Music activism

lordsippa

I was thinking last night about what a rip off cd's can be nowadays, and how the artists only get a little from the sales, etc. So I decided to set up an interest group of sorts... kinda like IOFFL. The two main ideas would be to defend the rights of both the consumer AND the artist, so lowering cd prices without lowering royalties. As of yet I've no idea how to go about it, beyond lobbying for investigation into the running of these industries, and for legislation to be put in place (doing what I've no idea yet... as I said I only thought of this last night).

So I'm just interested to know if anyone'd like to be a part of this, and if anyone has suggestions as to how we'd go about our objectives. I'd probably try to get it based here on boards, for general ease of access.

Oh, and if there's already a group out there campaigning for this then please let me know so I can get in touch.

(And yes, I am aware there's an EU committee meant to be looking into this subject, but without a group to counter the lobbying being done by the music industry, it's doubtful much will be acheived)

I've already brought this up on Rock/Metal forum <mid thread> and I just thought I'd try and see if there would be any interest in this idea... without support it's meaningless.
Anyway, that's me done.

tman

bloody right, cd's could be sold for at least half of what most shops are charging.
you've got my support

ferdi

I'm with ye Wallis!! (said in scottish accent)

what do we do il duice?

SOL

well see part of the problem is that so much is spent on the music writers and managers for some "artists" that they have to charge that much to be economically viable otherwise the companies don't get to make obscene amounts of money

nosmo

Stamp of NosmoApproval noted

lordsippa

That's the thing though. A lot of music companies have been recording losses. Yet all their bosses have been making millions more. It's a sad fact that the music industry is screwing itself over, yet the people on top are still raking it in. And the only people who can stop that are governments. But they won't, unless forced to by pressure from consumers.

lordsippa

Right... I've put up the request for a forum on the feedback/suggestions forum. All the feedback I've gotten so far (on and off boards) has been really positive, even if nobody really knows how we're gonna manage to get this to work. If anybody involved with IOFFL wants to lemme know about lobbying and contacting reps from businesses it'd be MUCH appreciated.

s0l

Got my support.
But it'll be a hard battle =/

imp

Aye, this looks like a damn good idea.

I might actually become able to afford to buy more than one cd a fortnight. Which is good. So yeah I'd like to help out in any and all ways.

}:>

Zaphod B

Sign me up, not sure how it can be done but no doubt we can come up with something if we put our minds to it.

ella minnow pea

yeah good idea
the music industry give out about sites like kazza, well if cds didnt cost so much i wouldn't use em
...........i think.

Karl Hungus

Count me in!

Dalamar

Excellent, though if the RIAA see this they'll hang, draw and quarter you before asking <band name here> to turn around and bend over. Count me in.

Duffman

*nod of approval*

Mystic Fibrosis

/me gives his stamp of approval™

sillisome fiend

oh good idea

shep the malevolent pixie

wonderful idea darling. 'tis a pity no one seems to know where to start though...:\ ah well, now that the basic idea is formed it's just a matter of time before we figure out where to begin. :]

and it's always gonna be the people at the top who rake it in as long as capitalism reigns.
[/minirant]

sHep :cool:

SweetBirdOfTruth

i'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here - cheper cd's or a bigger slice of the cake for the artists? if the former, then competition is the only answer, be in chain stores deep discounting em (and driving the small shops out of business?) or competition from online music. if the latter, then the indy route is the only way, more will oldham's and damien rice's.

which is it to be?

lordsippa

The whole idea is to NOT hit retailers or artists, but the record labels themselves. As it stands, there must be some horrifically unefficient measures in place to justify the costs they're dumping on the consumers.

As for the artists, it's no-one but the record labels place to decide how much to pay them, but I'm sure you'll agree that shifting the money lost from lowered sale prices to a cut in the artists royalties etc would be plain wrong. IMO the industry should clean up its act and stop letting us pay for their sloppiness (as regards high recording costs, which COULD be cut, as could promotional costs if there was less money spent on buying Top 40 spots - I can't say if this happens here, but it's well known in the States).

As far as other objectives go, I'd love to see indie labels supported, or at least eligible under certain circumstances for government grants - especially when it comes to promotion and distribution abroad. It's the government's responsabilty to aid the growth of indigenous industries and their expansion abroad. As it stands, smaller Irish labels are run by people taking HUGE risks with lots of money. I haven't completely researched this field (leaving and such), but afaik they're not elligible for any support (FÁS grants, Arts grants etc.). They don't improve (or at least directly improve) deprived areas, nor would I think they would fall under the heading of "art" as the arts commission sees it. But music IS art, and if the more artistic musicians can't get record deals, or can't sell their works through indie labels, they can't afford to continue producing their music. => the arts commission are FAILING to support budding artists, just as their seems to be no support for the businesses that release the albums. If the government supported the smaller labels they could support the artists better, sell the cds cheaper, and afford to expand their markets - not to mention promote their music.

As far as the economy goes, supporting this industry makes sense. If there was support for this industry, and it was able to compete internationally (or indeed just to compete effectively here in Ireland) there would be increased revenue coming into the country and less money being repatriated by large Japanese and American firms (Sony, etc). Not only that, but it would promote the Irish culture and encourage art.

Anyway, to answer your question in short, I don't think the government should meddle in the affairs of retailers or artists (who they already have a tax exemption on the earnings of). What I feel is at the heart of this issue is the abuse of the consumer by the larger labels and the lack of support for the smaller labels. Some form of investigation into why these cds are being priced so highly, perhaps legislation preventing this, and support for fledling Irish record producers. The only way that artists should be supported is that they don't get the raw end of the stick because of the lowering cost of cds (should that ever come about).

Hope I've been less vague this time.

Kopf

Nice idea and I hate to be a spoil-sport of sorts, but I can't see you getting very far. Bands sign up to contracts which limit them to the unfairly-sized slice of the pie that they're entitled to. Nobody's breaking the law and it would be very difficult to craft legislation to find anyone guilty of anything.

The situation may be totally unfair, but it's certainly not unjust.

lordsippa

Again, not looking to affect the bands etc. Just to see that measures are put in place to protect them as regards the labels taking out the changes on the artists. Protective measures, not altering anything in place as regards the artists.

As you've said they've signed the contracts. It's between them and the record labels, but if they suffer as a result of external action then that's just completely wrong. Hence, I'd only want to see these measures put in place to stop this movement damaging the musicians.

SweetBirdOfTruth

so you want to stop bands signing their lives away in stupid contracts, a la s-club 7, who are rumoured to have made in the low hundred thousands while their manager has pocketed several million, right? but what do you propose to do to educate them? the books are out there, there's all sorts of people offering advice all over the place, but still they sign, still they don't heed the advice offered, still they don't read the small print. what would you propose to do? you can lead a horse to water ...

in my experience, the biggest problem with the music industry is that bands want to play music and do nothing else, so as soon as the first shark comes along offering to take all the weight off their shoulders, they're only too happy to give him whatever he takes. not enough bands take the business side of the business seriously. change that attitude and you might achieve something.

as for the inefficiencies of the big music industry - how come small, indy labels charge more or less the same amount for a cd as the biggies do?

the biggies are losing money because they spend it unwisely grooming bands for several years, staking high to win high. look at robbie's eighty million, look at the cost of mariah carey.

lordsippa

Again, the issue isn't about the bands. The only thing I mentioned bands for was that if there WERE changes, they wouldn't suffer because of it.

As for indie labels charging the same - they can't afford to charge higher <who'd buy?> and they can't afford to charge less <bankruptcy?>. They're small scale outfits who just about get by. I'm talking about REAL indie here, not some of the larger "indie" labels, who are raking it in these days after expanding.

SweetBirdOfTruth

what do you think you can change then? do you think you can make it illegal for recording contracts to offer less than x% of net as royalty? do you think you can make it illegal for record contracts to stiff the band by charging against sales proceeds massive overheads that reduce the net to nothing? if you're not going to educate the bands and you're not going to change the price of cds, what are you going to do?

lordsippa

CD price changes ARE an objective. But there's nothing that we should (once this is up and running) be involved with the bands for. I don't care about the bands signing stupid contracts, that's business. The bands AREN'T an issue. So can we please forget about the bands? I only mentioned them in the "and hopefully if there's legislation to somehow keep an eye on cd prices and prevent the industry from screwing us over, there can be a clause protecting bands from being dropped as a result of this". Obviously, for any change to have such a huge effect it would have to be global, or at least beyond Ireland. So that's a FAR off idea. Right now, the main objective as I'd see it would be to support local labels with state funding and hence allow them to compete better with bigger labels <here AND abroad> and hence hopefully force the other labels to reduce prices as a result.

But yes, please, please, please drop the band issue. It's not an issue that could in anyway involve an interest group. It's just like signing any contract - read it through first, and if you don't understand it don't sign it. Oh and get a solicitor, or just some law student to help you out as regards interpretation.

SweetBirdOfTruth

state intervention - it's the national cure all, isn't it?

you admit the issue is global, you claim the issue is with the major labels yet your solution is to fund the hundreds of small, pokey, irish labels (hundreds is probably understating the number - is a while since i looked in detail, and they're even more prevalent than they sed to be).

wouldn't state intervention be anti-competitive? wouldn't the eu get a little bit upset about it? wouldn't it contravene binding trade agreements with america and japan? even if you get get it passed the eu and comply with trade-treaties, wouldn't a lot of people get a little bit pissed off that their tax euros were being spent to support the irish music industry? when hospitals are closing, roads are overcrowded and education is up the creek?

state intervention is not the answer - not for an industry like music. the only government intervention should be at eu level and should concern the ongoing cartel investigations.

if you want a model for bringing abour price decreases, look to the airline industry and look to the supermakets sector - competition is only solution to the problem you have identified.

you would have more impact in the music industry by getting people to stop paying ridiculously high prices for cds and concert tickets - but you've as much chance of achieving that as you have of getting drinkers to boycot bars until the price of pint is made affordable again.

lordsippa

Actually, I'm going to have to disagree with you. The arts commissions coffers are overflowing, they had millions of excess grant euros last year that they did nothing with and I can see the same happening again this year too. So why not put that money that's already allocated to some good use?

As for competition, yes. That's a wonderful idea. Let's put dozens on small shops out of business, and test companies like Golden Discs ability to stay afloat. Most likely such a business would be based abroad too, and I somehow doubt they're going to care about the albums that don't sell to well. So let's lose half those bands too? GREAT IDEA! Yes, let's get rid of those laws protecting the smaller grocery stores from underhand actions from Tescos, and Dunnes, etc. I mean they can all get jobs at their local bulk retail outfit right?

And how would supporting Irish business be against EU and American trade agreements? Ffs. It's every governments responsability to encourage growth in its indigenous industries, both as regards the Irish and foreign markets.

As for your point about the government having better things to spend its money on, I couldn't agree more - but you just have to look at the spike, the waterpark, and the (thankfully) fallen through plans for the "Bertie Bowl" to see that the government are more than happy to throw their money around everywhere they don't need to. Anyway, as I've stated, there is EXCESS grant funds already allocated to the arts commission. But no, musicians don't seem to be able to benefit from these grants. Because, obviously, music isn't art :rolleyes:

And please, can we not have this devolve into a bitchfest about what the government should be spending their money on. It's not an issue for this topic. What stands is that there are people who feel they are being ripped off by the record industry, and people who feel that the smaller Irish bands are having a hard time because the indie labels they're signed to can barely afford to release their albums in Dublin (again, this an issue of smaller label funding, not of the rights of the bands).

I could go on a rant about how the current situation for musicians is stifling artistic and experimental ideals. I could go on a rant about how supporting your own home firms makes economic sense. But I won't, because A). I'm pretty sure I already have, and . It would make for a hell of a boring read.

[edit] Just looking back over your post, you say I claim THE issue is a global one. I claimed A SINGLE issue was global. Not THE issue. There are many issues here. They all basically go towards improving the music industry, first off in Ireland (helping both the industry and the consumers), and hopefully set a precedent to allow for similar actions to succeed across Europe and the rest of the world. Whether one goal is acheived or all, I'll be happy, so long as an improvement is made. Walk before you run.

Zaphod B

You say indy labels charge the same for CDs as biggies... I have to wonder if these are actual indies or pseudo-indies. If real indy labels are charging you the same price for CDs as biggies then basically I think you're being screwed... I buy from an independent label and generally pay half the price I would for a normal CD in a shop.

lordsippa

And were you able to buy them in a big shop? Ok fair enough... they're a few quid cheaper if they're REAL indie etc. But they don't get distributed very widely. Which was one of the problems I mentioned. No artist can rightly make a living, or even supplement theirs, while on that kinda money. In many ways it forces the more interesting musicians to give up because they aren't getting anywhere.