Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

smurfjed · 14-04-2017 10:15AM

So why not fly at a height safely above all this and only decent when you have to.

Due to overcast CLOUD coverage. As you get closer to your destination you still have to descend but now you are doing in with terrain surrounding you.

smurfjed · 14-04-2017 10:15AM

So why not fly at a height safely above all this and only decent when you have to.

Due to overcast CLOUD coverage. As you get closer to your destination you still have to descend but now you are doing it with terrain surrounding you.

Field east · 14-04-2017 10:18AM

ectoraige wrote: »

With a cloud base of 300-400ft, flying at 200 feet seems reasonable. The second page of the route guide wasn't published but it may be that minimums weren't clearly highlighted.

If it was flying on auto-pilot, what has the cloud base got to do with it? What if the cloud base was at 150ft or even lower?

wotswattage · 14-04-2017 10:25AM

Storm 10 wrote: »

RTE RADIO 1 now Sean O Rourke show

Some 'expert' Graham Liddy was on talking about it taking several hours to find Captain Fitzpatrick... That should be put to bed by now.

The report says it took 3 minutes from when R118 arrived on scene to locating her. That was still approx 90 minutes after the accident but not several hours as all the press were all saying back along.

Means Of Escape · 14-04-2017 10:25AM

smurfjed wrote: »

Then please give another method for a rescue helicopter to transition from IFR to VFR with an overcast cloud base of 300 feet?

Remain at a higher altitude until closer to destination during nighttime manoeuvres where visual aids are severely limited

Spatial disorientation factored here .

smurfjed · 14-04-2017 10:26AM

These are not aircraft operating into airports with ground based navigation, they must be able to see where they are going and follow the applicable visual flight rules. If the cloud base was 150 feet and their SOP's allowed them to descend to 200, they wouldn't have seen the ground and would have had to climb and cancel their planned refuelling.

TheChizler · 14-04-2017 10:27AM

Field east wrote: »

If it was flying on auto-pilot, what has the cloud base got to do with it? What if the cloud base was at 150ft or even lower?

They were going to transition to manual flight soon enough. Need to be out in the open for that basically.

zuutroy · 14-04-2017 10:35AM

smurfjed wrote: »

These are not aircraft operating into airports with ground based navigation, they must be able to see where they are going and follow the applicable visual flight rules. If the cloud base was 150 feet and their SOP's allowed them to descend to 200, they wouldn't have seen the ground and would have had to climb and cancel their planned refuelling.

Does the 5km VFR visibility not apply to them?

ForestFire · 14-04-2017 10:36AM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

The EO/IR camera was used by the winch operator and identified the obstacle 13 seconds before the initial impact. That same display was available to the pilots if they had selected it. (Par 3.4)

Razor44 wrote: »

Having read the report something came to mind. The call out from the rear crew of 'island ahead come right' was met with a call for clarification (correctly), however, when clarified, the avoidance measure taken was to input the direction change into the auto pilot.

Is this not exactly the sort of situation that "children of the magenta line" highlighted?

I don't mean this as a slight upon the crew but more the issue's surrounding automation.

I guess I'm just annoyed that it was spotted but it was to late.

One other point, someone mentioned would/could there be legal action regarding the omission of the island from the mapping software. Potentially yes. If it was reported and flaged as an issue. Who would be liable is pure speculation not worth entering into. But to rule out a civil action is unfortunately misguided.

To follow on from these points, and I am aware of all the other short comings in the Databases, procedure etc highlighted in the report.

What is the distance perception on the EO/IR camera. Did the winch operator understand the distance of the island from the screen, is it possible to understand?

When the presence of the island was highlighted and change of direction required, would the pilot not switch to the same EO/IR camera to understand the situation clearly themselves? Did they have the time in any case to do this?

TomOnBoard · 14-04-2017 10:39AM

smurfjed wrote: »

Completely different things. NVG would also provide them with instrument readings to enable them to fly and view, rather than just focus on a screen

2 questions arise for me on this. a) In your opinion would the use of NVG have shown the rock earlier than it was visible on the EO/IR display? I'm asking from a technology standpoint. b) Was the rock avoidable to an experienced pilot if s/he were heading for it at 75kts and at 200' and saw it for the first time, not expecting to be there, 13 seconds out?

wotswattage · 14-04-2017 10:40AM

smurfjed wrote: »

Then please give another method for a rescue helicopter to transition from IFR to VFR with an overcast cloud base of 300 feet?

By planning/following a route solely over water without obstacles the whole way up to the point at which you take control.

I know that sounds simplistic but it seems the let down was correctly performed over clear water then a route over terrain was followed and a combination of things being either misinterpreted or taken for granted led to nobody on board realising how big a problem they were facing until too late...

Wombatman · 14-04-2017 10:41AM

Any information on the condition and number of warning lights around the lighthouse complex on Blackrock? Surely there were red blinking lights all the way up the tower and around the complex to warn aircraft of a tall structure.

gctest50 · 14-04-2017 10:43AM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

The EO/IR camera was used by the winch operator and identified the obstacle 13 seconds before the initial impact. ...

The winchman started playing at navigation and sent them straight into the island.

Rear Crew channel :

20.02:46.767: "K....looking at an island just in, directly ahead of us now guys, you want to come right [ Commanders Name]

2.02:52.035: twenty degrees right
yeah

That helicopter very nearly made it

Climbs at about 1500 feet per minute

User has been given some time of for this and other posts - you can stop reporting it now although I'm glad to see how many did!

ForestFire · 14-04-2017 10:43AM

smurfjed wrote: »

These are not aircraft operating into airports with ground based navigation, they must be able to see where they are going and follow the applicable Â visual flight rules. If the cloud base was 150 feet and their SOP's allowed them to descend to 200, they wouldn't have seen the ground and would have had to climb and cancel their planned refuelling.

This is something I have always wondered since the R111 tragedy.
They made a number of failed attempts to land of Waterford Airport, but had to abandon due to poor visibility, and try to land/ditch by Tramore Beech.

With the accuracy of GPS these days, and in an emergency situation, could a helicopter just hover over a "know clear area" and descend slowing. Especially over airport runways etc where there are large clearances?

I am aware this does not R116 tragedy.

smurfjed · 14-04-2017 10:47AM

http://bristowgroup.com/uk-sar/sar-fleet/

Sikorsky S-92
The S-92 helicopter is the most advanced aircraft in Sikorsky's civil product line, with the necessary speed, capacity and operational range to meet the needs of the UK search and rescue environment. Bristow’s S-92 SAR aircraft are certified for night vision goggles (NVG) and the “glass cockpit” is certified NVG compatible.

TomOnBoard · 14-04-2017 10:51AM

gctest50 wrote: »

The winchman started playing at navigation and sent them straight into the island

Seems harsh...

Bigbok · 14-04-2017 10:51AM

I fly on the S93 twice a month to the oil rig and I have never been 200ft?if flying between rigs we aren't allowed below 400 or 600 ft?when coming in to land at the heliport in sumbrugh we are well above 600ft until we are literally above our landing area before coming down,so what were they doing 8km out at 200ft???

gctest50 · 14-04-2017 10:54AM

Wombatman wrote: »

Any information on the condition and number of warning lights around the lighthouse complex on Blackrock? Surely there were red blinking lights all the way up the tower and around the complex to warn aircraft of a tall structure.

The Operators Route Guide identifies the lighthouse

The Operator’s Route Guide for Blacksod includes an associated separate page of text .......

This page identified a lighthouse at Black Rock with an associated height of 310

Panrich · 14-04-2017 10:54AM

gctest50 wrote: »

The winchman started playing at navigation and sent them straight into the island.

That helicopter very nearly made it

Climbs at about 1500 feet per minute

The winch man was the only one who saw the danger and tried to alert the pilots. The fact that there was so little time to react was the issue. I'm not sure from where you got the impression that without his warning they'd have been fine.

Mebuntu · 14-04-2017 10:55AM

Just a couple of points

It is accepted that neither the crew nor the EGPWS system were aware that Black Rock Island was going to be a factor in the approach. However, on looking at the APBSS Route Guide (Figure 4) the number 282 is shown at BLKMO (red dot). Am I correct in assuming that this indicates that there is something at or very close to BLKMO that is 282ft? Why else would it be shown? If so, when they selected direct to BLKMO from the Guide, the 282 does not seem to have been queried nor taken into consideration and they continued below it to 200ft in the normal way to transition to visual.

Looking at figure 6 it seems to me that is debatable whether a 20 degree right course change would have got them clear. If the call from behind when the island "directly ahead" was sighted at such a late stage had instead been CLIMB they might just have made it.

Hindsight, of course, is a great thing.

Gaoth Laidir · 14-04-2017 10:55AM

gctest50 wrote: »

The winchman started playing at navigation and sent them straight into the island.

Idiotic post of the week. How is warning someone of a hazard ahead and telling them to take an evasive maneuver "sending them straight to it"?

damienirel · 14-04-2017 10:55AM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Seems harsh...

Very harsh! - How can anybody come to that conclusion without some major jumps?

faoiarvok · 14-04-2017 10:56AM

Bigbok wrote: »

I fly on the S93 twice a month to the oil rig and I have never been 200ft?if flying between rigs we aren't allowed below 400 or 600 ft?when coming in to land at the heliport in sumbrugh we are well above 600ft until we are literally above our landing area before coming down,so what were they doing 8km out at 200ft???

Many rigs have a certified precision approach which gives vertical as well as lateral guidance.

R116 needed to fly a visual approach to the lighthouse, therefore they needed to get into visual conditions (below the clouds) to fly it

gctest50 · 14-04-2017 11:07AM

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Idiotic post of the week. How is warning someone of a hazard ahead and telling them to take an evasive maneuver "sending them straight to it"?

Evasive maneuver ?

Telling them to go 20 degrees right would have sent them into a slightly more southerly part of the island

Panrich · 14-04-2017 11:09AM

I reckon the question of whether BLKMO is Blackrock could be resolved from the cvr timings. At 02:02:13 they are 1.3 miles from BLKMO. How far they would have travelled in the remaining 47 seconds of flight would tell whether they had reached it based on the reported speed.

Storm 10 · 14-04-2017 11:18AM

Have listened to Rescue 115 and 118 making approaches to UHG in poor weather, they fly out over the Bay and descend to 200 feet and follow the River Corrib to the hospital

wotswattage · 14-04-2017 11:18AM

gctest50 wrote: »

Evasive maneuver ?

Telling them to go 20 degrees right would have sent them into a slightly more southerly part of the island

And they probably would have missed the island as it's lower almost everywhere except where they hit it. If they were all aware of what was actually happening early enough...

damienirel · 14-04-2017 11:22AM

wotswattage wrote: »

And they probably would have missed the island as it's lower almost everywhere except where they hit it. If they were all aware of what was actually happening early enough...

I think gctest is saying(correct me if I'm wrong) they could have climbed as the heli was very powerful. Either way it was more than likely too late by the time they knew island was there.

de biz · 14-04-2017 11:24AM

irishgeo wrote: »

Why would the Sligo helicopter need to refuel at Blacksod. It would have only taken off with a full tank.

To answer Your Assertion IRISHGEO

From AAIU Preliminary Report:

2 HISTORY OF THE MISSION

At approximately 22.28 hrs, R118 departed Sligo for B
lacksod, to refuel prior to routing to
the FV
.
R118 landed at Blacksod Lighthouse at 23.11 hrs and, following refuelling, it
departed at 23.18
hrs
.

gctest50 · 14-04-2017 11:24AM

It could climb at about 1500 feet per minute

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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