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Landlord refuses to give back deposit

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Comments

  • #32
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Claw Hammer wrote: »

    Leases for longer than 12 months have to be in writing and signed by the party to be charged. The O/p only said he planned to stay. The LL did not reply. That is insufficient to hold the o/p to 12 months.

    Could you please provide some link to back up your statement that a tenancy of more than 12 months "have to be in writing". I cannot find any reference to this in the RTA, maybe it is there but I can't find it.

    What I did find though is lots of sites which state clearly that a written lease, though preferable, is not required. Among those sites is CA and Threshold, now I know neither is infallible, but as you have posted such an unequivocal statement, please back it up.

    https://www.threshold.ie/advice/seeking-private-rented-accommodation/do-i-have-to-sign-a-lease/


  • #33
    Lead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭Lead


    Can you all sort out your quotes please? It looks like you're talking to yourself.


  • #34
    nikkisclearout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 114 ✭✭nikkisclearout


    Claw Hammer wrote: »

    He didn't reply as regards the 12 months. You will find that if he wanted to sell within the 12 months, he would deny having ever agreed 12 month lease. He can't have his cake and eat it. He is probably not registered with the RTB either. The threat of a case will have him running for cover.

    The OP didn't say the landlord didn't reply re the 12 months he said the landlord never said anything about keeping the deposit if he moved out before the 12 months were up.


  • #35
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Lead wrote: »
    Can you all sort out your quotes please? It looks like you're talking to yourself.

    All fixed now :cool:


  • #36
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    OP, you appear to have agreed a 12 month lease with the landlord in your emails. In that case, you have two options.

    1. Assign the lease
    You may get a replacement tenant to take up the rest of your lease. In proposing this tenant, the landlord can agree and the remainder of your lease is discharged to the new tenant, or disagree and you are free to break your lease with the correct notice (4 weeks for <6 months) and without penalty.

    2. Walk away
    By just breaking the lease you are liable for costs for re-advertising, re-letting and lost rent. The landlord should show costs to you to justify any deductions from your deposit.


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  • #37
    Browney7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭Browney7


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    OP, you appear to have agreed a 12 month lease with the landlord in your emails. In that case, you have two options.

    1. Assign the lease
    You may get a replacement tenant to take up the rest of your lease. In proposing this tenant, the landlord can agree and the remainder of your lease is discharged to the new tenant, or disagree and you are free to break your lease with the correct notice (4 weeks for <6 months) and without penalty.

    2. Walk away
    By just breaking the lease you are liable for costs for re-advertising, re-letting and lost rent. The landlord should show costs to you to justify any deductions from your deposit.

    Would the RTB realistically conclude he has a 12 months lease on the basis of the phrase "plan on staying 12 months?" being contained in an email?


  • #38
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Browney7 wrote: »
    Would the RTB realistically conclude he has a 12 months lease on the basis of the phrase "plan on staying 12 months?" being contained in an email?

    I don't know, but if the tables were turned and the OP was being evicted after 4 months having already told the landlord they planned to stay for 12 months, most people would advise taking a dispute with the RTB.


  • #39
    BnB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭BnB


    Alternative idea - Why don't you talk to the landlord and offer to find someone to take the room. If you have someone ready to move in the day that you move out then a) He won't lose any rent and b) he won't have the hassle of finding someone.


  • #40
    CorkBoi82
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 ✭CorkBoi82


    I talked again with landlord over the phone, he will try to get someone new in my place and deduct rent from my deposit until he gets someone new.

    Sounds fair to me.

    Thank you all for advice.


  • #41
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    davo10 wrote: »
    Could you please provide some link to back up your statement that a tenancy of more than 12 months "have to be in writing".
    https://www.threshold.ie/advice/seeking-private-rented-accommodation/do-i-have-to-sign-a-lease/
    Section 4.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1860/act/154/enacted/en/print.html


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  • #42
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Section 4.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1860/act/154/enacted/en/print.html

    Doesn't section 5 go on to state what happens after the expiration of the term agreed in writing? ADDED: just spotted OP hasn't been there that long and there was no initial agreement in writing.

    Have those particular acts been amended since 1860 :eek:


  • #43
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Graham wrote: »
    Doesn't section 5 go on to state what happens after the expiration of the term agreed in writing? ADDED: just spotted OP hasn't been there that long and there was no initial agreement in writing.

    Have those particular acts been amended since 1860 :eek:

    That Act has been amended and there have been some repeals but it is still the basis of L & T law in this jurisdiction. The RTA 2004 left that section in place although it referred to other parts of the 1860 Act.


  • #44
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Section 4.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1860/act/154/enacted/en/print.html

    How is this relevant to the OP though? The fixed term wasn't for more than 12 months so section 4 of Deasy's Act shouldn't come into play, right? (I'm not a lawyer so this is entirely a layman's view)


  • #45
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    How is this relevant to the OP though? The fixed term wasn't for more than 12 months so section 4 of Deasy's Act shouldn't come into play, right? (I'm not a lawyer so this is entirely a layman's view)
    If the landlord wants to claim a 1 year lease he will have to show a written lease.


  • #46
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    If the landlord wants to claim a 1 year lease he will have to show a written lease.

    Does he? I read it as more than 12 months. You even said it yourself
    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Leases for longer than 12 months have to be in writing and signed by the party to be charged.

    and the relevant part of Section 4
    "any definite period of time not being from year to year or any lesser period"

    None of this is relevant to the OP as they have already resolved their issue with the landlord but I'm interested in your interpretation for future advice.


  • #47
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Does he? I read it as more than 12 months. You even said it yourself



    and the relevant part of Section 4
    "any definite period of time not being from year to year or any lesser period"

    None of this is relevant to the OP as they have already resolved their issue with the landlord but I'm interested in your interpretation for future advice.

    Lesser period means week to week, month to month etc. Year to year means an annualised rent paid quarterly. The o/p is paying monthly. The landlord can't infer a years lease without written evidence.


  • #48
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Lesser period means week to week, month to month etc. Year to year means an annualised rent paid quarterly. The o/p is paying monthly. The landlord can't infer a years lease without written evidence.

    You're either skipping over the explanation or I'm not getting it. It says year to year or lesser. Therefore a year lease needn't be in writing, you even said so yourself. I don't get where the paid quarterly comes from either.


  • #49
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    You're either skipping over the explanation or I'm not getting it. It says year to year or lesser. Therefore a year lease needn't be in writing, you even said so yourself. I don't get where the paid quarterly comes from either.

    A lease from year to year is inferred from the payment frequency. Pay monthly, it is a lease from month to month. If the landlord claims a years lease and he is not being paid quarterly it must be in writing.


  • #50
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    A lease from year to year is inferred from the payment frequency. Pay monthly, it is a lease from month to month. If the landlord claims a years lease and he is not being paid quarterly it must be in writing.

    But it's not inferred from the payment frequency in this instance. It's agreed as 12 months from the initial discussions between the OP and the landlord.


  • #51
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    But it's not inferred from the payment frequency in this instance. It's agreed as 12 months from the initial discussions between the OP and the landlord.

    That is the very issue in dispute. Was 12 months agreed from the outset. The o/p only made a declaration of intent. I am planning to stay 12 months. He did not say I undertake to stay 12 months. The essence of a legally binding agreement is offer and acceptance. There must be an unconditional offer and an unqualified acceptance. What we are told here is that there was a statement of intent which is a conditional offer. The landlord did not signify any assent at all. If it is for 12 months it must be in writing in order to be enforceable.


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  • #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,713 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    That is the very issue in dispute. Was 12 months agreed from the outset. The o/p only made a declaration of intent. I am planning to stay 12 months. He did not say I undertake to stay 12 months. The essence of a legally binding agreement is offer and acceptance. There must be an unconditional offer and an unqualified acceptance. What we are told here is that there was a statement of intent which is a conditional offer. The landlord did not signify any assent at all. If it is for 12 months it must be in writing in order to be enforceable.

    A word of mouth lease is valid it doesn't even have to be in writing.


  • #53
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    That is the very issue in dispute. Was 12 months agreed from the outset. The o/p only made a declaration of intent. I am planning to stay 12 months. He did not say I undertake to stay 12 months. The essence of a legally binding agreement is offer and acceptance. There must be an unconditional offer and an unqualified acceptance. What we are told here is that there was a statement of intent which is a conditional offer. The landlord did not signify any assent at all. If it is for 12 months it must be in writing in order to be enforceable.

    Very well, I think it would come down to subjective interpretation if it got that far. As I previously posited, many people's opinions would change if the roles were reversed and the landlord was trying to end the agreement early despite the tenant saying they intended to stay for 12 months.

    Again, I don't see how Deasy's Act comes into play in this particular instance as the supposed agreement doesn't exceed 12 months, but I take your point about the ambiguity of a lease being inferred from what the OP has said.

    Nonetheless, the OP has resolved the situation with their landlord. All's well that ends well.


  • #54
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Catalina Hot Litterbug wrote: »
    A word of mouth lease is valid it doesn't even have to be in writing.

    It may be valid but the question is whether or not it is enforceable.


  • #55
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Very well, I think it would come down to subjective interpretation if it got that far. As I previously posited, many people's opinions would change if the roles were reversed and the landlord was trying to end the agreement early despite the tenant saying they intended to stay for 12 months.

    Again, I don't see how Deasy's Act comes into play in this particular instance as the supposed agreement doesn't exceed 12 months, but I take your point about the ambiguity of a lease being inferred from what the OP has said.

    Nonetheless, the OP has resolved the situation with their landlord. All's well that ends well.

    A contract cannot be inferred subjectively.


  • #56
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    ....If it is for 12 months it must be in writing in order to be enforceable.

    threshold and Citizens information websites say there is no legal obligation on LL to provide a lease or for tenants to sign a lease. which is it?


  • #57
    Browney7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭Browney7


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    threshold and Citizens information websites say there is no legal obligation on LL to provide a lease or for tenants to sign a lease. which is it?

    A Lease agreement does not automatically infer a fixed term. If no lease is signed the tenancies act applies.


  • #58
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Browney7 wrote: »
    A Lease agreement does not automatically infer a fixed term. If no lease is signed the tenancies act applies.

    No, but do you know what does? "I plan to stay for 12 months". (It's right there in the first post). That "infers" both the tenancy and the duration. The RTA applies to all residential tenancies irrespective of whether they are written or verbal. Honestly this is the silliest thread on boards, the op has already posted that he/she has sorted it out.


  • #59
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    And there it shall end since we're running in circles.


This discussion has been closed.
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