IOFFL's future direction.....

Dangger

"Stepping over the sleeping giants."

After talking with various people over the past few months about IOFFL's importance and the need for a consumer voice it has been agreed that IOFFL is to continue, even after the rollout of a flat rate product.

It has also been agreed that we need new objectives, or should give some serious thought to adding to our current objectives. It's a great measure of success that we now need new ones because we've seen progress on our current ones. I'm not going to try and define the objectives in this short piece, I think they will fall out after discussion and more thinking!

I think IOFFL has to realise that it's tried and trusted method of working via lobbying and pointing out the inefficiencies/lies of the fixed line operators has served its purpose well but this method cannot be used indefinitely into the future.

It would be a waste of our precious energy and scarce resources to continue to hammer fixed line operators and attempt to prod them via various bodies and groups government or otherwise. With the increased knowledge of the economics involved in the running of a telco and the relevant legislation (coupled with the snail like pace of ComReg) that we have accquired over the past two years we must be aware of the following. Getting flat rate dial up was key and as a result of this, limited DSL roll out has occurred, it was also a bonus to see the price cut in May.

In my mind this was the best we could hope for from the operators and to continue to try to push them in a direction would be frivilous and a waste. They ain't going to budge. We have got all we can from them. They will only deliver more to us if they are forced via external forces. But there is momentum building (we always say that though don't we!).

We have the metro ring project and wireless to concentrate on, they present fantastic opportunity for the country as a whole if they can be done correctly. With the steps taken to shake out fixed line access, we need to focus on the stimulation of the development of the alternative infrastructure and to see operators providing service on it and therefore applying pressure to fixed line operators. Competing infrastructure competition.

We've alredy discussed this change in tact in print and on radio of late. I've met with business and commnity groups in regional areas who have come to the same conclusion. They have finally realised that the fixed line operators aren't coming to them, so they are actively looking for the alternatives and battling to see them come their way. There is a big role for IOFFL to play here. Just as we educated the politicians on flat rate and DSL availablity we need to eductate on the importance of alternative infrastructure and how it can be achieved with the pieces the government is putting in now, future legislation and new/current technologies. Just as we investigated how FRIACO could be implemented we need to determine how local/community based and small commercial ISP's can be set up and get plugged in to offer connectivity.

This is just a start. I've been concious of the need to have a discussion on these importnant matters in the forum and with IrelandOffline members. Perhaps we can thrash this out some more......


David Long
IOFFL Chairman

spongebob

Good Stuff

Irelandoffline has a strong brand (and is not in hock to any Telco)

It is also time to say, first stage over.


By the 1/7/03 Friaco will be in and affordable (albeit limited ) BB as well.

The next stage involves Affordable, Universal Broadband for all.

I think many entities , not just traditional telcos , will spring up to provide Affordable/Universal BB over the next 2-3 years.

IoffL could help lobby for the likes of Irishwan for example. IoffL is more policy focused and is technology agnostic.

M

shinzon

It is also time to say, first stage overBy the 1/7/03 Friaco will be in and affordable.

we hope, i still say theres gonna be a **** up somewhere

regards

shin

flav0rflav

If goals have been reached, then new goals have to be set. What are these?

5 meg broadband in use by majority of households by 2005?

Or, Ireland mentioned in same breath as S.Korea, Japan in relation to BB?

Or Ireland leading the pack in Europe?

Once there is a goal, mechanisms will follow, ie. lobbying towards more competition, or regulation, by the government or industry.

iwb

I started a thread a long while back which spawned an idea from someone here about education of the populace. It seems to have died there at the time.
It should be one of IOFFL's new goals to educate people as to the benefits of fast always on connectivity and also broadband connectivity.
This would be part of the steps necessary to get the ball rolling here in a real way.
What needs to happen in Ireland is;

1. More and cheaper options for backhaul/backbone countrywide.
2. Education of the masses to the benefits of FAO connectivity.
3. Existing and new providers, wireless and otherwise move out to the regions and offer service.
4. Once critical mass is reached, 'pump up the volume' and make it all true broadband. 5Mb here we come.

Now, lets get on it. We only have a few years left:D

Dawg

How about proposing a scheme that allowed a wireless isp to use the roof of public school buildings for their antenna, and in return the schools could get free always-on internet access. A lot of public schools also hold adult education classes in the evenings, I'm sure they could also benefit from having BB access.

It could be set up on a regional basis. The government could set down requirements that the ISP must meet in order to qualify, and interested parties can put in offers as to what services/coverage they can supply. The company most willing and able gets the roofspace's for that region.

Considering that public schools are in or around almost all populated areas this could achieve widespread coverage around the country. It would certainly pressure the fixed line operators into getting their skates on. It could also act as incentive for smaller companies/community groups to get in on the act by cutting down on the initial investment needed to get up and running.

Having said all that, I know nothing about the equipment used by wireless ISP's. Would this even be possible?

spongebob

Difficult. Can you see the locals agree to a mobile phone mast on the roof of the same school?

M

MDR

Dawg,

Thats a good idea which has been bandied about quite a bit. The problem is for a start (now I could be wrong here), but from my understanding most school premises are owned by the church ?

Then you also have the problem of the parents, you start putting ariels on the school and one child gets a nose bled, the ariel is obviousily to blame. Then you have protests, letters, prayer cards and mircalous medals in the post to the principle. That ariel could be providing free internet to the whole community and it wouldn't make a difference ....

Non-line of sight based wireless equipment does exist to offer this type of service, IBB is trailing it in tallagt at the moment, so it is certainily doable .....

My medium term hope is for the govt MAN to enable small wireless operators to set up in their own community. Bill down the local is a bit of the local entrepeneur, he also is on the board of the local GAA/Rugby/Golf/etc club which has a high point, he invests a small sum and makes a healthy return, get a couple of hundred of this type of initative and it would transform the island .... and make Eircom et al. a distant memory .... power to the people etc ....

flav0rflav

So yesterday the government came out and said they're running at a loss, and you guys are pushing a policy of public investment in lots of small wireless operations all around the country.

The answer to me seems obvious, the price of the currently available and deployed broadband solution has to be lowered by the regulator/government. The OFTEL report makes very depressing reading.

Trebor

Originally posted by flav0rflav

The answer to me seems obvious, the price of the currently available and deployed broadband solution has to be lowered by the regulator/government. The OFTEL report makes very depressing reading.

they are tring to do this but eircom keeps bringing it to the high court on the grounds that they would lose so much money and then cannot invest in the network which means that the order is refutted or delayed.

BTW interest rates are at an all time low, now would be the best time for the govrnment to borrow and invest in infastructure both wireless and fibre rings.

heck if a bank would give me the money i would do it and then sell access for cost! then when the loans are payed off i would be making lots of money by not lowering my prices and i would still beat Eircom prices

MDR

So yesterday the government came out and said they're running at a loss, and you guys are pushing a policy of public investment in lots of small wireless operations all around the country.

As far as I am aware most governments are running at loss at the minute, nothing to be wildy concerned about. Our loss on a per capita basis is quite small compared to other economies Germany, France and the U.S.

Public Investment in lean times is essential to ensure that there are going to be good times ahead again. We need a competitive communications infrastructure in Ireland and that is unlikely to be relised by dragging Eircom through the courts.

It will probabily cost the state a fortune, which could have been better spent on creating an alternative infrastructure using wireless. Your argument supposes that the government/COMREG can simply tell Eircom to do X and it will be done, unfortunately things aren't quite that simply.

Eircoms network would indeed provide an interim solution but given the lack of imputus on their part to invest in the network, and plan for Ireland future, if we went down the road you suggest we would just be in a far worse position in 5 to 10 years time.

flav0rflav

Originally posted by MDR

Public Investment in lean times is essential to ensure that there are going to be good times ahead again.

I, personally agree with this philosophy. Spend in a recession, save in a boom, to smooth the economic cycle. The current government does not.

So you would swap one problem for another:

a) convince current government to spend money.

b) get government/regulator to increase competitveness of eircom

OK, there is no reason not to attempt both. I personally believe there is more short term potential with option b. As the governemt/regulator/competition authority/EU are already going in this direction, as well as examples of other countries (Japan) have done this. If the regulator has been put in a position where every decision can be challenged in the courts then there would appear to be a fundamental problem with them.

ps. I understand that alot of you guys have spent a large amount of time on these issues. If I'm merely covering old ground please say so.

MDR

ps. I understand that alot of you guys have spent a large amount of time on these issues. If I'm merely covering old ground please say so.

no problem, I don't mind discussing these issues.

I, personally agree with this philosophy. Spend in a recession, save in a boom, to smooth the economic cycle. The current government does not.

People talk about the govt. buying the election with tax cuts etc, to be honest I think half the problem is the people view of the government. Good government to the Irish people is more tax cuts, if they are good times and government don't give em, they won't be in power for very long. Anyway very OT.

get government/regulator to increase competitveness of eircom

...

If the regulator has been put in a position where every decision can be challenged in the courts then there would appear to be a fundamental problem with them.

Well the ODTR became COMREG, and despite a huge change of attidute from the regulator, the market hasn't changed much.

You see you can't get away from the fact that Eircom owes an enormous debt, and most of its activities these days are centred on paying that debt, and this doesn't include investing in Ireland future.

In other countries Telecom companies have long term plans, not only to make money now, but to be making money in ten years. So therefore alot of the time the regulator and incumbent telco, can get along because their objectives are similar.

BT choose to bend with the wind of OFTEL (eventually after the FRIACO fight), and came out winning because its plans where long term. Eircom has no such long term plans, all its plans are short term, i.e. pay off the debt, all its energy is bent on this one task.

Therefore to try and coerce Eircom into being more competitive (especially when the unions own 30% ... see United Airlines) are going to be futile. They will be dragged through every court in the land and beyond. Eircom current business model is far too valuable to let COMREG mess up.

Therefore the best forward is to make Eircom irrelevant.

flav0rflav

A regulator is always going to be a logger-heads with the incumbant Telco! Otherwise they are useless. And a regulator that hasn't got enough legal/policy backing to tackle the incumbant is useless.

I think the current radsl product is quite good except for the pricing. And LLU does circumvent eircom.

Is the government going to tackle eircom? It may be cheaper and more publicly 'gainful' than spending money.

Dangger

So yesterday the government came out and said they're running at a loss, and you guys are pushing a policy of public investment in lots of small wireless operations all around the country

No, we asked the government to commit to the plan it unveiled last year - "New Connections - MAN" which has had slippage. There are a growing number of wireless operators and the MAN project is a means for them to avail of backhaul and offer service non reliant on Eircom's network.

The government have already thrown a lot of money at O2 to offer wireless hotspots, money that could have been better used by smaller operators to offer greater connectivity. We's like to see smarter allocation of the funding they have allocated. We did not go in there gunning for shed loads of money to fund lots of small wireless operations all around the country.

MDR

A regulator is always going to be a logger-heads with the incumbant Telco!

Not necessarily true, the two will occasionally disagree, after all it is the regulators job to ensure they is a level playing field to the incumbents disadvantage. But an incumbent operator with forsight will see the changes the regulator is likely to make in the future coming and perpare for them, so that when they do come they are still on top, ala BT's wholesale bitstream and OFTEL.

I think the current radsl product is quite good except for the pricing. And LLU does circumvent eircom.

The radsl product isn't all that good, it is only available to a small percentage of people and given the nature of the technology it its unlikely it will ever be available to everyone without huge investment from Eircom, which for the reasons I have already pointed out are unlikely to happen.

LLU doesn't nothing to takle problems like being the too far from the exchange and having a splitter on your line. The IOFFL committee believes (without hard facts) that the percentage of lines with splitters to enormous. Now hopefully the upcoming USO directives from COMREG will help sort this, but really in the long term Eircom's last mile network is pretty shoddy and is very unlikely to get any better.

We can't always be waiting around for the government or COMREG to twist Eircom's arm in doing things incumbent telco's with forsight have already rolled out. If we keep dealing with Eircom we are always going to be second last. We need proactive telecom infrastructure, we need public ownership of that infrastructure.

Is the government going to tackle eircom? It may be cheaper

Historically the cost of trying to fight this sort of battle, because of the hugely inflated rates solicitors and barristers get paid, are absolutely staggering. It would seriousily probabily just as cheap and better future planning to invest the money in laying MAN's around some of our major towns.

flav0rflav

The radsl product is the same as BT's in the UK. Is it not successful?

I previously pointed out figures for the length and corresponding bitrate attainable with the _majority_ of lines in this country.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96979
[60% of rural should be capable of > 3Mbps. And probably 90% of suburban > 5Mbps. ]

As regards quality of the lines, ie. splitters. What is the situation and what does 'enormous' mean? Do you mean in absolute terms, eg 50% of all lines, or do you mean it in a relative way, eg. 10 times more than the euro average? I would expect our lines are quite good compared to europe, if only because it is newer plant.

In every other major country with broadband, DSL is the main technology. Now, I do say 'majority' and 'main'. Obviously it is not suitable for all circumstances, and should not be the only solution, particularly with respect to competition.

Ok, if IOFFL are attempting to tackle the _whole_ problem, ie. decent broadband for everyone in the state, then, more power to IOFFL, but I would suggest getting the majority online is presumably a right step in that direction.

You don't want to wait for the gov to twist eircoms arm, but you're more inclined to wait for them to give out money on alternative infrastructure. I don't believe that's a very efficient policy. I don't want to see the government fight eircom in the courts. I don't see why it should be necessary, if the regulator would only exercise their legal/competition/euro rights and regulate.

If you want an all encompassing plan for the future, go with fibre to the home.

MDR

The radsl product is the same as BT's in the UK. Is it not successful?

Yes radsl is cool technology and has many successful implementations in other countries. But given the number the enabled exchanges in Ireland and no real plans from Eircom to enable more (yes there is alot of talk investment, but in fairness they have been talking about XDSL since 1997), we can't depend of Eircom to delivery XDSL in the long term.

I would expect our lines are quite good compared to europe, if only because it is newer plant.

From information we have gathered ourselves, suggests that whole communities in Ireland are served by split lines. We obviousily can't put a figure on it, without any hard facts, but from reports the committee hears occasionally, the problem does seem rather large. I suggest you speak to EircomTribunal or Urban Weigl for more information.

n every other major country with broadband, DSL is the main technology.

No true, in many countries cable is the main technology.

but I would suggest getting the majority online is presumably a right step in that direction.

Thats what our FRIACO campaign was all about, people in the short term are going to be far more inclined to go online using flat-rate than any other medium. The wireless campaign is all about providing something for them to migrate to in the medium to long term.

You don't want to wait for the gov to twist eircoms arm, but you're more inclined to wait for them to give out money on alternative infrastructure.

Yes, because the alternative infrastructure based companies will be better for Ireland in the long term, and its the long term we are really worried about. They will compete with each other, this would promote new technologies, lower prices etc.

Your solution isn't that short term, when you consider all the wrangling and court battles that insue.

if the regulator would only exercise their legal/competition/euro rights and regulate.

Anything the regulator is likely to do, that will curtail Eircoms abaility to spin money is likely to end up in the courts one way or another.

This arguement is starting to go around in circles.

flav0rflav

This arguement is starting to go around in circles.

Yes, ok. I'm happy to have had my say. I appreciate your points.

MDR

Yes, ok. I'm happy to have had my say. I appreciate your points.

The committee appreciates your feelings on the matter and I will raise them at the next meeting ... ?

flav0rflav

Two points arose like ... (simile involving Brittney left to reader).

from ENN

It is also thought that the Minister for Communications, Dermot Ahern, TD, who has always stressed the need for reduced Internet access charges, may now fast track the establishment of an appeals board for the communications sector. The board is designed as a way for ComReg and telecom companies to settle disputes without recourse to the courts with the board having the power to overrule decisions made by the regulator.

And, any legal actions taken by comreg and the resulting fees are paid for by comreg from their own funds. Funds which are garnered via licensee levies. Eircom were most upset awhile back when levies came up for debate, as they are the licensee most likely to ...

MDR

without recourse to the courts with the board having the power to overrule decisions made by the regulator.

*Ray wonders how long it will be until some challenges the right of appeal to the high court etc*