Should religious indoctrination of children be illegal?

Gerrup Outta Dat! · 13-10-2017 09:21PM #1

Indoctrinating a child is the same as indoctrinating a mentally-disabled adult. It should be illegal. The child spends his or her childhood attending (a usually Catholic) school with little or no alternative choice.

I am 26 years old, and when I was growing up there was little or no other choices in my vicinity having grown up in a small-ish town on the outskirts of Dublin. The Roman Catholic Church has autonomy over most schools in Ireland.religion

An over-subscribed school often uses religion as a filtering process to filter out candidates. A horrific process if you ask me.

In my opinion, any school that receives even a penny of state funds should be forbidden from subscribing to any particular religion and religion should only be taught as a general subject for a minimal amount of time (from a neutral cultural education point of view). No class time should be wasted on Communion or Confirmation or first confession. If the parents really feel so strongly about religion, then they should bring their own kids to make their first confession, Communion and get confirmed.

Bringing up a kid to believe in a God is a horrid form of abuse.

Duckworth_Luas · 13-10-2017 09:25PM

Apparently there's half a million pagans in the country, so something's not working.

13-10-2017 09:28PM

Yes, as long as consumerist indoctrination of children is also made illegal.

13-10-2017 09:29PM

Oooohhh..another mouthy atheist thread..how cutting edge..

Gerrup Outta Dat! · 13-10-2017 09:31PM

I'm atheist - indoctrination should not be illegal.

Deleted User wrote: »

Oooohhh..another mouthy atheist thread..how cutting edge..

I saw your ninja edit

Your secret is safe with me.

Are Am Eye · 13-10-2017 09:32PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOXVuV2fckY

SafeSurfer · 13-10-2017 10:36PM

There is more indoctrination going on on screens in tiny hands than in every church or school religion class in the country. Ban the internet too and lock everybody under in a box until their 18th birthday.

Flincher · 13-10-2017 10:49PM

This militant atheist approach doesn't do you any favours. What you're describing is the status quo, so it's nonsensical and inflammatory to suggest that it should be illegal.

I also don't agree that the current system is indoctrination. Obviously it's biased towards the Catholic Church, and I also received a Catholic education. That didn't stop me or a large amount of my friends making the decision to ditch the faith around 15/16.

That said, I agree that we need to get to a situation where religion is taught from a neutral viewpoint. I think it's important that children have a broad understanding of different religions, especially as classrooms become more multicultural. Parents have a choice to educate their children of their own particular beliefs and prepare them for sacraments outside school on their own time.

B.A._Baracus · 13-10-2017 10:53PM

Dude, bring it to the atheist forum or something.
Too many anti-religious threads in after hours. It's the same ol thing.

beefburrito · 13-10-2017 11:00PM

Oh no not another religious theme.

Sure they will have to get rid of folklore, ladybird books, Santa Claus, tooth fairy....

Atheism is so like last year....uncool and boring....

o1s1n · 13-10-2017 11:04PM

I'm atheist - indoctrination should not be illegal.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

There is more indoctrination going on on screens in tiny hands than in every church or school religion class in the country. Ban the internet too and lock everybody under in a box until their 18th birthday.

Unfortunately there's a bit of a correlation between banning sources of knowledge like the internet and people reverting to religion...

SafeSurfer · 13-10-2017 11:05PM

I love the dismissal of the sky fairy when not one of us has the first clue where the universe came from and we only understood a minute fraction of what makes up the universe.
The sky fairy is just as valid a creation story as whatever you believe.

SafeSurfer · 13-10-2017 11:06PM

o1s1n wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

There is more indoctrination going on on screens in tiny hands than in every church or school religion class in the country. Ban the internet too and lock everybody under in a box until their 18th birthday.

Unfortunately there's a bit of a correlation between banning sources of knowledge like the internet and people reverting to religion...

Like in North Korea?

o1s1n · 13-10-2017 11:09PM

I'm atheist - indoctrination should not be illegal.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I love the dismissal of the sky fairy when not one of us has the first clue where the universe came from and we only understood a minute fraction of what makes up the universe.
The sky fairy is just as valid a creation story as whatever you believe.

No, it's really not.

Striving for truth and the answers behind life, the universe and everything is infinitely more beneficial to mankind and leads to society progressing and making new discoveries.

Sitting on our hands with 'the answer to everything' ie 'the sky fairy' is archaic and gets us nowhere.

endacl · 13-10-2017 11:09PM

Depends, OP. How will the non-indoctrinated merge onto motorways compared to the indoctrinated? More data required before I can confidently respond to your poll.

SafeSurfer · 13-10-2017 11:14PM

o1s1n wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I love the dismissal of the sky fairy when not one of us has the first clue where the universe came from and we only understood a minute fraction of what makes up the universe.
The sky fairy is just as valid a creation story as whatever you believe.

No, it's really not.

Striving for truth and the answers behind life, the universe and everything is infinitely more beneficial to mankind and leads to society progressing and making new discoveries.

Sitting on our hands with 'the answer to everything' ie 'the sky fairy' is archaic and gets us nowhere.

Religious societies made one or two scientific discoveries did they not? Is it possible that sky fairy believers have made more scientific discoveries which were beneficial to mankind than non sky fairy believers?

Pero_Bueno · 13-10-2017 11:21PM

I'm atheist - indoctrination should not be illegal.

Absolutely - from the pagan thread posted by @Je_suis_Jean

Sums it up perfectly.

Permabear · 13-10-2017 11:36PM

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B.A._Baracus · 13-10-2017 11:37PM

o1s1n wrote: »

No, it's really not.

Striving for truth and the answers behind life, the universe and everything is infinitely more beneficial to mankind and leads to society progressing and making new discoveries.

Sitting on our hands with 'the answer to everything' ie 'the sky fairy' is archaic and gets us nowhere.

No it's not really? hmmmm.....
It's interesting you say truths and answers.... because what you really mean is facts. Which are a good thing. However without facts how can anyone say someone is right or wrong.

One day the how / why / even maybe who created the universe will be answered and it will be supported by facts. Until then believe what you want to believe but let others believe the same.

OldMrBrennan83 · 13-10-2017 11:39PM

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Pero_Bueno · 13-10-2017 11:55PM

I'm atheist - indoctrination should not be illegal.

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Sounds great in theory but when other people are bringing up their kids to hate and look down on non believers, and are seeding the next generation of extremists then we have a problem - yet society looks the other way and labels people with genuine concerns about this as "bigots" :rolleyes:

entropi · 14-10-2017 12:22AM

If people want religion, let them seek it out when they are adults and able to comprehend the information before them, and the reasons why or why they shouldn't be religious. There should definitely be no religion studies in schools, leave that to classes run by a relevant religion the adult has an interest in, in their place of worship.

uch · 14-10-2017 12:24AM

Stick yer pole up yer arsé, but Children should be allowed make their own mind up as regards their religion or lack of

MadDog76 · 14-10-2017 01:17AM

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If I could thank this post a million times I would ..........

suicide_circus · 14-10-2017 05:00AM

No because the state is not competent to make that determination

14-10-2017 05:17AM

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

Bringing up a kid to believe in a sky-fairy is a horrid form of abuse.

Ah it's not really.

Invoking child abuse does your position no favours, it just looks hysterical. I suspect no child who was a victim of abuse would say 'twas no worse than mass or religion class.

RobertKK · 14-10-2017 05:29AM

Religion can help people...but maybe helping people should be illegal.
I say whatever works to get a person through this life, once they aren’t harming others is fine.
I have seen people’s personal faith helping them through bad times.

dr.fuzzenstein · 14-10-2017 06:37AM

I'm atheist - indoctrination should not be illegal.

Patww79 wrote: »

Just worry about your own kids and let other people do likewise.

He is worried about his own kids, i.e. that they will have to be baptised to make it into a school, that there will be no alternative to religious studies, that they will be looked upon with a bit of a frown if they don't get confirmation (or whatever) or are regularly seen at mass.
Whatever about religion, but that crap has to stop.
Any school that receives state money should be a non religious institute.
If the bible thumpers want a school where you have to be baptised to get in, are encouraged to go to church, get confirmation, do 4 hours religious studies a week, then why don't they open a private, religious school, completely paid for by the members. You can have teaching staff completely made up of members of the clergy, crucifix on the wall, class starts with prayer and science is taught with a caution from the Big Man in the sky and only the bare minimum.

The current practice is indefensible. A large proportion of people are only Catholic on paper. Only a matter of time before Ireland is dragged from the 50's into the present as far as education is concerned.

14-10-2017 06:48AM

Religion out of schools, French/German/Spanish/Mandarin language classes in from the get go.

We're shocking as a nation when it comes to being bilingual. Anytime we go abroad we want English spoken to us yet anytime tourists venture over here we never adapt.

14-10-2017 06:49AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Any school that receives state money should be a non religious institute.
If the bible thumpers want a school where you have to be baptised to get in, are encouraged to go to church, get confirmation, do 4 hours religious studies a week, then why don't they open a private, religious school, completely paid for by the members.

Should it not be the other way around.

If you don't like the ethos of a school in a building provided by the Church, or a school building on land donated by the Church, go build your own.

If people who recoil like Vampires at the mere sight of a crucifix want a school devoid of all religion, well stay out of buildings provided by religious orders and open private non religious schools, completely paid for by the members.

sheesh · 14-10-2017 06:58AM

well bringing up a child is indoctrination you teach it how to live with others and give it a view (the parent's) of the world. If it was not for the fact that we are indoctrinated into using toilets we would be just ****ting everywhere.

My point is this we have been teaching/ indoctrinating in religious ways for generations and for the most part it has been fine. your idea that not teaching this will lead to a fantastic new era of progress and enlightenment is a bit simplistic at best it also removes one of the fundamental freedoms of a modern society and that is freedom of religion.

For the life of me I cannot think of an atheist culture...

DeanAustin · 14-10-2017 07:36AM

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

Indoctrinating a child is the same as indoctrinating a mentally-disabled adult. It should be illegal. The child spends his or her childhood attending (a usually Catholic) school with little or no alternative choice.

I am 26 years old, and when I was growing up there was little or no other choices in my vicinity having grown up in a small-ish town on the outskirts of Dublin. The Roman Catholic Church has autonomy over most schools in Ireland.religion

An over-subscribed school often uses religion as a filtering process to filter out candidates. A horrific process if you ask me.

In my opinion, any school that receives even a penny of state funds should be forbidden from subscribing to any particular religion and religion should only be taught as a general subject for a minimal amount of time (from a neutral cultural education point of view). No class time should be wasted on Communion or Confirmation or first confession. If the parents really feel so strongly about religion, then they should bring their own kids to make their first confession, Communion and get confirmed.

Bringing up a kid to believe in a sky-fairy is a horrid form of abuse.

I rolled my eyes when I saw the thread title but was with you all the way through the post until you used the term "sky fairy". That sort of terminology is so disrespectful.

I don't believe in God but I don't believe in belittling people who do. Using words like that makes you look like a c**t. Cut it out.

suicide_circus · 14-10-2017 07:42AM

DeanAustin wrote: »

I rolled my eyes when I saw the thread title but was with you all the way through the post until you used the term "sky fairy". That sort of terminology is so disrespectful.

I don't believe in God but I don't believe in belittling people who do. Using words like that makes you look like a c**t. Cut it out.

Youre making the mistake of implying that a criticism of religion equates to a criticism of its followers. Ideas must be open to scrutiny and ridicule, particularly ideas which make such bold, outlandish and illogical claims as religions tend to make.
This is where you get absurd and sinister phrases like "islamophobia" which is designed to close down any attempt to critically examine Islam by making it a hate crime against its adherents.

MRnotlob606 · 14-10-2017 07:46AM

o1s1n wrote: »

No, it's really not.

Striving for truth and the answers behind life, the universe and everything is infinitely more beneficial to mankind and leads to society progressing and making new discoveries.

Sitting on our hands with 'the answer to everything' ie 'the sky fairy' is archaic and gets us nowhere.

Begrudging the central figure in someone's religions as "the sky fairy" isn't very intelligent either though is it?

No its quite childish actually and stinks of superciliousness

MRnotlob606 · 14-10-2017 07:48AM

Using language like "indoctrination" isn't exactly impartial. I think you just have a confirmation bias.

suicide_circus · 14-10-2017 07:49AM

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

Begrudging the central figure in someone's religions as "the sky fairy" isn't very intelligent either though is it?

No its quite childish actually and stinks of superciliousness

It's not particularly mature or helpful but it is not an attack of the people who follow the religion. This is a critical distinction which must be pointed out again and again.

The_Valeyard · 14-10-2017 07:54AM

I should probably make a poll,

Q. How big a c*nt are militant atheists online?

Sue Pa Key Pa · 14-10-2017 07:55AM

Fully agree OP. No religious indoctrination by parents or school . In fact, why should they be allowed dictate what their child eats, when they go to bed, if they go to school or how to behave in public. We have a Minister for Children and I urge every toddler to make their feelings known to her

The_Valeyard · 14-10-2017 07:57AM

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

. We have a Minister for Children and I urge every toddler to make their feelings known to her

Sandboxes and free crayons for everyone!!

beefburrito · 14-10-2017 07:59AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's not particularly mature or helpful but it is not an attack of the people who follow the religion. This is a critical distinction which must be pointed out again and again.

I ain't religious and I ain't no Atheist as I said before Atheism is an offshoot from the Abrahamic religion's....

There's plenty of posts on board's slagging off religion and woo etc

There's even a page in the A+A forum dedicated to all the negative aspects of following religion and anything superstitious or woo.

Should parents not indoctrinate kids into rural life or farming, is that abusive....

Should the fact that one gets their precious pumpkin into fishing at an early age be considered indoctrination....

Jesus wept

DeanAustin · 14-10-2017 08:02AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Youre making the mistake of implying that a criticism of religion equates to a criticism of its followers. Ideas must be open to scrutiny and ridicule, particularly ideas which make such bold, outlandish and illogical claims as religions tend to make.
This is where you get absurd and sinister phrases like "islamophobia" which is designed to close down any attempt to critically examine Islam by making it a hate crime against its adherents.

Behave yourself. Using the term "Sky fairy" is done with the intention of belittling religion and those that follow it. I've no problem with religion being open to scrutiny but have a massive problem with it being subject to throwaway and condescending terms like "Sky fairy".

suicide_circus · 14-10-2017 08:06AM

DeanAustin wrote: »

Behave yourself. Using the term "Sky fairy" is done with the intention of belittling religion and those that follow it. I've no problem with religion being open to scrutiny but have a massive problem with it being subject to throwaway and condescending terms like "Sky fairy".

You won't be shutting me down with that garbage

DeanAustin · 14-10-2017 08:08AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

You won't be shutting me down with that garbage

What's the smiley for?

Gerrup Outta Dat! · 14-10-2017 08:18AM

I'm atheist - indoctrination should not be illegal.

Deleted User wrote: »

Should it not be the other way around.

If you don't like the ethos of a school in a building provided by the Church, or a school building on land donated by the Church, go build your own.

If you had the brain capacity to understand the thread you’ll see that my problem is with schools that receive STATE FUNDING being able to reject a huge demographic of the population based on religion (or lack thereof).

Irreligiousness (if that’s even a word) should be the default ethos of any school receiving state funding, if parents don’t like that then THEY should build a school for little Johnny. I doubt they would though. The majority of “Catholics” are hypocrites in this country anyway. Blindly ticking Catholic on the census and only attending Christmas Mass etc and only getting first Communion for the day out.

And the non-religious (and other religious) community have already built their own schools. They’re called Educate Together Schools, but these are woefully uncommon as state-funded “Catholic” schools.

pjohnson · 14-10-2017 08:20AM

I thought "atheism" would be too mainstream for many at this point.

beefburrito · 14-10-2017 08:26AM

pjohnson wrote: »

I thought "atheism" would be too mainstream for many at this point.

Well they've only one Identity lol

beefburrito · 14-10-2017 08:27AM

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

If you had the brain capacity to understand the thread you’ll see that my problem is with schools that receive STATE FUNDING being able to reject a huge demographic of the population based on religion (or lack thereof).

Irreligiousness (if that’s even a word) should be the default ethos of any school receiving state funding, if parents don’t like that then THEY should build a school for little Johnny. I doubt they would though. The majority of “Catholics” are hypocrites in this country anyway. Blindly ticking Catholic on the census and only attending Christmas Mass etc and only getting first Communion for the day out.

And the non-religious (and other religious) community have already built their own schools. They’re called Educate Together Schools, but these are woefully uncommon as state-funded “Catholic” schools.

This is what you call contempt prior to investigation "smiley"

beauf · 14-10-2017 08:41AM

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

If you had the brain capacity to understand the thread you’ll see that my problem is with schools that receive STATE FUNDING being able to reject a huge demographic of the population based on religion (or lack thereof).. .

You could have just made the thread about state funding and admission policies instead of being obtuse and then name calling and shouting. You are drowning out your own message.

Maybe kids should not be forced to go to school until they want to. Nothing more barbaric than school itself. End up having to binge watch tele tubbies box set.

beauf · 14-10-2017 08:42AM

beefburrito wrote: »

Well they've only one Identity lol

I'm not sure if they really believe in it...

c_man · 14-10-2017 08:53AM

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

Irreligiousness (if that’s even a word) should be the default ethos of any school receiving state funding, if parents don’t like that then THEY should build a school for little Johnny. I doubt they would though. The majority of “Catholics” are hypocrites in this country anyway.

.........

And the non-religious (and other religious) community have already built their own schools. They’re called Educate Together Schools, but these are woefully uncommon as state-funded “Catholic” schools.

Wait, so Catholics (hypothetically) not building schools is proof of their hypocrisy. *shakes fist at those damn Catholics*

But actual very low levels of the non-religious communities building schools is the fault of the state.

Gotcha.

Gerrup Outta Dat! · 14-10-2017 08:54AM

I'm atheist - indoctrination should not be illegal.

beauf wrote: »

Maybe kids should not be forced to go to school until they want to. Nothing more barbaric than school itself.

Moot argument and bad comparison. Most education is fact and is important for life and life skills. An education should be a human right. Religious indoctrination is not.

Should religious indoctrination of children be illegal?

Should indoctrination of children be illegal? 193 votes

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