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Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

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Comments

  • #452
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    I think theirs more than jealousy to be honest. Take for instance a large traveller wedding/communion. I find them totally tacky and cheap looking and most people I know feels the same. (Each to their own regarding taste) Their expensive tough and how a family who apparently is on social welfare or has little money, angers people because they fear the money comes from criminality(Burglaries/robberies) IE making people terrified of living in their own homes!
    And it probably does come from illegal activity, be that violent crime or undeclared income.

    I think there's a risk that those of us who seem to be 'arguing the travellers' side' are detached or in denial from reality. When I see local traveller families, whom I know don't work for a living, holding elaborate celebrations, I think exactly what you have described.


    At the risk of repeating myself, and I'm conscious that I have been doing so, we have to stop restating the problem over and over again, if we're never going to agree to some solution that we would all like to see arise.

    So many people are saying what the problem is, and they're right. But what do you personally propose?


  • #453
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,309 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    seamus wrote: »
    One of the most telling examples of this refusal to self-examine came in the Carrickmines fire, when not a single advocacy group pointed to Traveller culture as a contributory factor in those ten deaths.

    It was all about trying to blame a council for the conditions, blaming local communities for being "unfriendly". Never once did we hear Pavee Point or another traveller say, "Hey, maybe if these people didn't refuse the housing that had made available to them because it's not part of their culture, they wouldn't have died all crammed together in a little flammable box?".

    When it comes to talking about Traveller issues, culture is for some reason, never the problem. Apparently it's the sacred cow that must never be touched, and the onus is on the rest of us to make concessions (financial, legal and social) for that culture, no matter how archaic or ridiculous that culture may be.

    We're never going to get past this impasse until traveller groups are willing to step up and work to change the most toxic and anti-social parts of traveller culture. The rest of society has done everything they can.

    Wasn't it one of the reasons that these Travellers were crammed in Carrickmines was due to a feud with another family?


  • #454
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    While I've spoken with many travellers, I've never once had a conversation with a Traveller in my life. (Yes, there's a badly needed grammar lesson there.)

    I doubt my experience is unusual. This is why I've never quite got the venom against them, which is clearly not just on grounds of littering (plenty of settled people do that) or opposition to people who avoid paying tax (the same people aren't exactly conspicuous in their opposition to corporate tax dodging, businesses not declaring income, etc). It couldn't be jealousy, for all the obvious educational, socio-economic and cultural advantages which even the poorest settled person has over the majority of Travellers.

    I'd have to go out of my way to find them, even if I am conscious of isolated farming relatives who fear their arrival on their property.


  • #455
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,686 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    And it probably does come from illegal activity, be that violent crime or undeclared income.

    I think there's a risk that those of us who seem to be 'arguing the travellers' side' are detached or in denial from reality. When I see local traveller families, whom I know don't work for a living, holding elaborate celebrations, I think exactly what you have described.


    At the risk of repeating myself, and I'm conscious that I have been doing so, we have to stop restating the problem over and over again, if we're never going to agree to some solution that we would all like to see arise.

    So many people are saying what the problem is, and they're right. But what do you personally propose?

    As I said I don't know how to fix the issue to be honest. Take for instance My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding.(Such programs have done the community no favors in my opinion) The lady on that always says you never ask a traveller about money. If they were honest about it maybe that would help or if they lived within their means. It would take a lot of work from both sides.


  • #456
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    As I said I don't know how to fix the issue to be honest. Take for instance My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding.(Such programs have done the community no favors in my opinion) The lady on that always says you never ask a traveller about money. If they were honest about it maybe that would help or if they lived within their means. It would take a lot of work from both sides.
    My biggest problem with shows like that is that travellers are never asked about their income. It isn't that I have a personal interest in shaming them into admissions of illegal behaviour (which we all know does happen), but maybe if such admissions occured we might all be provoked, both travellers and settled people, into a serious debate about how to solve this unacceptable situation.


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  • #457
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    While I've spoken with many travellers, I've never once had a conversation with a Traveller in my life. (Yes, there's a badly needed grammar lesson there.)

    I doubt my experience is unusual. This is why I've never quite got the venom against them, which is clearly not just on grounds of littering (plenty of settled people do that) or opposition to people who avoid paying tax (the same people aren't exactly conspicuous in their opposition to corporate tax dodging, businesses not declaring income, etc). It couldn't be jealousy, for all the obvious educational, socio-economic and cultural advantages which even the poorest settled person has over the majority of Travellers.

    I'd have to go out of my way to find them, even if I am conscious of isolated farming relatives who fear their arrival on their property.



    The venom probably isnt against them personally, its against this system that we've all fallen into where they are happy to continue with the same dead end lifestyle they lead and some of us are happy to indulge it and completely absolve them of any responsibility. If it was a case of paying tutors to school alot of them on a one to one basis it would be well worth it from a taxpayers point of view to get them out of this ridiculous way of life. Instead we will all just mozy on and one is too look at, speak of, or touch the elephant in the room


  • #458
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,309 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

    But more fundamentally than that, I'd like if we could try to understand the practical causes of problems in the traveller community.


    This has been repeated in this thread numerous times for you. At the core of it its the total lack of respect and value of education. If traveller children are not educated to the same degree as other normal Irish children, you can see what happens. They fall out of the system very early, and end up following their closest peer group in whatever activities they pursue, much of it illegal and anti-social.

    The state is not going to be stepping in anytime soon and taking these kids into social care, so we are left really with the only option of the responsibility for change being put on the travellers communities door. Their leaders need a sea change in thought where they need to clearly lay out a roadmap of how to break the cycle of violence and crime. Instead of blaming it all on the settled community.

    Actually, that word settled community encapsulates the issue. What the hell is a settled person anyway? A person who lives in a house, works and pays tax normally, I suppose? Like most normal people around the western world. The term settled is not known in the vernacular of Germany or France or Canada, yet it is here. Why is that?

    The word settled came from the lexicon of the traveller community, not the other way around. They want to live apart from the rest of society, but cry wolf then when they don't get what they want.


  • #459
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    markodaly wrote: »
    This has been repeated in this thread numerous times for you. At the core of it its the total lack of respect and value of education. If traveller children are not educated to the same degree as other normal Irish children, you can see what happens. They fall out of the system very early, and end up following their closest peer group in whatever activities they pursue, much of it illegal and anti-social.

    The state is not going to be stepping in anytime soon and taking these kids into social care, so we are left really with the only option of the responsibility for change being put on the travellers communities door. Their leaders need a sea change in thought where they need to clearly lay out a roadmap of how to break the cycle of violence and crime. Instead of blaming it all on the settled community.

    Actually, that word settled community encapsulates the issue. What the hell is a settled person anyway? A person who lives in a house, works and pays tax normally, I suppose? Like most normal people around the western world. The term settled is not known in the vernacular of Germany or France or Canada, yet it is here. Why is that?

    The word settled came from the lexicon of the traveller community, not the other way around. They want to live apart from the rest of society, but cry wolf then when they don't get what they want.


    And there is where the real root of the issue lies. This is where the fúckarsery comes in. They are led by utter dumbasses from Pavee point and that jackass from Love/Hate is continously using propaganda, playing the victim and all sorts of b0llocksology. No chance of an intelligent debate whatsoever. Worse still, the traveller issue is a complete no go area to our own leaders who are shackled by neo liberalist hypocritical clowns in the media.

    The one shoot of hope is that more like Andy lee will come forward and build those bridges. A man who speaks reasonably and intelligently.


  • #460
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,686 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    My biggest problem with shows like that is that travellers are never asked about their income. It isn't that I have a personal interest in shaming them into admissions of illegal behaviour (which we all know does happen), but maybe if such admissions occured we might all be provoked, both travellers and settled people, into a serious debate about how to solve this unacceptable situation.

    In all honest I'd love to see travellers accepted more in society, I think a good spokes person from the community is needed for starters. John Connors doesn't help them from what I've heard of him.
    Education is also important. I'm not referring to have maths and sciences drilled into everybody but it's important everybody can find a niche for themselves and if they need help from the state during periods in their life then that's fine. Primary education has improved a lot but things seem to go down hill in secondary. Why is this? Just from people I know the support from home kind of stopped in secondary.
    Same goes regarding spending. You've just got to get a few show you can have nice weddings and communions without spending a fortune but I haven't seen these happen to be honest.


  • #461
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    In all honest I'd love to see travellers accepted more in society, I think a good spokes person from the community is needed for starters. John Connors doesn't help them from what I've heard of him.
    Education is also important. I'm not referring to have maths and sciences drilled into everybody but it's important everybody can find a niche for themselves and if they need help from the state during periods in their life then that's fine. Primary education has improved a lot but things seem to go down hill in secondary. Why is this? Just from people I know the support from home kind of stopped in secondary.
    Same goes regarding spending. You've just got to get a few show you can have nice weddings and communions without spending a fortune but I haven't seen these happen to be honest.


    I will say that the education system presently in place is flawed for everyone but that is my own personal view and a discussion to be had another day.

    Connors is an idiot. Yes he faced lousy discrimination in his life on occasion but he is guilty of painting the settled community all with the same brush and yet he feels the travelling community is tarred with the same brush by the settled community. He gives a one sided 'poor us' load of blurb when interviewed on the matter.

    I admire what he has achieved as an actor but surely to god he can see that the way of life some of his peers are leading is completely backward and not in fitting with a modern society.


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  • #462
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    markodaly wrote: »
    At the core of it its the total lack of respect and value of education..
    ok, this is progress, we are finally drilling down into the reasons for the division.

    I agree with you that education, or lack of it, is at the core of the problem.

    Nevertheless, I disagree with you, if this is what you are saying, that it's both a voluntary and unilateral factor on behalf of travellers.

    Travellers don't look into the eyes of their newborns and think, 'how can I devise a scheme to hold back this child?'. Travellers are a product of their upbringing, just like all of us. They tend to be early school-leavers, and they tend to distrust the settled community as much as they are distrusted, for perfectly human reasons, on both sides.

    If I only had a few words to describe the crux of the problem, they would be this: we are all a product of our environment.

    Many settled children learn to distrust or sneer at traveller children from a very young age, and many traveller children learn to distrust or resent setlled people from a very young age.

    Yes, education is a solution, but weak educational attainment is not some sinister and voluntary choice on behalf of of traveller parents, in general.

    Just one more point...
    If traveller children are not educated to the same degree as other normal Irish children
    Traveller children are normal and they are Irish.

    Their behaviouur is abnormative, but they are normal children.
    Michael Tuohey wrote: »
    In fact, all urban gutter/facia/soffit work is done by Travellers
    The man who does our gutters has a son in the Veterinary College, and a daughter with a very well-paid job. He has a lovely house on the edge of town, and I must remember, the next time he calls, to congratulate him, because according to you, he is a traveller. He might not come back, mind.


  • #463
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,309 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

    Nevertheless, I disagree with you, if this is what you are saying, that it's both a voluntary and unilateral factor on behalf of travellers.

    .

    If it is not voluntary, then you are saying that it is involuntary, which you mean thats its either the state is at fault for the chronic lack of education standards for traveller children or it is the traveller culture itself that is at fault.


  • #464
    dd972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭dd972


    Right, end of thread, get the gays out.


  • #465
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    markodaly wrote: »
    If it is not voluntary, then you are saying that it is involuntary, which you mean thats its either the state is at fault for the chronic lack of education standards for traveller children or it is the traveller culture itself that is at fault.
    No, it's neither of those things.

    Each class in society has a determined consciousness which is theirs alone, formed by their social environment, which can never properly be understood by other classes, be we poor or rich, middle class or utterly destitute.

    If it were as simple as blaming 'the state' or increasing educational resources, this problem would have been solved decades ago.

    The reality, which most people seem to want to avoid, is that the problems within the traveller community are far too complex to be described in a neat soundbyte.


  • #466
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #467
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    BINGO!

    Finally, a perceptive and intelligent contributor to the thread. I thought I was going to have to post images of the plough and stars.

    Yes, my analysis of the problem is from a Marxist perspective, and I would imagine that yours is quite the contrary. So lets hear about your analysis and your solutions, as someone from an alternative viewpoint, who disagrees with the class consciousness viewpoint.

    I probably won't agree with you, but it will certainly improve the quality of the debate.


  • #468
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    BINGO!

    Finally, a perceptive and intelligent contributor to the thread. I thought I was going to have to post images of the plough and stars.

    Yes, my analysis of the problem is from a Marxist perspective, and I would imagine that yours is quite the contrary. So lets hear about your analysis and your solutions, as someone from an alternative viewpoint, who disagrees with the class consciousness viewpoint.

    I probably won't agree with you, but it will certainly improve the quality of the debate.


    We are still waiting for you to make an intelligent point. Talking absolute drivel. What blurb are you coming out with now? Christ almighty! :rolleyes:

    Marxism? That is hilarious. I wonder how those great advocates of Marxism the Soviets treated gypsies?


  • #469
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,316 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Yes, my analysis of the problem is from a Marxist perspective
    If memory serves me correct, Soviet Russia sterilized gypsy women?


  • #470
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #471
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    the_syco wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    It did indeed, and much more besides. I can scarcely imagine a more misguided regime.

    But I'm afraid you don't seem to understand the difference between Marx's dialectical materialism, and Stalin's reinterpretation of this phislosophy, which is widely considered to be both erroneous by modern and 'originialist' Marixsts?
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Well, I think I've spoken far too much on this thread, and all of my proposals have been enumerated so many times that I humbly suggest people are growing weary of hearing them.

    Do you have any suggestions, or shall it be more of the 'travellers are 100% to blame" nonsense?


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  • #472
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #473
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Lets start at the very beginning (it's a very good place to start).

    Human beings' consciousness is determined by their social existence, and not vice versa.

    Let it be observed, I did ask your proposals, since I think I'm talking too much, but you don't seem to want to talk about your proposals.


  • #474
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,316 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Marx would describe modern day travelers as lumpenproletariats.


  • #475
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    the_syco wrote: »
    Marx would describe modern day travelers as lumpenproletariats.
    Indeed he would, and he'd be quite right to do so. It would be quite legitimate to perceive travellers as a counter-revolutionary force, in the (absurd) event of some class revolution occurring. But then, so would most of us middle-class people on this thread.

    So what's your point?


  • #476
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,309 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    No, it's neither of those things.

    Each class in society has a determined consciousness which is theirs alone, formed by their social environment, which can never properly be understood by other classes, be we poor or rich, middle class or utterly destitute.

    If it were as simple as blaming 'the state' or increasing educational resources, this problem would have been solved decades ago.

    The reality, which most people seem to want to avoid, is that the problems within the traveller community are far too complex to be described in a neat soundbyte.

    So basically, after your numerous posts on the issue essentially absolving travellers of all responsibility on the plight they find themselves you say the problem is essentially unsolvable, as its the fault of the traveller consciousness that mainstream society either cannot hope to understand or fix.

    I am not even sure what your main bone of contention is anymore.


  • #477
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #478
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    markodaly wrote: »
    So basically, after your numerous posts on the issue essentially absolving travellers of all responsibility on the plight they find themselves you say the problem is essentially unsolvable, as its the fault of the traveller consciousness that mainstream society either cannot hope to understand or fix.

    I am not even sure what your main bone of contention is anymore.
    Perhaps your uncertaintly has arisen from your inability to understand what I wrote, in plain english?

    1. I have not absolved travellers of responsibility.
    2. The problem is not unexcogitable.
    3. Both mainstream society and the travellers, working in concert, can indeed fix this breakdown in mutual empathy.

    I am especially perplexed how you have begun your statement with the term "so, basically...", and then proceeded to lavishly misinterpret the clear language that I used, regarding the above points.

    How anybody could have misunderstood such plain language is beyond me.


  • #479
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    For some unknown reason I had hoped you'd be smarter than this.


  • #480
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,309 ✭✭✭✭markodaly




    The next Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov people.


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  • #481
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,309 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

    How anybody could have misunderstood such plain language is beyond me.

    To be honest, if your plain language was so plain, then were are numerous other posters questioning both the rationale and completeness of your posts

    This is especially true that you have had 70 posts in this very thread trying to explain your point in that oft used put down, plain language.

    If it were indeed so plain, why does it take 70 posts to try and explain it.
    Is this a 'Its not you, its me' situation?


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