Boards.ie ISP? Our travels in Telcoland...

Señor Juárez

what about a mesh wireless network, like DublinWAN, for the backbone? using highly directional links between houses, this would allow long distances, and the bandwidth is pretty good these days on wireless. 54meg 802.11g will soon be the standard, and I have even heard of proprietory manufacturer's gear going at 162megs. as the mesh spread out throughout all of the boards users, more and more clients could connect. then as long as the bandwidth could be got out onto the network, the actual bandwidth would be all that would have to be paid for! (apart from equipment of course)

DeVore

Originally posted by flamegrill
I believe the admins are DOUBLE hard and won't give up on this so as long 'we' the community stands behind them. Bring it on lads :-)


Paul

Aye, so long as the situation exists that we can bring some sort of pressure to bear we'll give it a shot.

We really DO need the community behind us but to be honest, thats not a major worry! We reckon is we can offer the product we want, there'll be no shortage of takers.

If we dont, well then we've tried our best and it just cant be done. That in itself would send a message to our political masters. One I'll deliver in my own inimitable style hehe

Seriously though, we're SUPPOSED to be able to do something like this and we CAN if we get the provision we need but the truth is that its very very hard to offer anything decent. We're talking to Wireless operators all week next week. We'll let you know how things go as much as NDA's allow.
We'll give it our best shot.


DeV.

DeVore

Originally posted by marclar
what about a mesh wireless network, like DublinWAN, for the backbone? using highly directional links between houses, this would allow long distances, and the bandwidth is pretty good these days on wireless. 54meg 802.11g will soon be the standard, and I have even heard of proprietory manufacturer's gear going at 162megs. as the mesh spread out throughout all of the boards users, more and more clients could connect. then as long as the bandwidth could be got out onto the network, the actual bandwidth would be all that would have to be paid for! (apart from equipment of course)

Thats a possible route Marclar. We'll talk to DublinWAN.

DeV.

dahamsta

Originally posted by marclar
what about a mesh wireless network

I'm not knocking this out of hand, I just want to point something out: The problem with mesh is that one node can take half the network down, and there's very little accountability, which makes it unsuitable for a reliable service. It won't be long before Regi's committed from having to repeatedly tell people that he /can't/ fix the network for a few days, because Billy Bob Mucker O'Toole turned the leccy off when he left for Bolivia, or Aunty Maureen dropped dead while downloading a tarball of de intarweb.

adam

Boston

Originally posted by dahamsta
I'm not knocking this out of hand, I just want to point something out: The problem with mesh is that one node can take half the network down, and there's very little accountability, which makes it unsuitable for a reliable service. It won't be long before Regi's committed from having to repeatedly tell people that he /can't/ fix the network for a few days, because Billy Bob Mucker O'Toole turned the leccy off when he left for Bolivia, or Aunty Maureen dropped dead while downloading a tarball of de intarweb.

adam

Fair point, but that said theres a fair few company owners and web cafe operators around boards. If they used a system like ripwave you could install base stations are over the place, wit ha semi constant cover. all you have to do is make sure you have enough areas covered so that if one goes down your grand. Even if you weren't using a grid type network you would still do this, look at IBB distrobution of base stations, one every 3-4 km in dublin city centre, and the range with those things can be huge.

spongebob

Originally posted by DeVore
We're talking to Wireless operators all week next week. We'll let you know how things go as much as NDA's allow.
We

Be bloody careful with IBB, they are funded by the well known Pigopolist NTR . They intend to fully launch in Dublin /Cork/Galway/Limerick within the next 6-9 months but will not go nationwide ....ever!

NTR only go where there is easy money to be made because of Imperfect Competition or a Duopoly (Cartel in other words) , look at the Westlink FFS, their main cash cow. They have never offered a competitive product in a competitive market.........ever.

M

Señor Juárez

Originally posted by dahamsta
I'm not knocking this out of hand, I just want to point something out: The problem with mesh is that one node can take half the network down, and there's very little accountability, which makes it unsuitable for a reliable service. It won't be long before Regi's committed from having to repeatedly tell people that he /can't/ fix the network for a few days, because Billy Bob Mucker O'Toole turned the leccy off when he left for Bolivia, or Aunty Maureen dropped dead while downloading a tarball of de intarweb.

adam

The idea of a mesh network is also the fact that if one server goes down, it doesnt do too much damage. see attached pic. if each person is connected to at least two other nodes, there shouldnt be a problem unless the client is unlucky enough to have problems with both nodes.

although if such a system was to be implemented, people would have to say that they will try to maintain some kind of reliability.


on another note, will someone tell me the price of bandwidth from the provider (i.e. the backbone, on sale to ISP's)? I have tried quite a bit, but it has eluded me. I was working for work experience with IBB, but they wouldnt let on to me how much it was. I got the impression that it was so little that it would make the price for a connection look like a ripoff...

Señor Juárez

Originally posted by Muck
Be bloody careful with IBB, they are funded by the well known Pigopolist NTR . They intend to fully launch in Dublin /Cork/Galway/Limerick within the next 6-9 months but will not go nationwide ....ever!

NTR only go where there is easy money to be made because of Imperfect Competition or a Duopoly (Cartel in other words) , look at the Westlink FFS, their main cash cow. They have never offered a competitive product in a competitive market.........ever.

M

IBB will start up ANYWHERE where sufficient interest is shown and a startup is feasible. remember that IBB have got no help from the government at all, so why should they provide a service at a loss to themselves in the middle of some bog in galway, where some farmer wants his kid to "try out this interweb thingy all you kids are on about today"

dahamsta

I understand the concept of mesh marclar, I'm just doubtful wireless will reach the level of saturation required to implement it effectively in the near future. I have great respect for what IrishWAN is doing, but I genuinely think that the concept of an island-wide network of interconnected nodes is a pipe-dream that may distract some people from getting on with the important business of plain-jane network sharing.

By the way, I'm not sure I said: Congratulations to IrishWAN for being invited to the recent committee, and well done for making the presentation.

adam

Señor Juárez

a city wide network would be nice, and is looking very good at the moment!

andrew163

For the moment we will be looking at Dublin

Just please please PLEAHEEHEEEESE don't do your "trial run" in Tallaght and get stuck there for about 5 years.

Good luck on your noble quest, oh noble ones.

pete

Originally posted by andrew163


Just please please PLEAHEEHEEEESE don't do your "trial run" in Tallaght and get stuck there for about 5 years.

or bleedin sandyford

DeVore

If (and its a big if) we can get this off the ground we'd be going live as far and as wide as our wholesale supplier will allow.

The problems arent financial ones or even logistical ones, they are political and protectionist.

DeV.

Señor Juárez

so is wireless the decided last mile solution?

spongebob

Originally posted by marclar
remember that IBB have got no help from the government at all,

.

DeVore

marclar... we have gone through all the other possibilities. They are pipe dreams, ridiculously expensive or very poor solutions. In some cases all three.

Wireless isnt the "decided on" solution. Its the only hope we have left so we are checking it out.... it could turn out to be a non-starter though I think it wont.

DeV.

SkepticOne

Regardless of NTR's relationship with the State, IBB are forced to work with whatever funds provided to them by their parent who, in turn, are seeking to maximise return on investment (like any other company).

I don't think that their dominance of the toll road business will make them feel obliged to solve the country's lack of competitiveness in the broadband arena. They will do just the same as any other company and concentrate initially on high density areas.

Having said that, since they don't use Eircom's last mile, they are the nearest thing to real competition we have (a few other wireless companies forming the remainder). I don't really care who their owners are; we need more companies building alternative infrastructures to the current monopoly.

I agree with Muck that they won't be nationwide any time soon. They will be concentrating on urban areas first. DeVore can't rely on one single company to carry the service. Nationwide wireless will be delivered by many companies, not one.

spongebob

IBB will never move beyond the bigger towns and are unlikely to move beyond the 5 biggest.

I have made a point or two to DeV in private on how to remain multivendor in his Boardsband network design. I expect that IBB will hate the idea, given their 'pedigree' . Their pimping record in this Board (and on other Boards) is pretty indicative of their take and give absolutely nothing back mentality.

M

Stonemason

I come in here every night to see if there is any ray of hope to cheer me up and BINGO tonights the night

Well done DeVore and all involved go for it BIG time.I know it will probably take awhile to get down here but it would be a wait with an end in sight which makes a hell of a difference .As many before have said id buy shares help out to the best of my limited abilty (wireless network wise).

Good luck and show them fat cats what a younger hungrier celtic tiger can do .

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Muck
IBB will never move beyond the bigger towns and are unlikely to move beyond the 5 biggest.

What if it is profitable to go beyond these towns? Why would NTR want to prevent IBB from making extra money for their parent?

There is the possibility of a cartel arrangement. However if one was in operation, it would be unlikely to operate in this way. Such an arrangement would more likely carve up the market in such a way that IBB is not competing with Eircom, e.g., IBB get all the marginal areas and Eircom stick with the large towns.

robbie1876

A transmitter placed at each of NTR's planned motorway toll booths over the next few years should easily give you total nationwide coverage.....

Seriously though, good luck with the project guys. Just don't forget about us poor commuters in Portloaise.

Chowley

Bloody great news.
Dont forget to talk to Amocom in Cork.
If it is un-capped 512k and around the €50 mark its a definate yes I will avail of your service Id pay a lot more to be honest.

Good Luck.
Dont forget Cork.

Señor Juárez

Originally posted by SkepticOne
What if it is profitable to go beyond these towns? Why would NTR want to prevent IBB from making extra money for their parent?

There is the possibility of a cartel arrangement. However if one was in operation, it would be unlikely to operate in this way. Such an arrangement would more likely carve up the market in such a way that IBB is not competing with Eircom, e.g., IBB get all the marginal areas and Eircom stick with the large towns.

of course they would!!

(getting bacl on topic...)

you will be having a lot of competitiom, to say the least.... never forget the new IBB product, 512/128 €30 a month inc vat, 120 for installation... beside that, €50 a month starts to look a tad overpriced

DeVore

Thats easy.

If we are getting 30 quid a month, 512 connections, low contention and good latency.... we wont do this! We'd have what we are looking for and its a big headache gone from me lol...

I dont think anyone (well anyone but us maybe heheh) is going to cut their own throat for the general public's internet access... I mean, why would they? all of them are focused solely on profit. You could die in the morning, so long as your will kept paying the bill.

DeV.

DeVore

As for nationwide coverage. Here's what i think:

Since we would be effectively carrier independant (albeit with exclusive agreements in geographical locations) we can talk to many different suppliers. Already we're talking to a startup crowd in Athlone. So, if Leap or IBB or whoever, isnt going to cover Athlone... hey, we'll buy from these startup guys.

If you're local area isnt covered.... why not look into a baby-bell kinda solution and start your own! Get the kit, club together and get a line and backhaul the data to us, then we provide you uplink.... we can charge locals for installation and supply and pay you wholesale!

Its a long-term-dream (lets get ANYONE up and running first) but you know... the Dublin/Cork WAN guys are giving it a shot and its not impossible by any means...

DeV.

SkepticOne

I think boards could be valuable to small wireless ISPs in generating sales. Right now, most of them are selling in the low hundreds or less. Large numbers of boards users would make a significant difference. Problem is that they are a bit scattered.

drjolt

So, deconfuse me here, guys - is the proposed service an access service for end users, or backhaul+marketing for local last-mile providers (be they preexisting commercial concerns or local co-ops). If it's the latter, what exactly is the boards.ie value-add, so to speak?

flav0rflav

Dev,

You say that the RADSL 512k service is contended at the DSLAM, ie. one 512k VC coming from the dslam, for upto 48 users. This is not explicit from eircom's public docs. Did they tell you this or is this your interpretation of the docs?

If it is not contended at this point, but at the handover point (like BT in UK), then you would be in control of the contention.

DeVore

Flav, I cant comment on that as a result of the NDA. I cant comment on any specific knowledge that may have been imparted in that meeting if its not already common knowledge.

Sorry, if its not already in the public realm, I cant introduce it.

I think actions speak louder then words anyway.

DeV.

sceptre

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Large numbers of boards users would make a significant difference. Problem is that they are a bit scattered.

Certainly true. The one thing we do have though is that many boards.ie users are seen by their friends as their tech advisors. One boards user is potentially much more valuable than one less-than-clued-in disconnected web user, at least when it comes to marketing any tech product without actually spending any money on marketing.