non los kit.