Car dealer using SIMI forms when not SIMI registered

Sam_The_Dog · 23-08-2016 12:03PM #1

Hi,

I am new to this. But the below is basically the problem that I currently have.

I recently bought a car from a dealer. After a few days I noticed a fault with the engine. In order to get to the point of having them look at it I had to badger them with phone calls, and was always told, "such and such will ring" you back or "I can't handle your request". But I always ended up doing the chasing, eventually I got to the point where we reached an agreement to bring it in and have it assessed.

The car has been back with them twice now for what would seem to be major repair, the first time it was there for over a week, I away for this week and picked it up when I returned. The second time was yesterday, for a fault which I believe to be caused by the attempt to rectify the first fault, because it wasn't there beforehand, and it appeared the day after I picked the car up. This time it is apparently being sent to an authorised main dealer to be inspected.

After being entirely unhappy with the service received from the dealer, I decided to lodge a complaint with SIMI, whom I rang and was informed by them in writing that this dealer is 100% not a SIMI dealer and should not be using their forms. But they cannot deal with my complaint, that it is a matter between me and the dealer.

Has anyone else been in this situation or known of an experience like this? What are the legal issues here?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Mc Love · 23-08-2016 12:05PM

SIMI would have done nothing anyway - they work for the dealers not the general public

bazz26 · 23-08-2016 12:21PM

Maybe have a chat with the Citizen's Advice Bureau. Their legal advise is free and they may be able to advise if you have a chance of getting any recourse through the small claims court to have the garage resolve the car's issues.

Sam_The_Dog · 23-08-2016 12:30PM

Thanks, the issue with having them repair the car is that they have already tried and failed, and in the process of doing this they created a new problem. Which leads me to believe that they are completely incompetent.

Does using the simi forms when they are not a member not make all contracts related to the vehicle invalid? Surely there are legal issues here with regard to misrepresentation and false and misleading information.

biko · 23-08-2016 04:13PM

They are a real dealer yeah? With a business you went to?

As regards to the usage of SIMI forms. I suppose all you can do is inform SIMI in writing that dealer XYZ is using their forms and let them handle the rest - but then I'm not a lawyer..

Sam_The_Dog · 23-08-2016 06:51PM

biko wrote: »

They are a real dealer yeah? With a business you went to?

As regards to the usage of SIMI forms. I suppose all you can do is inform SIMI in writing that dealer XYZ is using their forms and let them handle the rest - but then I'm not a lawyer..

i have already informed Simi, who can only send a letter telling them to stop. The problem here is that they are part of a group with several premises. One part of the group is a member, the one i went to is not. They do not however have the address on the forms.

I am sure they will find some loophole.

Bigus · 23-08-2016 07:19PM

Are they refusing to repair the car now ?

Sam_The_Dog · 23-08-2016 08:06PM

They are sending it to a main dealer to have it inspected. I have informed them verbally and will do also in writing that I am unwilling to take the car back.

They have had the chance to repair and made a new problem, which actually sounds worse. They need a main dealer to investigate this problem . Which should be a good indicator of how competent their own mechanics are.

Ericdravancrow · 23-08-2016 08:11PM

It's a case of "goods not fit for purpose" demand your money back.

Bigus · 23-08-2016 08:47PM

Ericdravancrow wrote: »

It's a case of "goods not fit for purpose" demand your money back.

"Goods not fit for purpose" can be open to interpretation for second hand goods, could be dependent on the age of the vehicle.

I think , if the garage are prepared to fix the car, this doesn't apply (instant refund)even with a new car , depending on what's wrong with it I suppose.

There was somebody on here with a nearly new fiesta that the main dealer was finding hard to fix , but at least they got the loan of a car while it was being investigated.

OP. How old is the car and what's wrong with it ? Or what make is it ?

Sam_The_Dog · 23-08-2016 09:03PM

Car is 4 years old. Makes a rattling noise on startup, they attempted a fix by replacing the flywheel. Then it started to make a snapping/banging noise when started and changing gear, was also l leaking oil.

its basically because of this i have absolutely no faith in them to repair it correctly. And it seems that they have no confidence in their own technicians otherwise they wouldn't be sending it to a main dealer for repair.

in my mind, they had an opportunity to repair and messed it up, i was willing to accept the car back up until that point.
i just want my money back. Its just not worth the hassle.

Bigus · 23-08-2016 09:13PM

Fair enough you want your money back,but the law says they're entitled to repair it, as the new fiesta driver found out here on boards too, never mind a 4 year old car.

Any way good luck, either way.

Sam_The_Dog · 23-08-2016 09:29PM

The law states they are entitled to repair. As i mentioned above, they tried to but messed it up to such an extent that the car was worse after.

I doubt anyone would trust a place after that.

colm_mcm · 23-08-2016 09:30PM

You don't accept that a main dealer should have more specific knowledge on a brand they sell new, service every day, and receive bulletins direct from the manufacturer. You can hardly expect a used car garage to have main dealer level knowledge.
You are using the fact that they're getting a main dealer involved as a stuck to beat them with - which is a bit of a sh1tty attitude. Yes having an issue with a car isn't ideal, but you need to be reasonable too.

the paperwork thing is a little unusual, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. The SIMI is a lads club that prints order books and creates an impression of superiority in return for an annual fee. It is of little benefit to the consumer, the fact that the garage group is a member in one if its sister garages would be enough to tell me the books aren't stolen!

Hope it works out well for you, but take it handy in the meantime. The fact that they're actually doing something is promising.

Sam_The_Dog · 23-08-2016 10:04PM

I accept your point and so far I have been as reasonable as possible. The main dealer should have more knowledge that is obvious, but to accept a car back after having only had it a few weeks and having what I perceive to be major mechanical issues, regardless of who does the repairs, would be madness considering I will be paying it off for the next 3 to 4 years

colm_mcm · 23-08-2016 10:16PM

You've only had the car a few weeks, but the car is still 4 years old. If it were a new car it would clearly be a manufacturing fault and you could reasonably question your faith in the car/manufacturer. In this case, something has worn out, something was replaced which didn't fix the original fault but uncovered another one. It happens on used cars.

Not to belittle your opinion or what you're feeling or anything, but unless you are a mechanic or similar, your perception of what a major mechanical issue is may not match up with the reality of it. There may be a very simple solution to the issue.
As an example, you unplug one ignition coil on a car and it sounds like it's banjaxxed. Clearly not the solution here, but you get my point?

Bigus · 23-08-2016 10:51PM

How much cheaper was the car than a new version of the same ? , because that is relevant to how worn it can be if you only paid a fraction of the new cost, cost is even relevant to the claims court, notwithstanding that it has to be fit for purpose.

Fair enough motor dealers are no angels but A lot of people would never even consider buying a secondhand TV or washing machine, but with cars it's a different story because of the figures involved ,so we all have to consider secondhand , with all the issues that can bring.

however a secondhand car is not New, even if it's bloody expensive.

If you bought privately you'd be on your own with no hope of a fix or refund, so if they fix it or get a main dealer to fix it, what's the problem?

Keep us informed either way please.

Are you stuck without transport in the meantime ?

Sam_The_Dog · 24-08-2016 08:51AM

They gave me a car but only after i insisted i needed one to get to work. Having originally been told that they weren't able to do this.
As they are one of the largest dealers in the country, I felt I could trust them. But more fool me.

The simi thing may be down to registered address and company name, i accept that.

In the meantime i have done my own research by googling the original uk plate.
It is a former corporate lease/long term rental car. This was not disclosed.
I found it listed on several uk sites from prices ranging from 4000 - 9000.
I have 2 history check reports stating that the car has had 2 owners, advertised as one.

something here stinks, i accept i am partially at fault for not checking the details fully before agreeing to the purchase. But as i mentioned above i felt i could trust them as they are one of the largest dealers in the country.

Cerco · 24-08-2016 06:30PM

IMHO the vendor is trying hard to resolve your issue by sending it to a main dealer. They are / should be best placed to resolve the problem.
I think you should await the outcome of their diagnosis before jumping to any conclusions. Your perception of a major problem is just that , a perception, until you have more information.
While I understand your frustration I think I would wait. If the main dealer fails to resolve the issue then you would have a much stronger case.

The issue of using SIMI forms could be just be a case of using them for simplicity (instead of designing their own) However if they are representing themselves as SIMI members then that is a different story.

colm_mcm · 24-08-2016 08:53PM

most company cars are leased. no big deal.
to be honest none of what you found out should be of any concern. none of this would enitle you to a refund.

Sam_The_Dog · 24-08-2016 09:22PM

They were so far as I can tell deliberately misleading about their affiliation with SIMI and the history of the car.
Tried and failed to repair the car, clearly it has some sort of issue otherwise they wouldn't be forwarding it to someone else to try and fix.
Resisted most of my attempts to get them to reassess the vehicle and have it checked out by them as they clearly state under the warranty that I should do.

I admit I have been naive to a certain extant. But i am fully aware of my rights under consumer law, and one of them is to get a refund. Its my money they have, and i am entitled under law to ask for it back.

bazz26 · 24-08-2016 09:29PM

Sam_The_Dog wrote: »

They were so far as I can tell deliberately misleading about their affiliation with SIMI and the history of the car.
Tried and failed to repair the car, clearly it has some sort of issue otherwise they wouldn't be forwarding it to someone else to try and fix.
Resisted most of my attempts to get them to reassess the vehicle and have it checked out by them as they clearly state under the warranty that I should do.

I admit I have been naive to a certain extant. But i am fully aware of my rights under consumer law, and one of them is to get a refund. Its my money they have, and i am entitled under law to ask for it back.

I think you're being a bit unfair here. They are sending it to a main dealer to fix it because they don't have the expertise to fix it.

What would you have them do instead? From the sound of it you seem to want a refund no matter happens now.

Sam_The_Dog · 24-08-2016 09:37PM

That is exactly the stance i am taking.

Its easy to say when its not your money to let them get it fixed and take it back and pay for it for the next few years.

bazz26 · 24-08-2016 10:00PM

It's nothing to do with who's money it is. There are far worse slippery chancers out there who would have shut their door on your face. Good luck though, I hope it works out for you.

colm_mcm · 24-08-2016 10:05PM

Sam_The_Dog wrote: »

... But i am fully aware of my rights under consumer law, and one of them is to get a refund. Its my money they have, and i am entitled under law to ask for it back.

You need to brush up on consumer law.

Sam_The_Dog · 24-08-2016 10:58PM

Is it the part about misleading information or defective products? I've read through them, I'm not one to copy and paste paragraphs to try and myself look smart. But i know enough to know that i am well within my rights to look for a refund.

I also thank you for your input, but at the end of the day I came on here looking for advice not to be insulted or start an argument.

colm_mcm · 24-08-2016 11:05PM

Did I insult you? I am simply pointing out that you need to re-read what you think you saw about being entitled to a refund. It isn't an automatic right, and the seller has the option to repair.

Maybe you'd prefer everyone to tell yer absolutely right and the bad man sold you an awful car and of course you'll get your money back from the dodgy dealer.
You can cherry pick whatever bits of sale of goods act you like the look of, but you didn't buy a new product.

Sam_The_Dog · 24-08-2016 11:13PM

As i stated previously they have had the opportunity to repair and failed. Therefore they have two options left, refund or replacement. The law doesn't state how many attempts at repair they should get.

colm_mcm · 24-08-2016 11:17PM

That's exactly it, the law doesn't say they get only one opportunity to repair, especially if there are seperate issues like the one that cropped up after the first repair.

Even in a new car, you could have recurring issues and not get a refund.
Not telling you this to discourage you from trying whatever you think is right, just hoping you really know what your rights are and how these things pan out in reality.

Sam_The_Dog · 24-08-2016 11:31PM

Even though it was the result of the attempt to the repair the first issue that created the second. In my book that's enough.
Replaced a dual mass flywheel and other related components and a day or two later the car is audibly banging when changing gear and starting and also leaking oil. Then pass it on to someone else to try and repair their damage.
I'm supposed to be ok that i guess,

colm_mcm · 24-08-2016 11:45PM

It's not the best situation, but you can't confuse your wants with your rights, or a warranty being a guarantee that the car will never have a problem.

Ideally they'd have gotten the repair right first time, but stuff goes wrong, maybe the part was the wrong one, maybe the issue was misdiagnosed from the outset, maybe the part was faulty, maybe it was installed incorrectly, who knows. What matters is a main dealer is fixing it at great expense to the garage and no expense to you. You will have a car with new parts that will probably be in better condition than the other cars you'd be looking at if you got your refund.

Sam_The_Dog · 25-08-2016 06:48AM

I understand that, but leaving aside the defect they still provided misleading information on numerous aspects of the car and that is cover under consumer law.

Aside from that since the end of July, when i picked up the car i have had it for about 14 days. The rest of the time it has been back with the dealer. I left it back on Monday, it was supposed to go to the ford dealer that day. and i have still not heard back from either the dealer or the ford garage, who I contacted directly on Tuesday, who hadn't gotten the car as i was told they would have. They were also given a mobile number to ring, that was not mine even though i specifically requested that they give my contact details.
Is that still acceptable practice?

Sam_The_Dog · 25-08-2016 12:55PM

I just rang the main dealer, who have stated they inspected the cat yesterday and returned it the people i bought the car off. Without attempting any repairs.

I asked to be emailed a copy of their observations or an inspection report. They wouldn't give these or send it to me. "its a matter between you and the dealer, i suggest you contact them" was basically the response.

I am so fed up and angry.

racso1975 · 25-08-2016 01:19PM

Sam_The_Dog wrote: »

I just rang the main dealer, who have stated they inspected the cat yesterday and returned it the people i bought the car off. Without attempting any repairs.

I asked to be emailed a copy of their observations or an inspection report. They wouldn't give these or send it to me. "its a matter between you and the dealer, i suggest you contact them" was basically the response.

I am so fed up and angry.

probably a data protection issue and they dont want to bite the hand that feeds them

bazz26 · 25-08-2016 01:30PM

racso1975 wrote: »

probably a data protection issue and they dont want to bite the hand that feeds them

The OP did not bring the car to the main dealer so he/she is not their customer. The dealer that the OP bought the car from brought to the main dealer. That is why the main dealer won't discuss it with the OP. The main dealer has given their assessment to the other dealer so it is they who should be informing the OP what is wrong with the car and what they are going to do to sort it.

lawred2 · 25-08-2016 01:31PM

Sam_The_Dog wrote: »

Hi,

I am new to this. But the below is basically the problem that I currently have.

I recently bought a car from a dealer. After a few days I noticed a fault with the engine. In order to get to the point of having them look at it I had to badger them with phone calls, and was always told, "such and such will ring" you back or "I can't handle your request". But I always ended up doing the chasing, eventually I got to the point where we reached an agreement to bring it in and have it assessed.

The car has been back with them twice now for what would seem to be major repair, the first time it was there for over a week, I away for this week and picked it up when I returned. The second time was yesterday, for a fault which I believe to be caused by the attempt to rectify the first fault, because it wasn't there beforehand, and it appeared the day after I picked the car up. This time it is apparently being sent to an authorised main dealer to be inspected.

After being entirely unhappy with the service received from the dealer, I decided to lodge a complaint with SIMI, whom I rang and was informed by them in writing that this dealer is 100% not a SIMI dealer and should not be using their forms. But they cannot deal with my complaint, that it is a matter between me and the dealer.

Has anyone else been in this situation or known of an experience like this? What are the legal issues here?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

being or not being a member of the SIMI makes no difference to your rights as a consumer..

Sam_The_Dog · 25-08-2016 02:03PM

But misrepresenting themselves as being a member of an organisation/group, and using that groups invoices and terms of sales. That is covered under misleading information under consumer law.

Also to bazz, i accept your point, it may very well be the case. The dealer haven't yet contacted me, and i am loathe to contact them at this point.

bazz26 · 25-08-2016 03:13PM

Sam_The_Dog wrote: »

But misrepresenting themselves as being a member of an organisation/group, and using that groups invoices and terms of sales. That is covered under misleading information under consumer law.

Also to bazz, i accept your point, it may very well be the case. The dealer haven't yet contacted me, and i am loathe to contact them at this point.

You may have to keep on their case if you want some sort of result. You need to be a thorn in their side otherwise they will just keep putting it on the long finger in the hope you just get fed up and go away. Phone calls, emails won't work in these cases, you need to show up regularly unannounced and start applying deadlines. I know in reality you may not have the time to do that but it may really be the only way to get anything done.

Sam_The_Dog · 29-08-2016 07:38PM

At this stage these guys have had the car for a week and i have had zero contact with them.
The insurance on the car they gave expired at 4pm on Friday, i extended this to Saturday and reverted back to my old car.
If they don't contact me, does that look worse for them when i pursue legal action?

bazz26 · 29-08-2016 07:42PM

As I said in my previous post, you need to be on their case constantly so that they just want you out of their hair. If you wait for them to contact you then you could be here till Christmas.

acronym Chilli · 30-08-2016 08:46AM

Sam_The_Dog wrote: »

At this stage these guys have had the car for a week and i have had zero contact with them.
The insurance on the car they gave expired at 4pm on Friday, i extended this to Saturday and reverted back to my old car.
If they don't contact me, does that look worse for them when i pursue legal action?

as bazz26 says, keep on their case or you'll get nowhere.

From legal action point of view: I'm not sure how much that matters. What you need to do is start logging every contact, call, visit, email, etc., in a notebook. Just them not contacting you isn't so bad (they'll say "we didn't realise it was so urgent", you'll be asked "did you call them to remind them", if you say "no", then it probably wasn't so urgent. If you pull notebook and say "i phoned at 9:44 on 30th August, spoke to ... he said, etc., I called back at 14.00 on 2nd September, left voicemail, called again at 16.42 on 2nd Sept, spoke with ... said he hadn't picked up voicemail, ..."

But more than the value for legal action, the record becomes a useful tool to make sure you keep the pressure on, and you can use it to add further pressure: "I called you at 9.44 on 30th August and you said..., now we're talking again on... "etc.,

Sam_The_Dog · 30-08-2016 09:31AM

acronym Chilli wrote: »

as bazz26 says, keep on their case or you'll get nowhere.

From legal action point of view: I'm not sure how much that matters. What you need to do is start logging every contact, call, visit, email, etc., in a notebook. Just them not contacting you isn't so bad (they'll say "we didn't realise it was so urgent", you'll be asked "did you call them to remind them", if you say "no", then it probably wasn't so urgent. If you pull notebook and say "i phoned at 9:44 on 30th August, spoke to ... he said, etc., I called back at 14.00 on 2nd September, left voicemail, called again at 16.42 on 2nd Sept, spoke with ... said he hadn't picked up voicemail, ..."

But more than the value for legal action, the record becomes a useful tool to make sure you keep the pressure on, and you can use it to add further pressure: "I called you at 9.44 on 30th August and you said..., now we're talking again on... "etc.,

so far i have noted all calls and times and what was discussed. They have no listed emails that i can find to send an email to. I have sent a letter & also instructed a solicitor to send one on my behalf.

They said they would call me last Tuesday, a week later i still haven't received a call. From my point of view that looks worse on them than me, I'm put off chasing them up, because they have done nothing but fob me off with lies and get aggressive when i push them. Its hard to remain calm.

Nuw · 31-08-2016 02:44PM

I understand the anger, we've all had bad experiences like this.

In fairness to them, they did try to fix the issue (it would appear badly, but that's not the point), when they realised it was over their head, they turned to a main dealer instead of trying a "that'll do" which, in my eyes, is in their credit.

Now, it would appear you've been mislead on the product, and that you paid for something you haven't had the use of for quite some time. On top of this, you've been told to f off when pressing the matter.

I'd write everything down (as mentioned), and pressure them on the phone (once per day, not more), and here comes the difficult part, try to remain calm when you talk to them, state the facts alone and try to leave the anger out of your dealings with them. If nothing moves, seek legal advice (if not already done) and take it from there.

Anyway, good luck and let us know how you fare.

Sam_The_Dog · 01-09-2016 11:33AM

I have done all of the above. I have sent a letter and also got a solicitor to send one.
The main dealer didn't do any repair work, i also asked them not to attempt any repair without contacting and telling me what needed to be done. Which i think was the right thing to do. From what they told me when I rang, they had the car for about half a day before sending it back, that was last Wednesday.
Since then, the dealer has agreed in principal to give me my money back and has also said they have instructed the HP provider to cancel the finance.
Do i hold onto the log book until the money hits my account? i have to go up to them tomorrow

Nuw · 01-09-2016 12:24PM

Sam_The_Dog wrote: »

Do i hold onto the log book until the money hits my account? i have to go up to them tomorrow

I would.
However, your solicitor might advice differently on this, since you have him, might as well give him a quick call, see what his opinion is on the matter.

Sam_The_Dog · 06-09-2016 10:30AM

Nuw wrote: »

I would.
However, your solicitor might advice differently on this, since you have him, might as well give him a quick call, see what his opinion is on the matter.

I left it back on Friday, was told id have the refund by Wednesday. I git the amount i paid in cash back as a transfer today, i am still waiting on the amount i paid by card.

i returned the tax book etc, and signed the forms. The car was back for sale Friday evening. still Advertised as 1 owner, can these guys be reported to the ccpc or some other body? As they are deliberately misleading consumers with this type of behaviour.

Nuw · 06-09-2016 11:05AM

The card amount will probably take a couple of days depending on your bank, this is not unusual. Sometimes takes up to 3 working days. I wouldn't sweat on that 'til the end of the week tbh.

As for them putting it back for sale... well I guess that's a different story... I wouldn't be too sure as to where to report this, maybe someone else can advise?

Or maybe, given the circumstances maybe a Mod would allow you to name them here?

acronym Chilli · 07-09-2016 09:32AM

Sam_The_Dog wrote: »

I left it back on Friday, was told id have the refund by Wednesday. I git the amount i paid in cash back as a transfer today, i am still waiting on the amount i paid by card.

i returned the tax book etc, and signed the forms. The car was back for sale Friday evening. still Advertised as 1 owner, can these guys be reported to the ccpc or some other body? As they are deliberately misleading consumers with this type of behaviour.

You've done really well to get back what you have done, I'm surprised. Garage probably is pretty confident of re-selling it and that the problems are fixable.

RE the number of owners thing, I don't know what the actual procedures regarding log-book will be, but really you shouldn't count as an owner. To use a marriage analogy: you've essentially looked to have the marriage annulled, like it never happened, not gotten a divorce. I'd say just put it all behind you to be honest.

stimpson · 07-09-2016 10:20PM

acronym Chilli wrote: »

You've done really well to get back what you have done, I'm surprised. Garage probably is pretty confident of re-selling it and that the problems are fixable.

RE the number of owners thing, I don't know what the actual procedures regarding log-book will be, but really you shouldn't count as an owner. To use a marriage analogy: you've essentially looked to have the marriage annulled, like it never happened, not gotten a divorce. I'd say just put it all behind you to be honest.

This can be done. I returned a car before when it turned out to be two tax bands higher than advertised (genuine mistake as it was a UK import and emissions were different) they can undo the sale with Shannon.

acronym Chilli · 07-09-2016 11:08PM

stimpson wrote: »

This can be done. I returned a car before when it turned out to be two tax bands higher than advertised (genuine mistake as it was a UK import and emissions were different) they can undo the sale with Shannon.

Sounds like common-sense, surprisingly! (for a bureaucracy) and in this situation I'd consider it legitimate

Car dealer using SIMI forms when not SIMI registered

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